Infoabsorption

I started having doubts about the organization of TWI sometime during my sophomore year of high school (1984-85) but at that time I still bought into the fallacy that VPW had the most accurate interpretation of the Bible and held him in high regard. From personal observations I noticed that things had deteriorated shortly thereafter and by my senior year of high school (1987) I wanted nothing to do with TWI, although I still participated so that I would not upset my mother. When my mother declined the loyalty oath in 1989 there was such a release and sense of freedom that I began reading from a variety of sources outside of TWI. It was exhilarating to say the least to be able to read from other perspectives. As time went on and my own personal research continued, I began to take the Bible less literally. I've come to the conclusion that the bible is mostly symbolic or figurative but true nonetheless. I still believe in the basic message that God has provided a means of redemption of mankind from it's fallen state. Regarding doctrinal changes... the biggest change I've made since leaving TWI is my switch to partial preterism.

Twinky, I think you are right about orderliness which ultimately comes from God and in a fallen world some form of government needs to be in place to promote peace and prevent chaos. I disagree with the Anarchists although I've had some interesting discussions with some of them.

"I think Romans 13 is addressing Christians in the context of whatever government they live under - for conscience sake - which again I could be wrong but I take that to mean I should obey the government as long as they do not direct me to do something in violation of the principles of my faith. Again - not trying to be repetitive- but my previous post did list some passages where believers did go against government wishes for conscience sake. " This may very well have been Paul's original meaning. It seems he was speaking in general terms but didn't address the exceptions such as violating a command of God, being asked to commit an immoral act etc. I haven't read this section of Romans in years and forgot all about it. So now I'm re-learning. Here is an interesting commentary that addresses exactly what is being discussed on this thread: https://bible.org/seriespage/26-laws-land-romans-131-14

T-Bone, here is a parallel verse that we all have read a hundred times before: Matt. 4 :8-9 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” I believe that dominion ended near 70CE. Nonetheless, at the time Paul made these statements, the fallen angels had dominion over the gentile nations. It appears Paul was instructing Christians to obey the governing authorities and that they are God servants etc. I understand completely why this would present some confusion. I am confused by it as well.

Could someone elaborate on this? I had no idea there was an attempt to re-film PFAL.

Hi T-Bone. Are the authorities Paul was referring to governmental authorities? Church authorities? Spiritual authorities? Some Christian organizations interpret the "authorities" as governmental. The point I was trying to make is simply that these verses are confusing to some Christians. Reading on down to verse 6 it appears to be governmental: "6 This is also why you pay taxes",etc. Referring to Israel's theocracy perhaps? My favorite verse in this chapter is 11: " And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed."

Those verses in Romans present a conundrum for Christians no doubt. Here is something else to consider that makes this even more confusing: at the time Paul made these statements didn't Satan and the rest of the fallen angels have dominion over the gentile nations? Surely God isn't telling Christians to obey the dark side...so I'm leaning toward Twinkey's explanation that it isn't governmental authorities that God is instructing Christian's to obey. DWBH has an interesting perspective on this... that these verses are simply Paul's opinion and not God-breathed.

I vaguely remember shortly after LCM's ouster that there was some acknowledgement of VPW's shortcomings among some former TWIers. I'm talking about the ones who were still fond of VPW. They made comments along the lines of " I didn't care for his flesh but he sure could teach some hot Word!" Must be the cult of personality phenomena. Not just anyone can pull these things off. Here is an interesting read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

I recently listened to an interview with Mark Biltz who was the 1st to discover the blood moon phenomena that occurred during the Jewish feast days in 2014 & 2015. In that interview he mentioned that a total solar eclipse occurred over Europe in 1914 right at the beginning of World War 1. Guess what date in 1914 that occurred? August 21st! Check out this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_eclipse_of_August_21,_1914 Just a coincidence? On June 8th 1918 another total solar eclipse occurred but that time over the USA. The path it took is very similar to the path of the eclipse that will occur on Monday. https://eclipsewise.com/solar/SEgmap/1901-2000/SE1918Jun08Tgmap.html In 1918 during WW1 the USA had the most casualties during that time. Another coincidence? I don't believe this has anything to do with Rev. 12 but it seems Someone is trying to get our attention. Is a major war about to break out?

revvel, Do you see Luke 21:8-19 as first century fulfillment also?

TLC, Here https://www.preteristarchive.com/lloyd-dale-a-different-preterist-perspective-2002/ is the closest thing I could find to my position regarding the millennium. This should clear up some confusion since my position differs slightly from the typical partial preterist position. Also Lloyd Dale is much more articulate than myself in explaining this position to non-preterists.

revvel, I just want to point out something mentioned in Luke 21 and how it parallels the passage that you mentioned in Luke 4 where Christ quoted Isaiah 61: 1,2 but left out the last part of verse 2 about the "day of vengeance." Here is Luke 21 verses 20 thru 23: 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. I could be wrong but most people seem to agree that these passages refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Notice verse 22.

If the phrase "1000 years" was written somewhere within Isaiah chapters 11 & 65 I would say you have a good case. Isaiah 65:17 states: “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind. The time period of Isaiah 65:17 appears to be the "new heavens & earth" not the 1000 years. I remember years ago reading about Jewish symbolism that Lambs symbolize Israelites and Wolves symbolize Gentiles. I think the old testament prophecies in some cases have been taken literally which has distorted the original meaning. I could go on and on so to make a long story short I'm not convinced that Isaiah 11 is referring to the 1000 years. If it is that wouldn't change my beliefs because I don't see the 1000(symbolic number) year reign as happening here on earth. I believe that the kingdom began during the destruction of Jerusalem & Temple(70AD) where a mass resurrection occurred(1st resurrection of Rev. 20) and the Saints took possession of the Kingdom (Dan. 7). Christ returned in the 66-70AD time period in the clouds above Jerusalem which was a judgement coming as well. Hopefully I have the time to post the verses in the new testament where the apostles were expecting a soon return of Christ in their lifetime and no they weren't intentionally deceived by God.

Sometimes when I'm in a hurry I don't write in such a way that would make my replies clearer to the reader. Your question to me was this: " Then I don't see what or why you think Israel is either being favored or being prepared for anything (however you care to think of it.)" I believe Gog & Magog to be a future event which is one of the things Israel may be prepared for. It had nothing to do with my 1st sentence about Israel being "saved". I guess I'm old school where being saved to me simply refers to the new birth, born again, etc. TLC, are you a lawyer by trade?

huh? Universalist ? I didn't mean that every singe Jew now alive will believe. I was speaking(or writing) in general terms. Apparently there are some orthodox Jews in Israel coming around and accepting Christ. I've heard a few stories along those lines.

I see the Book of Daniel as fulfilled. The prophecies given to Daniel point to the end of the Law age. That is why in Matt. 24 Christ made a reference to The Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place(Dan.9) in reply to the disciples questions about the temple being destroyed and the end of the world(Gr. aiōnos) meaning "age" not the Greek word kosmos. So at 70 AD the end of age of the Law was finalized with the destruction of the sanctuary(temple). 30AD - 70AD was a transition period. God gave Israel an approx. 40 year window to change it's ways. The disciples connected the destruction of the temple to Christ's coming(parousia) and the end of the age. They heard Jesus speak of the destruction of the temple and his coming before but during that conversation recorded in Matt. 24 the disciples wanted more detail. Now getting to your question on my views of the return of Christ. Us Preterists disagree on this just as much as futurists disagree. I'm a rarity when it comes to Partial Preterism. Most Partial Preterists are post-millennial meaning Christ returns in final judgement at the end of the millennium and during that return the resurrections and judgements occur. I believe there are 2 comings or returns which includes a resurrection with each coming. 1 at the beginning of the millennium and 1 at the end. The 1st one occurred during the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD. In Matthew 24:30 you get a glimpse of that. In Daniel 12 verses 1&2 a resurrection occurs at a time of great distress of Daniel's people(66-70AD). In Daniel 7:9-10 thrones are set in place and thousands and thousands stand before the Lord and the court was seated etc. Judgement was pronounced in favor of the holy people and they possessed the kingdom at the time the 11th horn(Titus) of the 4th beast(Rome) oppresses the holy people(Israel) for a time, times, and half a time(31/2 years). The beginning of the Roman attack on Israel to the destruction of Jerusalem from 66-70AD was 3 1/2 years. Looking at Rev. 20 Satan is seized and bound for a thousand years. John then describes thrones and describes the souls of the martyrs of the Beast(pre-70AD Rome). They came to life and reign with Christ for 1000 years. There is a lot written in the history books about the martyrs of Rome during this time period. Now look at Rev 20 verse 5: 5 "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection." The 1st resurrection occurred during the time of great distress of Israel where the temple is destroyed(70AD). I don't see any of this as future. In Revelation 1:1 within the prologue John states: " 1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place." In our future(Rev. 20:7-15) Satan is released for a short while Gog & Magog Forces of evil surrounding the camp of God's people Fire coming down out of heaven(Christ's return in final judgement) Satan thrown into the lake of fire(where the Beast and False prophet already are...these fallen angles were judged at 70AD) Great White Throne Judgement (2nd resurrection) New Heavens & Earth(Rev. 21) "Then I don't see what or why you think Israel is either being favored or being prepared for anything (however you care to think of it.)" I believe modern day Israel will ultimately believe on Christ and be saved. Also Gog & Magog.

TLC stated: "You sound undecided, which seems quite unusual even for a "partial Preterist." We no longer need a temple or temple services, but God brought Israel back as a nation state for a reason, so no I don't buy into replacement theology. And, I can't follow the reasoning behind why you think the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled must happen exactly 29 years after the start of the restoration of the nation of Israel. " In Luke 21:24 it is referring specifically to the city of Jerusalem. Israel reclaimed the eastern part of Jerusalem in 1967 during the 6 day war but 1948 was the beginning of the restoration even though Jerusalem was added 29 years later. I'm not one to split hairs so that is why I stated "depending on how you look at it." Evidently you think that God is now dealing with Israel favorably. While I might be inclined to agree with the "now dealing with Israel favorably" part of your statement, I'd be interested to hear what sort of justification or further explanation(s) you think goes along with that. I was referring to the destruction of Israel and Jerusalem in 70AD as judgement for a number of things such as rejecting Christ and corruption of the temple system. That is why Christ said in John 2:16 "make not my Father's house a house of merchandise". I seriously doubt there will be a future judgement on Israel where the current Jerusalem and a 3rd Temple will be destroyed all over again. I just don't buy it. Furthermore, if you retain the nation of Israel as being essential to the fulfillment of certain prophecies, what aspect(s) of your "partial Preterist" position do you see as being incompatible with mid Acts dispensationism? In my opinion Gog & Magog is it. Like Duncan McKenzie I see the Gog & Magog invasion as happening in our future, but not the destruction of a 3rd temple. The city and sanctuary that was prophesied to be destroyed in Daniel 9 was Jerusalem & the 2nd temple in 70AD not a coming 3rd temple. In Daniel 9 verse 25 it mentions the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple to replace the 1st temple that had been destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BC(secular dating). In the following verse (26) it says that "The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary." If this is future why not mention the 2nd temple being destroyed in 70AD(by Titus who was the son of the Roman Emperor and thus a prince) and then the building of the 3rd temple in the distant future? The futurists claim that the people of the ruler who will come is the coming "Antichrist" who will destroy a future 3rd temple, but to completely ignore the 2nd temple being destroyed that was described as being rebuilt in the previous verse is pretty confusing to say the least. Not sure about "mid-Acts dispensationlism" but dispensationalists in general have added a lot of stuff to the Gentiles being included in the new birth which is basically what Paul was talking about back then. Here is something interesting to consider. From the time of Daniel to the coming of Christ to the destruction of the 2nd temple we are looking at 500 years or so. In Daniel 12:9 Daniel is told the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. In Revelation 22:10 John is told NOT to seal up the words of the prophecy because the "time is at hand". I don't know about others but "time is at hand" to me means near or soon. But I guess with modern math calculations 1900+ years into the future means soon.

TLC said: "So are you amillennialist, and think that Israel has been replaced, or do you think that Israel (as an earthly nation) will yet enter into a 1000 years of peace? Also, are you aware that it is really not that uncommon for scriptural prophecies to appear to have both a near term and a much more robust (more distant) fulfillment?" TLC, I am amillennialist in the sense that I do believe that we are now in the millennium which started in 70AD when the saints took possession of the Kingdom...see Daniel 7:21&22 and Rev. 20 4&5. In Daniel 7:19 the "other horn"(11th) of the 4th Beast wages war against the holy people & defeating them until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgement in favor of the holy people. There are only 4 Beasts in Daniel & the 4th one is no doubt Rome. If you count from Julias Caesar to Vespasian you get 10 rulers(horns). The 11th horn was Titus(son of Vespasian) the Roman general who actually led the attack on Jerusalem in 70AD. That is why the futurists who read Daniel say it must be a future revival of the Roman Empire. As far as replacement theology. Physical Israel did take a break for a while, but if Israel was completely replaced I don't think that God would have brought Israel back as a nation state in 1948. The ball started rolling on that in 1917 when British General Allenby marched into Jerusalem during WW1. If Luke 21:24 is referring to dominion and not just the Roman attack from 66-73AD, then the "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" happened during the year 1948 or 1967 depending on how you look at it. It is obvious that God is now dealing with Israel favorably. I see the 1000 years as figurative meaning a very long period of time... so far 19 hundred and forty some years since 70AD. Christ is ruling from heaven: John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world." That is where the peace is, not here on earth. Here on earth we may be in the time where Satan is released for a short time to deceive the nations again (Rev 20:3). Then the forces of evil march across the breadth of the earth and surround the camp of the saints. This is figurative language but It sure seems like Christianity is under assault right now doesn't it?( in many different ways). Then fire comes down out of heaven and devours the forces of evil. In other words: Christ coming in final judgement. I'm looking forward to that and the new heavens and new earth. This dual meaning of Revelation has been mentioned in some Preterist circles...that the symbolism refers to 70AD as well as the future. Pretty interesting stuff and I haven't completely written it off. I think the Idealists from England I chatted with online years ago think along these lines to some degree.

T-Bone, you made some very good points regarding GSC. I truly believed that when I started posting here regarding my Preterist beliefs that I would be banned from this site. I've been banned from various Christian forums just for mentioning the word Preterism. Many thanks goes to the person or persons running GSC for being tolerant of alternative viewpoints no matter how crazy they seem. One thing I did expect (if I wasn't banned) was to get slammed as being debbil pozzessed or a heretic or something along those lines but that hasn't happened to my amazement. I was prepared for that and I think DWBH said something along these lines: "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen." I think for the most part we are an open minded group. We may not all agree with each other but we all are lovers of the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution. Here is a little background on my switch to Preterism from Dispensational Futurism. I was like most Christians believing that the eschatological prophecies recorded in the Bible are in our future. I became fascinated with Revelation during my teen years back in the early 80's. I read anything I could about the subject. I even saw Perry Stone and Hal Lindsey live a few times. Jump ahead to 2004... I saw a History Channel program about the early Roman Empire and some of the factions they were fighting at the time(Gauls etc). Being a history nut, I looked up 1st century Roman history online just for craps & giggles. During that internet search I ran into a Preterist web page describing the Beast of Revelation as 1st century Rome. My initial reaction was to laugh out loud and say "Bull SH**T!!!. It was the craziest thing I had ever heard of. I blew it off but then a few weeks later I ran into a different web page explaining Matthew 24 from a Preterist perspective. This got my attention because of its explanation of verse 34 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." This verse always bugged me. Even the futurist explanation didn't really make sense to me...that it is a future generation that witnesses all of those events. I accepted that explanation but in the back of my mind there was some doubt. Why didn't Christ use the phrase "that generation" if it was a future generation? The web site also listed some parallel verses such as Matthew 16:27,28: "27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” This one is harder to twist into a future generation. But it was these anomalies that triggered my own study of this alternative explanation of Bible Prophecy. Basically, I read anything I could about Preterism for 2 years before I became 100% convinced. It was a casual study and I took my time. I think the verses that really convinced me was Revelation 22:6 & 10: 6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.” 10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Revelation 22:10 parallels Daniel 12:9: 9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. The angel told Daniel that the prophecy would not occur in his lifetime, thus the figurative phrase rolled up and sealed is used. But Revelation 22:10 states "Do not seal up the words of this scroll." ?????? I know this is getting a bit lengthy but I want to clarify that I am a Partial Preterist. Some of the sites that I reference such as Dr. Morais's Revelation Revolution are Full Preterist sites but they contain interesting information so I reference them. Full Preterism is the belief that all of the prophecies were fulfilled by 70AD. I see Christ's return in final judgement, the 2nd resurrection, Satan thrown into the lake of fire where the Beast & False prophet(also fallen angels) already are as occurring in our future.

Skyrider, The 8th corps fiasco you mentioned was briefly brought up in another section of GSC. Apparently these 3 corps guys were kicked out of TWI altogether. The nature of their research wasn't known by any of the posters on that particular thread. Do you happen to know what they were researching?

I agree that God gives us astronomical signs and they are relevant even in our day and time. We should take note especially if these things occur on the Jewish feast days. However, the book of Revelation is symbolism which is referring to events that took place during the Roman attack on Israel(a.k.a The Great Tribulation) from 66-73AD, a seven year period. The 42 months or 3 1/2 years was the beginning of the campaign to the destruction of Jerusalem & the 2nd Temple(Matt 24:1,2) in 70AD. Revelation 12 is referring to a Babylonian constellation. Here is a commentary on this: http://revelationrevolution.org/revelation-12-a-preterist-commentary/

Thanks for the clarification Word Wolf. SOWERS is apart of a splinter group. I know it may seem strange to some here but this post is the 1st time I've ever heard of this group, Word Wolf stated: "It can't possibly work because the twi numbers explosion was based ENTIRELY on vpw taking a legitimate movement in Christianity, subverting it, and turning an already-successful group of people into his recruiting arm. THEY did all the work. THEY convinced the people of the substance. And THEY had no way to know all the plagiarism and corruption behind the scenes- and neither did the people." Right on WW. The movement that was led by Heefner, Doop & Wade was hijacked. I wish the people who still think VPW is our "father in the word" would realize this. Another question WW. Who is the parent splinter group?

I'm still a little confused. Are they a separate ministry from TWI or is this TWI?

Is SOWERS affiliated with TWI?

rrobs, The point I was trying to make with my initial reply was the fact that VPW was splitting hairs regarding 1st Corinthians chapter 12. I think his argument is absolutely ridiculous. VPW's interpretation of 1st Cor. chapter 12 is another example of him claiming to have special knowledge of Scripture that no one else has.