Infoabsorption

Bolshevik, I now see the context of what you are referring to...staff & corps. I was a rank & file follower where I gave of my money and time but didn't participate at the deeper levels: Wow & Corps. It seems VPW at some point sensed there could be a mass exodus even back in the 70s. That is the reason for bashing the people who left. I remember hearing about people leaving here & there and the "cop out" term was used among others such as being influenced by "devil spirits".

The bait was VPW's perceived special knowledge of Scripture. ..."as it hasn't been known since the first century."

the "manifestation of the Spirit is given". It is a gift! or it wouldn't say given. Dude you're still brainwashed.

Seems to me that atheists & agnostics need more tangible evidence for the existence of a Creator. There are some good creation science information on the internet these days. For those who have questioned the existence of a Creator i suggest that you check out this video: The most interesting part of the video is approx 16:00 minutes in where a scientist contemplates: "how did stupid atoms spontaneously write their own software?". Hopefully this evidence helps. I understand where you are coming from.

Without a doubt speaking in tongues TWI style was the most phony aspect of TWI I've ever experienced. Actually I don't think I've ever experienced genuine SIT. I've been to some contemporary non-denominational churches that had phony speaking in tongues almost as bad as TWI and phony miracles as well.

I think we have put too much mind into these spiritual things. I mean we were arguing that there is a difference between spiritual gifts and manifestations. I think the manifestations are spiritual gifts. To receive these spiritual gifts maybe we need to clean our act up and get close to the Lord. I think it's more than just "believing" for them. If one is a bad representative is God going to bestow spiritual power to that person? I saw very few genuine spiritual happenings while involved with TWI, although there were a few. I think it's not just a problem with TWI followers(and ex followers) but Christians in general especially in the USA and Europe. One of the biggest problems is the fact we've become too materialistic which in our culture is very hard to avoid. Perhaps we've been blocking the reception of these spiritual gifts. I no longer buy into the prosperity gospel. Not that God wants us to live in poverty but we are so focused on making gobs of money that we may be getting close to the realm of idolatry. I'm speaking in general terms and I'm not pointing fingers because I'm in this boat as well.

Brother revvel, In Matthew 24 Christ said in verse 15 : “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)," Let us take a look at Daniel chapter 9 verse 24 thru 27: Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, [j]to finish [k]transgression, and [l]to make an end of sins, and to [m]make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and [n]prophecy, and to anoint [o]the most holy. 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [p]the anointed one, the prince, shall be [q]seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times. 26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and [r]shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the [s]oblation to cease; and [t]upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate. Here are the verses containing Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks (of years). It describes the time frame of the second temple being rebuilt in troubled times to the time that the city and sanctuary (Jerusalem & temple) is destroyed and left desolate. So that means if this is in our future that verse 24 starts out by mentioning the rebuilding of the (second) temple during the time of the release of Israel by the Persians and then in the middle of verse 26 jumps way into the future 2000+years where a 3rd temple is to be built and then destroyed by "the people of the prince that shall come"(supposedly the Antichrist) completely ignoring the destruction of Jerusalem & the second temple(THAT VERSE 24 DESCRIBES AS BEING REBUILT!!!) by the Romans in 70AD. I don't buy it! Talk about confusion. No wonder Jewish people think we're uneducated: http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/ The city and sanctuary that was destroyed by the people of the prince that shall come was the exact same temple that was mentioned in verse 24...the second temple. The city and sanctuary was destroyed by the Romans under Titus in August of 70AD. So my conclusion is "this generation" mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24 was the same generation he was speaking to at that time. Some there would have been alive & witnessed the destruction of the second temple by the Romans in 70AD.

Bolshevik, LOL... that is one of the web sites that I've read. I don't know for sure if TWI intentionally restricted protein in the meals served at CG or perhaps someone in leadership was simply on a vegetarian kick at that time. However, it is very well known that cults have intentionally restricted protein intake of their followers as a mind control technique.

I mentioned this in another thread but I distinctly remember when i visited CG in the early 80s that the meals that were served there lacked protein. There are some cult experts who have mentioned that restricting protein in the diet is one of the 1st things some cults will do in its effort to gain control of someone's mind.

Is CG now the best thing about TWI? There sure are a lot of pics of it. Hopefully they have more than fruit compost to serve now..

I remember visiting Camp Gunnison during the summer of 1984. I was a teenager at that time. We took a coach from HQ to Emporia, KS to spend the night then on to CG. Had a blast except I was one of those who got the "altitude sickness" as it was explained to me at the time. About 3 days there I got lightheaded with my energy zapped and had to take a few naps throughout the day each day I was there. Reflecting back on that time I wonder if those symptoms were a lack of protein in the diet. The reason I bring this up is because in the late 70s when we went to CG those symptoms did not hit me. I remember eating a lot of fruit compost during that trip which was good but there was not much meat in those meals. I have a protein type of metabolism where I need a lot of protein to remain strong & healthy.

If anyone is interested there is an article that is a response to another article that explains the 4 views of the Book of Revelation: Idealist, Preterist, Historicist, and Futurist. The response article was written by a preterist. In the article he explains the major objections to preterism and gives very well written rebuttals to the objections. The writer also provides evidence from recorded history that the "Abomination of Desolation" mentioned in Matthew 24:15 & Daniel 9:27 occurred during the Roman attack on Jerusalem in 70CE. Very interesting stuff. This will give you insight into why I changed my beliefs so drastically regarding eschatology. Here is the article: https://probe.org/a-preterist-responds-to-four-views-of-revelation/#text1

revvel, I agree that Christ was revealing future fulfillment when he made these statements. But where I disagree with most Christians is that the events that Christ was talking about in Matt. 24 occurred approximately 40 years into the future (at the time He made these statements) but not thousands of years into the future which is the popular viewpoint of most Christians in our day and time.

Haha, I bet those 3 at the time didn't realize they were doing themselves a favor. If anyone else who knew Fanning and the other 2 please reply. I'm interested in knowing what the "odd" belief was that got them kicked out.

This is for clarification. Some Amillennialists don't hold to a belief there was a "rapture" or gathering in the past and believe that the resurrections all happen at the final judgement. I believe there are 2 resurrection/gatherings. The 1st one occurred in the 66-70AD time period. That included Israel and the 1st century Christians prior to 70AD. Look at Revelation 20:4&5" " I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection". This coincides with the last chapter of Daniel: 12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. The time of distress of Israel this passage is referring to was the invasion (of Israel) that led to the siege and eventual destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans(the sea Beast of Revelation) 66-70AD. This also coincides with Matthew 24: "Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” The 1st three versus of Matthew 24 describes the destruction of the Temple which occurred in 70AD. The disciples obviously connected the destruction of the Temple with the end of the age and Christ's coming. Look at Luke 21 verses 20 thru 24: 20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. OK, now look at Luke verse 27: 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” These events occurred in 70AD! The first resurrection occurred at this time. The 2nd resurrection is in our future.

Amillennialism is described in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism . Yes that is a pretty accurate description of what I believe. Although "Now-Millenialism" to me is more accurate term than Amillennialism because I believe we are currently in the Millennium which is symbolic for a very long period of time(not a literal 1000years). In that description on Wikipedia it says that "at Pentecost (or days earlier, at the Ascension) the Millennium began". I disagree, I believe it began at 70AD.

TLC, could you elaborate on Fanning and his Preterist beliefs? is he still in TWI?

Hi revvel, I once believed this also. However, after several years of my own study without TWI's thought control filter attached to my brain I've come to a very different conclusion. The 1st resurrection/gathering commonly referred to as the "rapture" took place sometime between 66-70AD. The wrath or great tribulation was the 3 1/2 year military campaign by the Romans in their destruction of the Land(mistranslated as "earth" many times in the book of Revelation) of Israel which started in 66AD.

I've been out of TWI since 1989 but never had a desire to join an offshoot. There are only 2 that I know anything about: CES(now STFI) and CFF. This would be for someone who has time to kill... but what I am requesting is a list of all known offshoots and a brief description of each one such as the year it started, people who started it, etc.

My parents were involved in TWI during this time period. My father passed away when I was young but I do recall conversations with my mother about this era of TWI when I got older. She has dementia now so she remembers none of the details, but I will share what I remember from the conversations. My mother took VPW's PFAL class live during the late 1950's(57-59) in Dayton, OH or somewhere in that vicinity. She really believed VPW had taught the most accurate word of God since the 1st century. Little did she know that much of the content was taken from other authors such as Leonard, Stiles, etc. She eventually talked my father into taking the class. They were members of the Baptist church at the time and taught a Sunday school class there. At some point they began teaching things in Sunday school that they learned from VPW which prompted a confrontation from the Baptist church minister. They decided they would not "compromise" so they left the Baptist church and began following VPW exclusively. I remember hearing about the Sunday teachings being held in the building that was adjacent to Weirwille Rd.(BRC??) They met Bishop Pillai there during that time and my oldest brother attended the 1st summer school that was held in NK. It was a very different culture back in those days. Much easier to conceal things. Back then they really believed VPW had special info. Wow, I just realized this thread was started in 2005.

Hi Waysider, I agree and it seems TWI under VPW took it a little bit further. Like someone mentioned in a previous post, being in the "dispensation of grace" was license to do some really bad things without repercussions.

Hi Steve and thanks for the reply. I never thought about dispensationalism from that point of view. So it may be accurate to say that the current dispensation started at the fall of Adam?

Hello everybody! Been a few years since posting but found this thread to be an interesting one. I do believe there are various "dispensations" or periods of time that God deals with mankind in certain ways. It's obvious we are no longer commanded to sacrifice lambs on an altar like ancient Israel was. So that is one example of how God dealt with mankind differently many years ago than He does now. However, VPW and others took the phrase "dispensation of grace" and seemed to add to it...basically teaching that since we are in the dispensation of grace we can do anything we desire no matter how sinful and still make it through the pearly gates...and even escape judgement here on earth. They taught/teach that since Christ's resurrection God is no longer in judgement mode.In other words, we are in the "Age Of Grace". I'm not going to say someone is going to hell for believing these things and it may be possible that Christians who knowingly and willingly commit sinful acts could still receive eternal life...I'm just not sure at this point. I do think it is a dangerous thing to teach others and part of the problem with Christianity these days. Looking at the context of Ephesians 3 it seems to be explaining(the Mystery)which is certain spiritual knowledge made known to everyone who was/is willing to listen even the gentiles that was not known prior. So in that context...yes God is dealing differently with mankind at the time that Paul was teaching in Ephesus and even today than He was prior. These days the whole concept of the dispensations has become distorted no doubt. I do think that periodically God does go into judgement mode even post Resurrection. In my opinion WW2 was judgement on Nazi Germany for it's atrocities.. Another example is The American Civil War which was judgement on the USA for the evil of slavery. There are many other examples. As a preterist, I believe that God even judges individuals in the here and now. Now getting to these periods of time and the timing of certain events such as the coming of anti-Christ etc...dispensationalists have read a lot into the texts of the Epistles and the book of Revelation and OT texts... erroneously placing certain events mentioned in these texts in our future when most of them occurred in the 63-70 AD time frame. But that is another post altogether.

I came across this book last year called The Harbinger by Jonathan Cahn. I read a description of it and was very skeptical because it seemed a little too sensational for my mental filter, so I put off buying it. Then I saw an interview with Jonathan Cahn on youtube. Anyway, that interview persuaded me to buy the book and video. I really think Cahn has discovered something quite extraordinary. I'm curious if others have heard of this? It's very controversial to say the least but Cahn shows parallels between the Northern Kingdom of Israel during the mid 8th century BC and the USA in modern times. Cahn calls it the Isiah 9:10 judgement which refers to the defiance of the Northern Kingdom of Israel to God's warnings after the northern kingdom went into apostasy. Here's an interview with Cahn on you tube:

Yes! I have thought of that concept and other preterists have also. I just haven't discovered any evidence for it. If someone can point it out I will definitely check it out. Another concept that has been discussed in the prophecy community for years is the rebuilding of the Temple since Israel is now back as a nation state. I guess there is a group of orthodox Jews who have been working on that for a while. So once it is rebuilt it will be destroyed all over again. It has to be if Daniel 9 verses 26 & 27 and Daniel 12:11 are in our future. However, After reading some little known history (to the Christian community), I strongly believe that the prophecies in Daniel 9 & 12 refer to the destruction of the Temple of 70AD, not a future temple. This stuff is out there for anybody to look up, but who wants to look this stuff up unless you are a history nut like me. I'll give you an example about prophecies mentioned in the bible that are commonly explained as happening in the future but can be shown as occurring in the past from recorded history. Look at Daniel 12:11 . After being told that the ultimate meaning of the prophecy was sealed until the time of the end (of the age), Daniel was given 2 markers for the countdown to this end. The man above the river tells Daniel that 1290 days would expire from the time the daily sacrifice was taken away and the abomination of desolation was set up(occurred), to the end of the age(the end being marked by the shattering of Daniel's people, see verse 7). The abomination of desolation mentioned in 12:11 references Daniel 9:27, the coming of the one who would make Israel desolate. ("and on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate"). Note: 1290 days after the coming of Titus to the Holy Land in Feb of 67AD the Jewish nation was shattered in early Sept. of 70AD. 45 days after the 1290 days at 1335 days a blessed period was to begin. The end point is the shattering of the Jewish nation which did end the sacrifices the Jews offered on behalf of Jews. So the 1290 days makes no sense. But there is a little known bit of history mentioned by Josephus in the Jewish War. This occurred in the summer of 66AD. It was the end of sacrifices the Jews offered on behalf of the Roman emperor. This change in the sacrifice marked the beginning of the Jewish war with Rome. It was this sacrifice that started during the time of Caligula offered on behalf of the emperor and the Roman people when the Jews loyalty was called into question when they opposed the erection of the emperor's statue in the Temple. Apparently it was a sacrifice instituted by the Roman emperor not just merely for the emperor. The primary indicator of the Jewish rebellion involved the leaders of the revolt refusing to allow any sacrifices in the Temple from gentiles. This resulted in the taking away of the daily sacrifice that was being offered for the emperor which laid the foundation of the war with Rome. The outcome of this taking away of the daily sacrifice for the Roman emperor was the coming of the one who would make the Jewish nation desolate also destroying the city and sanctuary(Daniel 9:26)ie abomination of desolation. Responding to Nero's order to crush the Jewish rebellion, Titus marched the 15th legion from Egypt up the length of the Holy Land to rendezvous with his father Vespasian on the western border of Galilee. This coming happened around Feb.67 AD as he marched a wing of the Roman army through the land of Israel. This was the abomination of desolation that Jesus warned those in Judea to flee from(Matt 24:15-24). Titus coming was the beginning of the great tribulation that resulted in the shattering of the Jewish nation 1290 days later. "On the wing of abominations" mentioned in Dan 9:27 provides another parallel to recorded history that isn't very well known. The Roman army marched with standards that had an idol called an Aquila on them. The Aquila was an eagle. Idols were called abominations by the ancient Hebrews. You can read about the Aquila here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquila_%28Roman%29 . The point I'm trying to make is that it can be shown from recorded history that certain events in bible prophecy have already taken place. Maybe not proven in absolute terms but there is evidence for it. Another point I want to make is that whatever one believes concerning prophecies in the bible has nothing to do with one's salvation. I think most of us who frequent this board have given our allegiance to the only begotten Son of God. That's really what matters right.