Cherished Child

Once again, a sterling example of in-depth spiritual judgement on the part of Ministry leadership, and your hard won ABS dollars at work -->

Yes, I do think that J.P. lost some traction in that last exchange with Harve. J.P. indicated in his letters that actions had been taken in regards to Mrs. Wierwille's care without the knowledge or consent of the Wierwille children. Harve pointed out that one of J.P.'s sisters has power of attorney, and that nothing could have been done without her prior authorization. Harve also issued a barely veiled threat of legal action (for libel, I would guess) if J.P. did not cease and desist in making "false accusations". J.P. has been silent ever since, leaving the average observer to surmise that he has been effectively intimidated. J.P. brought the issue of his mother's mistreatment into the limelight, garnering a tremendous amount of outrage-motivated support from the Ex-Way community. He promised that he had lots more to say, and people inclined their ears as if E.F. Hutton had spoken. The vacuum left by his silence leaves people to only speculate as to what has gone on behind the scenes. Radar said: "I can't help but think that J.P. and his sisters are taking care of their family responsibilities as they see fit. Is it fair that we as an exWay community demand that they take up our cause to expose twi as the first and only cause in THEIR LIVES? I don't think so. I would hope that we don't impose our own agendas on them, they have their own concerns to sort through." I can't think of anyone here who "demands" that the Wierwille kids make exposing The Way "the first and only cause in their lives". Without a doubt, the health and safety of their mother comes first, as well as that of their other immediate family members. Whether or not they ever say a word concerning the cult founded by their father, is entirely up to them. My point was merely that it was J.P. who chose to address the issue of his mother's care (and promised to render his judgement on "this and other matters" in the near future") in a most public way, and in the wake of the BOT's unprecidented action of posting their rebuttal on Greasespot, J.P.'s silence seems to indicate that he has been effectively "shut down" by Rosie and Company.

How about this one? Doc. Wierwille was such a spiritual giant, that he was one of only three human beings ever to have directly dealt with the devil himself---the other two being Eve and Jesus Christ....Riiight....

JP never sought the limelight? What the heck was J.P. Wierwille.com about? He leveled some pretty incendiary charges against the BOT concerning his mother's treatment, and promised that he'd have more to say "on this and other issues", then retreated into silence after Pawtucket posted Harve Platig's reply to his indictments. I would say he stepped into the limelight quite willingly and was pushed by no one, just as he has stepped out of the limelight, leaving us to think and wonder any number of things.

"Way of Redundance and Power rehashed stuff from previous years, but also had work in it from W*yn* Cl***, my husband, and myself, albeit what we submitted had certainly been distorted. Craig had this habit of taking bits and pieces of what was given him, and taking it off on tangents. A lot of what he taught was his own ramblings and perversions and bastardizations of things other people had submitted to him." Catcup, would you please elaborate upon the above statement more specifically? My H sat through a repeat of "The Way of Redundance and Cower" class recently. Prior to that, I asked him if they were still teaching Martindale's idea that Eve and The Devil actually engaged in lesbian sex, thereby causing the spiritual downfall of all mankind. I pointed out that that idea, in total, makes very little sense, and contradicts everything we had been taught about the nature of spirit and the nature of flesh. I.e., "spirit is spirit, and flesh is flesh", and that it would be impossible for a spirit to actually have sex with a human being. If that were possible, it would also be feasible that God actually had "sex" with Mary in order to conceive Jesus Christ---and we all know that that possibility is emphatically refuted in all TWI (as well as all other Christian) doctrine. I actually re-read that section in the WAP class syllabus, and noted once again, the way in which scripture had to be contorted in order to reach that conclusion. It was about as clear as mud, but they nonetheless persist in maintaining this doctrine. He concedes that there is an apparent contradiction between what we had been taught and Martindale's version of "the original sin of man", but he will not concede that it might be spiritually dishonest to continue to promulgate this shakey doctrine (big surprise there,... -->) Anyway, my question to you is: Were you and Geek on staff when this idea was being formulated? Does this explaination of "the fall of man" make sense? Or do you think it was yet again, another instance of LCM's perversions and bastardizations run amok?...That's actually three questions, isn't it?...Sorry... :D-->

Hope, even when I was among the most committed, I always thought that the Chorus Choir was, well...BORING! Followed very closely by, "uninspiring". I've actually thought very seriously on why this is, and have come up with a couple of insights: 1.) THEY ARE WEAK OF VOICE. I'd often get frustrated when listening to them because they seemed absolutely incapable of "belting it out". There's no vocal strength. They all sound so mousey. You'd think that that many bodies could produce more volume. 2.) You'd think that people whose faces seem to indicate that there's nothing more they'd rather do than to "bless God's wonderful Household of beleeeevers" in that moment, would actually be able to convey that in their voices. You can tell that they've practiced and practiced and practiced. But you can also tell that their hearts are simply not in it. 3.) Those "original compositions" that they sing all sound the same, and all sound as if they are trying to indoctrinate/brainwash. Why can't TWI sing a "praise song"---by that, I mean one that praises God, instead of The Body of The Way? Isn't a worship service supposed to be comprized of praise, thanksgiving and exhortation, as well as doctrine? Seems like TWI has always been stuck on the doctrine aspect. And it's reflected in the chorus choir's performances. As a matter of fact, that's the thrust of most Way Productions performances. Indoctrination above all. I've often been amazed at how much doctrine they're able to shoe-horn into a single bar of music. But the effect is that of being whacked on the head with the "doctrine hammer" every week. 4.) Yeah, I'm with you Hope. They all look so perfectly dowdy (the men) and, "frumpy" (the women). They should really consider wearing choir robes...Naaah, that wouldn't do any good. They just need something to get excited about.

Long Gone, do you believe that TWI had every right to sue Pat for using the name, "The Way of Christ Ministries"? What makes them right in asserting that the use of the words, "The Way" was an infringment on their copyright? You've still not addressed the fact that there are many other Christian organizations who are using the words, "the way" within their titles. Why insist that Pat, and Pat only, cease and desist in this instance? Why do you insist that TWI stands on moral high ground? If the town of "Moral High Ground" were located on their rear end, they couldn't find it with a compass, a map, and a flashlight.

Yes, Dot. It is often very difficult to remain married to someone who is so vehemently committed to The Way and its teachings. But I continue to hold on even though there's very lttle reason to believe things will change.

Well, speaking for myself, Pat, I hope you win. TWI has behaved like the 800 pound gorilla for too many years. Threats and intimidation are the air they breathe. They are so small minded and vindictive, that they are willing to waste many dollars in precious resources (money hard earned by their followers) in order to stick it to you at every turn. They don't play fair, and never have. They deserve to be taken down a notch or two... or three...or four... I just fear that you don't have a chance with this one. Your legal footing seems somewhat shakey---of course, this observation comes from someone with NO legal savvy, so I surely hope you have done your homework. Good Luck.

From where I sit, as a spouse of an "innie", I don't see much of a dichotomy between the upper echelon and the average "leaf". If my hubby is any indication, they have successfully managed to hoodwink the masses into believing that the evil began and ended with LCM. Innies believe that things have "changed" (and indeed, they have on many superficial levels). And sadly, these changes are enough for many of them. They can once again "put it on auto-pilot" and hit the snooze button.

Pat, it seems to me that you had a MUCH stronger case for holding onto your "Way of Christ Ministry" domain name than you do "Thewayinternational.com". There's NO WAY (---get it---"Way"--LOL!) they could have won a suit to deny you access to "The Way of Christ Ministry". And they would have been forced to pay your court cost, when they lost that one! Your current case seems much weaker, IMO. You could be left with some increadibly stiff legal fees, and I'm sure Rosie and Company know this. By the way, do you have a lawyer? Yes or no? If you're going by your own "legal sleuthing", you could be in for a very nasty surprise. Law school isn't 4 years worth of graduate work for nuthin'.

Wowzers! It really is a Japanese motorcycle sales site. Can there actually be two websites with the exact same address? Somehow, I doubt it. Looks like they definitely beat you to it, Pat. And looks like TWI make be barking up the wrong legal tree (so to speak). How does this already existing site figure into the whole equation?

Lolly, why is it so hard for you to believe that something other than money could have been the main reason MG made this film? Do you believe he's lying when he says his religious convictions were primarily what drove him in this project? You certainly must. Are you so callous and jaded in your assessment of everyone's motives? Somehow, if I thought the answer to that question was, "yes", I doubt you'd be so committed to The Way. What have Rosie and The BOD done to convince you that their motives are honorable? HONESTLY...? If TWI had undertaken to make such a film, would you have suspected that their motives were primarily profit driven? If not, why not?

Sorry Lolly, I actually misread your question. I thought you had asked if "anyone" here on G-spot actually revealed his/her true identity. But you were specifically speaking of "innies" (God only knows how I missed that---LOL!). Yep, you are absolutely right. I know of no "innie" who has EVER posted under his/her true name. And I totally understand why. I Certainly don't blame you for not doing the same. An innie posting under his true identity would be the equivalent of waving a red flag in front of the bull, wouldn't it? It stands to complicate matters considerably---which is exactly why, given my own circumstances, I don't reveal my own identity. For the record, I was not one of those who challenged you to "reveal" yourself to the larger G-spot audience. You are as entitled to remain anonymous as anyone else here. Lolly, I'm glad your TWI experience has thus far been positive. I wouldn't wish upon anyone the type of hell many of us experienced in The Way. If overall, they are finally giving people breathing room, after years of spiritual strangulation, that can only be a good sign. But you know, I keep hearing in my mind something Dr. Phil often says (and everyone knows he's the authority on such things... ): "Past behavior" he says, "is often the best predictor of future behavior". I did notice, he said "often", and not "always". However, given the many other indices still in place within TWI, I think it's a safe bet that things could very readily return to "the bad old days". Please trust me when I say that my experience with TWI almost ruined my physical health, and threatened to destroy my emotional one. The best time to destroy someone (all in the name of "Godly Love", "Spiritual Suspicion", ect., of course) is after you have lulled them into a false sense of security. I will never allow TWI to place me under those circumstances again. Had you had my experience, I'm fairly sure you'd feel the same way. But, having said all that, I also understand why you would choose to go with your own experiences, and not make a stay-or-go decision based on the postings of annoymous message board visitors. I did the same thing almost twenty years ago. Right after starting my involvement with TWI, I received an amazing number of warnings from several different sources about the perils of "that destructive cult". It scared the Bejeezus out of me, but I stayed put, because my experiences thus far had been so positive, even life-saving (yes, I STILL say that!). I stayed because, by and large, the believers and leadership in my area were some of the sweetest, most giving, most sincerely God-seeking people I had ever met. They showed genuine love and acceptance of me, in ways both great and small, on a continual basis. Nobody---and I do mean, NOBODY, was going to make me walk away from that. And for a while, it was the best thing I'd ever had. I know there are others whose experiences were not like mine. I know there are those who report having never experienced the blissful fellowship I experienced. I believe them, but that still doesn't negate the true blessings I received for a number of years. However, when things started heading "south", they did so increadibly gradually---almost imperceptibly so. Only when that snow ball started to build up a good head of steam on its way downhill, was there was no denying that it was time to say goodbye to something that was no longer good. Lolly, for your sake, and for the sake of everyone who remains in TWI, I only hope things continue to get better. I hope leadership sees that it's necessary to be honest and forthcoming, and not act as if the believer has no right to ask questions and receive answers. In other words, I hope they lift the veil of secrecy that still prevails within The Way, because secrets are best hidden in darkness. I hope they review, with honesty and integrity, every self-serving doctrine that they push (such as the no-debt doctrine and the tithe doctrine) and stop using them to manipulate people. I hope they suspend the use of pretzel logic teachings (such as the "Eve-and-The-Devil-doing-the-lesbian-dirty" teaching) until they can more clearly show it from The Word. And while they're at it, reexamine every doctrine/pratice/teaching implemented by their former HMFIC---if indeed he is, "former". But most importantly of all, I hope they one day show the Godly integrity necessary to admit that at one point, things got VERY SPIRITUALLY DARK, and that the critical leaders at the top (many of whom remain in the current BOD and and "Directors' Household" to this day) decided to call it "light", and that as a result of their hubris, countless people were hurt or destroyed. I want them to take ownership of that. But I'm not holding my breath. If they were actually to do that, I MIGHT seriously consider attending a Way Fellowship (albeit, while sitting close to the door ;)-->). [This message was edited by Cherished Child on March 25, 2004 at 10:50.]

LLP, I do believe you when you say that you experience no pressure to attend meetings or submit your vacation itinerary, etc. I think that the BOT has had to face the reality (FINALLY!)that such overt tactics are bad for business. Certainly, they had spent enough time reading this web site (and Waydale before it), in which innies on the verge of departing complained about being sick to death of having their lives micromanaged. There is a lot of wisdom and insight on these boards, even if they would never in a million years acknowledge that. They knew they had to lighten up on people, or loose what was left of TWI, especially in the wake of the Martindale scandel. My husband, also, has repeatedly insisted that things are not the way they use to be. I believe him, also. I think that the average innie probably now finds the TWI experience "pleasant" (if not slightly boring). But most of them also remember a time, not so long ago, when they spent most of their time shaking in their boots, afraid of ambush confrontations and ever more unreasonable demands on their time and resources. Naturally you're bound to be relieved (even thankful) when the guy who was choking you removes his fingers off your windpipe. There was a time when there was an active campaign to woo me into returning to The Household. But that boat left the docks a loooong time ago, never to return. I know too much now, and quite frankly, not enough has changed for me to even consider going back. One question keeps returning to mind: How is it that people who were supposedly so spiritually right-on, could be so willfully blind to the spiritual darkness that prevailed in TWI? How could they now be trusted to have "seen the light" (especially in light of the fact that they will not even acknowledge that there was light in need of seeing)? If you'd been bitten by a poisonous snake, would you not think it unreasonable that people expect you to believe that that same snake is now harmless? How, in God's name, does one trust the snake? As for no one here being willing to reveal their real names or identifying information, that's certainly not true. There are several people here who have identified themselves by name and other such info. Rafael (just as one example) uses both is own name, and has his picture next to all his posts. Is that really you, Raf?---LOL! Given the fact that my spouse is still "in", I don't quite feel comfortable using my real name. But if we were both "out", I'd have no problem doing so. However, I'm sure that if someone really wanted to know my identity, it wouldn't be too terribly hard to figure it out.

You are just too cool, aren't you Lolly?---Nooooo...Butter wouldn't melt in your mouth. But that doesn't mean you can make your prior posts say anything other than what they do. So, let's review. In your first post, you said: "Please spare me any elevation of M Gibson's motivation in the sacrifice of "his own money" to make this film (and thereby expose XXX number of otherwise ignorant souls to Christ). His top priority is to reap profits (which priority he is executing in handsome fashion)." In this post, you implied with no small amount of sarcasm, that Mel Gibson's motives were PRIMARILY mercenary, coldly calculated with the view towards "profits". Now had you stated that you believed potential profit was ONE of his motives, and left off the sarcasm, I might have had a different reaction to your post. There's no doubt in my mind that Mel Gibson made this movie with the belief that it would AT LEAST break even, and hopefully make a profit. But I guess the difference between you and me in this regard, is that I believe he just MIGHT have poured years of research, preparation, blood, sweat, and tears, and yes, HIS OWN MONEY into this endevour with the primary motivating desire that it might accomplish something greater. You continue: "do you expect me to believe that he funded this picture to spread the "Word"?" And then: "I admit my prejudice that, whenever money is involved, the motive (if ever there was one, other than money) is compromised." You've remained silent, I've noticed, on my observation that TWI charges MONEY for WAP and other classes. But somehow, I suspect that you don't believe TWI's motives are "compromised" where that money is involved.---It's to "spread The Word", right? --> Both TWI and Mel Gibson charge money to people to receive a biblical message, but ONLY MG's motives are profit driven? I asked you: "Being a business man yourself, would you be willing to risk loosing VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING on a venture that could just as well ruin you? REALLY? Even when there are many surer and safer ways to makes that kind of money?" I'm still waiting to hear what YOU would do under the the above circumstances. Would a primarily profit driven motive make a lot of sense in the face of such peril---FOR YOU? But you weren't satisfied to paint Mel Gibson as a opportunistic money gruber. You had to bash the content of his movie, too (even thought you, as yet, have not even seen it). You said: "I am unimpressed with his focus on the torture to which Christ was exposed (no one can verify the accuracy of degree in this area) at the expense of the message concerning what Christ's sacrifice delivered to our world." Again, you choose to disregard my observation that TWI never had a problem "focusing on the torture" that Christ endured. Again, it would seem that, in your accessment, only if TWI does something is it above reproach. Now, lest you point out that TWI focuses on more than the brutality of Christ's Passion, bear in mind that the scope of a "Christian Ministry" (at least one would hope) would focus more widely than it is possible to do in a 2 and a half hour film. A movie ABOUT Christ's Passion, would of necessity, focus upon the enormity of his sacrifice. A movie about PENTACOST would obviously focus on "what Christ's sacrifice delivered to our world". Both messages are important. Notice that God emphasized the "enormity of the sacrifice" more than a few times in The Word. Would you now question God's motive of focusing upon Christ's passion in the Gospel accounts? I didn't think so... But it does appear that my question to you about what TWI does with "ALL THAT MONEY" got your attention. Did the question never enter you mind prior to my asking? You can question what MG is doing with all that money he's making from The Passion, but not what TWI is doing with all that ABS you faithfully send in?---Unless, of course, you don't ABS to TWI---in which case, a new day must certainly be dawning. Because, in the past, anyone NOT regularly contributing at least 10% of his income, would have some 'splainin' to do before his leadership!Yes, indeed DO get back to me. It will be interesting hearing what your leadership (undoubtedly after inquiring "up The Way Tree" how he should answer your question)has to say on the matter. I said: "Nope. They maintain a stately property in Ohio, which none of their followers (whose hard earn dollars serve to keep it in such immaculate condition) can even step foot upon unless they've received prior written authorization. They maintain another high dollar property in Colorado, which serves virtually NO PURPOSE for the average follower(again, being maintained through your hard earned ABS dollars and the hard work of lots of overworked, underpaid peons) YOU have to pay extra for EVERYTHING! YOU have to pay for phone hookups. YOU have to pay for each new class that comes down the pike. YOU have to pay to sacrifice Thanksgiving with your family in order to sit through yet another "Advance Class Special". You have to pay for those Sunday Service tapes, even when you've already paid to hear the same teaching before via a phone hookup. You even have to pay for that pitifully thin Way Magazine." Concerning having to "pay" for all of the above listed items/services, are you saying that you can get the Way Magazine without having to pay for it? You can attend the Advanced Class special for free? You'll be sitting through that "new class" they are rumored to be soon releasing for free? You get Sunday Service Tapes through the mail without paying for them? If so, my husband sure ought to know about that. You see, he actually sends in twenty dollars a month to receive that privilege. You've never been asked to contribute money to reimburse the fellowship host for the long distance toll of a Sunday service phone hookup? I'm sure my point, that none of these things are covered by ABS was NOT lost on you. No need to act obtuse. If you are saying that you decline to participate in or partake of any of these things, then again, I say it must be a new day at TWI. For one thing, when most of us on this board were "innies", it was not optional to opt out of subscribing to either the Way Mag or Sunday Service Tapes. And if one failed to avail himself of new classes or never showed up at phone hookups, one would surely be asked if one had his spiritual priorities straight? If indeed, you are allowed to continue availing yourself of fellowships, without having to exhibit these benchmarks of "spiritual commitment", my hat's off to you. They might indeed be loosening their iron gripe on their followers. LLP, the reasons why many people assumed that your responses were indicative of TWI's overall opinion of The Passion are, One: Because you are a "representative innie", and Two: The tone in which you denigrated both, Mel Gibson and his movie, sight unseen, is SO usually typical of TWI toward any biblically based endevour NOT initiated by TWI.

On more than one occassion (I'm sure many of you remember having heard this as well), Craig M. said, "I'm the head of a MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION..." Everytime I heard him say that, I heard alarm bells ring in my head. Everytime he said that, I felt chills. Silly me...I had been taught that The Way International was "God's Ministry", the brightest spiritual light upon the face of the earth (I must have walked around with "Stupid" stamped on my forehead, then), not a "Multi-million dollar Corporation". Along with all the other breathtakingly carnal things he was prone to let slip at that time, it soon left little doubt as to where his heart was concerning The Word.

The sad thing about the whole POP, Martindale/Geer power struggle, was that most of us assumed that one of them had to be right, and the other, spiritually off the mark. Way too late, it seems, did many of us wake up to the understanding that they were BOTH terribly F'd up! It was Like choosing between slime and mucous.

I never blinked any eye when Donna called Craig the "Spiritual Head of this Ministry". I just assumed she was reiterating what most followers had been programmed to accept as fact---which was that before his death, Victor Paul Wierwille had been the "Spritual Head of TWI" (MOGFODAT), but now that Elijah had passed the "spiritual Mantle" to Elisha (Craig), he was now "The Head". We had all been groomed to think more highly of both Dr. Wierwille and Craig than we ought. Most of us did not stop to ponder the deeper implications of Donna's pronouncement. MOG worship certainly didn't start when Craig assumed the throne. I remember having more than one long standing believer tell me that Dr. Wierwille was such a spiritual giant, that he was one of only three people in the entire history of man who'd experienced a direct confrontation with THE DEVIL HIMSELF---the other two being Eve and Jesus Christ!

"What you seem to be suggesting is Mel G. was a "stupid gambler" who didn't know what he was getting into, and basing that assumption on the fact the risks for making his movie were very high. I disagree. I am fairly confident Mr. Gibson weighed the odds very, very, carefully long before he "threw the dice" on his Passion movie" No, I'm not suggesting that Mel Gibson went into this movie without having done as much of his homework as possible. In fact, it's said that he'd being researching the feasability of making this movie for more than a decade. What I'm saying is that this endevour was frought with more perils than C. B. Demille could have ever imagined. I think it's pretty short sighted to suggest that there's much of a parrallel between Demille's time and the present. 50 years ago, America (and indeed, the world) was a MUCH different place. The Ten Commandments were a common fixture in public school classrooms, as were "morning devotionals", which unabashedly included "school prayer". The average American would have said that America was a "Christian Nation" most definitely "under God" back then. People didn't protest in the streets, demanding the end to school prayer as a means of maintaining the "separation between church and state". There wasn't any state legislation banning the celebration of Christian holidays in state funded schools or during town meetings. "The Ten Commandments" was not considered a controversial film, but rather, a technical masterpiece, hailed and welcomed the world over. There was very little "gamble" involved. Comparatively speaking, the payoff was virtually assured, given the climate of the times. Surely you aren't suggesting that the same climate prevails today. Virtually all things "Christian" are met with barely restrained hostility, in both entertainment and politics. You can bash Christian ideals and principles till the cows come home in today's America. But you had just better not say anything polictically incorrect about Islamic ones. And it's never been such a good time to be Pagan, Wiccan or otherwise sexually oriented. I dare say, that there's a rather overt climate of hostility surrounding Christianity the world over, but nowhere is that more true than in the entertainment industry. The resistence Mel Gibson met over the making of this movie was not made up to "promote the movie". It more than threatened to deep-six the film on many occassions. All I'm saying is that it's extremely cynical to believe that money had to be the sole motivator in the making of this movie. However, if (because you could not be differently motivated under the same circumstances), you cannot fathom Mel Gibson making The Passion out of a passion for it's message, go ahead and believe what you want.

Hummmm....verrrry interesting... I wonder if they will FINALLY directly address the issue of adultery. Will they actually say, in no uncertain terms, that adultery is WRONG/SIN in the sight of God? Will they at least acknowledge that? OR will they just basically do an updated re-hash and denomination bash?

"OTOH, do you expect me to believe that he funded this picture to spread the "Word"?" No more than I expect you to believe that TWI CHARGES 50 dollars per head for a bible "class" out of the goodness of their heart and "to spread the Word". "No, I tend to think that he believed, contrary to his studio/corporate naysayers, that this venture would be a commercial success, that the venture promised profits." As I've said before, Mel Gibson was already a millionaire many times over, and still a hollywood "hot property" capable of pulling down many millions more by starring in any number of future films---all without risking a sizable fortune on something that very well could have proved disasterous to his career and reputation. There were MANY powerful entities that did everything in their power to try to deep-six this film before it was ever completed, then failing that, to keep it from ever being seen by an audience. I dare speculate that monetary gain was NOT the primary motive for Mr Gibson. Being a business man yourself, would you be willing to risk loosing VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING on a venture that could just as well ruin you? REALLY? Even when there are many surer and safer ways to makes that kind of money? Mel Gibson could have bankrolled and starred in yet another high explosion/highspeed-chase/shoot 'em up that has always stood him in good stead. By all accounts (that of both, his friends and his enemies), he is a deeply religious man. Do you concede that it is AT LEAST POSSIBLE that his motives were rooted in Christian conviction? I know TWI likes to promote the idea to its followers that no one "truly has a heart for God" outside of "The Household", but you've always claimed to be an independent thinker. Personally speaking, I'm still waiting to see evidence of that... "I am unimpressed with his focus on the torture to which Christ was exposed (no one can verify the accuracy of degree in this area) at the expense of the message concerning what Christ's sacrifice delivered to our world." LOL---you slay me! I guess focusing on "the torture" that Christ endured is only a good idea if you happen to be TWI! There was a time when they spent no small amount of time insisting on how little Christendom knows about the torture which Christ suffered prior to, and upon his crucifixion. They've invested no small number of teachings on just this subject, laying out in detail the savage indignities they believed He was forced to endure. I remember being taught how The Roman Catholic church, in particular, had minimized the brutality of Christ's passion by depicting him on the cross "as if he'd merely had a hard day at the office", while in reality, He was so horribly and brutally beaten---for hours on end, they said---that in the end, "he no longer was recognizable as a man". He was even SODOMIZED, they said---(wonder "how they were able to verify the accuracy of such claims"... -->) All because of his unfathomable love for us, they said, to pay the ultimate price once and for all of mankind. How is the message depicted in The Passion different from the one TWI preached for years? Oh yeah...SOMEONE OTHER THAN TWI had the nerve to show it more effectively...silly me... "So, I submit to those posters anxious to see how profits derived from this venture are distrubuted, let us wisely monitor and evaluate said distribution" Too bad you're not even HALF as concerned about what TWI does with the millions in annual ABS dollars they horde in their coffers! Talk about hypocritical thinking...! What, pray tell, does TWI DO WITH ALL THAT MONEY? Do they help out Way believers in need? Do they even so much as fund a small scholarship for their college bound followers? Do they GIVE away ANYTHING to the less fortunate? Nope. They maintain a stately property in Ohio, which none of their followers (whose hard earn dollars serve to keep it in such immaculate condition) can even step foot upon unless they've received prior written authorization. They maintain another high dollar property in Colorado, which serves virtually NO PURPOSE for the average follower(again, being maintained through your hard earned ABS dollars and the hard work of lots of overworked, underpaid peons) YOU have to pay extra for EVERYTHING! YOU have to pay for phone hookups. YOU have to pay for each new class that comes down the pike. YOU have to pay to sacrifice Thanksgiving with your family in order to sit through yet another "Advance Class Special". You have to pay for those Sunday Service tapes, even when you've already paid to hear the same teaching before via a phone hookup. You even have to pay for that pitifully thin Way Magazine. However, you regularly attend fellowships in SOME OTHER FOLLOWER'S HOME (putting wear and tear on HIS furniture, drinking HIS COFFEE, using HIS utilities, which is NOT, by the way, renumerated by ABS). Nope. All that money is funneled directly to Headquarters, where it is use to do...WHAT...??? How exactly are the "profits derived from this venture distrubuted"? Inquirering minds want to know... Oh yeah, they are used to settle lawsuits! :D-->

There's no doubt that LCM would still be the HMFIC if not for the Allen Law Suit. But pretend for a moment that he was never forced to resign. Pretend he had remained free to continued his "scorched earth" policies. How long do you think it would have been before there was barely a soul left to terrorize? Even before the news of the Allen suit broke, there had been a steady stream of folks who were either M & A, or who (like me) fled for their very lives and sanity. He was like a runaway train---an impending train wreck. I believe it still would have been only a matter of time before, under his continued "leadership" they would have been left with even fewer followers then they have today. In a way, his ouster saved TWI from certain demise because they've managed to make Martindale the scapegoat for everything (and it still amazes me that people actually buy into that fat lie). But by backing off somewhat, by cloaking themselves in the "kinder, gentler Way" image, they managed to stanch the membership hemmorhage. I do very much wonder about the extent to which LCM continues to wield power and influence at The Way. I definitely believe that he still has his hand in the til. There are probably conditions to his staying quietly in the background---one of which may be that his family be allowed to remain ensconced in the palace, and that The Way still uses his class, and sells his books (and pays any required royalities, of course). I doubt that he has much day to day policy or decision making power left. I somehow suspect that The Fox has got him exactly where she wants him---out of the way and gnawing on the bones she tosses from him time to time.

Well, I have to say I'm not surprised by the sheer lack of logic that LLP displayed in her post, accusing Mel Gibson of undertaking such a difficult and arduous task "for the money"... Lack of logic is a primary hallmark of longterm involvement in The Way. Come on, Lolly---THINK FOR JUST ONE MINUTE! Mel Gibson put up 25 million dollars of his own money to make an EXTREMELY RISKY film. TWENTY-FIVE MILLION! That's money he already had---Money he was obviously willing to loose, because this movie's success was in NO WAY assured. In fact, every industry expert predicted that this movie would fail miserably! There was actually little reason to believe that he did it to get rich---Hell, he already WAS rich, by AT LEAST 25 million! Pocket change, right? Gibson is reputed to be a devoutly religious man. Isn't it even within the realm of possibility (even within the mind of a smug, self-righteous, Way believer) that Mel Gibson's primary motive for making "The Passion of The Christ", is because he believes in the importance of the story it tells?

I just re-read Pat's initial post, and at no point did I get the impression that he was suggesting that Donna and Rosalie were sexually intimate. In fact, he asks: "Is LCM still secretly the president or a new title that gets him essentially the same royal treatment unofficially ?" Quite frankly, I also have suspicions regarding LCM's real status, and wouldn't be surprised to find out that he maintains a secret position of authority. As has been pointed out in times past, he undoubtedly knows a great deal about the dirty doings at the highest positions of Way leadership (and not just his own, either!). He knows which closets everyone's skeletons are hiding in, and he knows where all the bodies are buried (speaking figuratively, of course). Therefore, unless he were to be given "sufficient incentive", LCM might be inclined to "clear his conscience", and one can only imagine the possible fallout if that were to happen. No doubt, certain things simply do not add up. The fact that Donna remains ensconced in the presidential palace is certainly something to make you go, huummm. They are still teaching LCM's WAP series, essentially unchanged. It seems that none of the previously applied policies regarding "copped-out" Way Corp individuals and spouses have been applied in the case of the Martindales. So something is definitely fishy. But is there a bit of lesbian fish in the equation? Other than LCM's irrate obsession with homosexuality a number of years ago, what evidence is there that points to it?