Cherished Child

Yeah, Shelly---"indifference" is more accurate.

I have to agree that the feral cat analogy is terribly flawed, Geek. But I also understand what you're trying to say. Ultimately, forgiveness (which to me, is really the decision to emotionally, "move on") potentially has tremendous healing benefits for the one doing the forgiving. And it is the healing of the injured party that is most important. I understand the abundance of hurt and rage many people still feel here at The Spot---heck, at one time, unacknowledged hurt and rage threatened to ruin my very health (doctors thought I might actually have a life threatening disease, only to find out that it was entirely psychological). But now, after over five years, those feelings are starting to burn themselves out. Of this, I am extremely relieved because, hurt and rage are VERY heavy pieces of mental baggage! I still don't have even the slightest respect the unrepentant leadership of The Way, men and women who have reeked so much destruction upon good hearted people in the name of God. I will certainly NEVER trust them again (the Humpty-Dumpty analogy was an excellent one). My ability to "trust" in fact, is so busticated, that I can't bring myself to fellowship with ANY group of people calling themselves, "Christian", and perhaps, never will. But I do forgive all those who personally hurt me, if "forgiveness" means I no longer grant them a place of importance in my heart and life. I can see them and cordially say, "hello". I wish them no destruction or hurt in kind. I just don't think of them much at all anymore, and when I do, there are virtually no feelings attached to the thoughts. Is that "forgiveness"? Probably not, if feelings of "love" (Christian or otherwise) have to be involved. They killed the love. The best they can hope for from me now is---what's the word..."apathy"?

I just have to shake my head in disbelief at the way this thread has gone. From the very beginning, Geek's question seemed like a perfectly innocent and honest one. I DID NOT get the impression that he was "shaking his finger in anyone's face" or attempting to shame anyone into forgiving anyone. Likewise,I don't understand why Catcup has been so doggedly vilified, and insulted by people like Cowgirl (have the two ever even met?), when she has been VERY clear in her stance on the topic of forgiveness this entire time, and has never waivered. And it seems like a perfectly reasonable stance to take (one that, to me, has nothing to do with her having ever been Corp). So what's the deal? Is the mere prospect of forgiveness so onerous, that anyone even broaching it should be treated like an emmisary of the WayGB? I don't know Catcup, and I don't know Geek. I've never fellowshiped with either one of them, nor with CFF. But they've been respected, outspoken, and intelligent critics of The Way International here on Greasespot (and before that, Waydale) for many years. So, why are they suddenly the targets of such ire, and yes---judgement, on this thread? Now, my personal take on the topic of forgiveness--- As far as I can ascertain, forgiveness is NOT absolution. It is NOT a blank check to continue to injure or destroy. And it's CERTAINLY NOT a mandate to ever trust the forgiven party again. It is merely an psychological (and yes, even at times spiritual) tool that the offended may SOMETIMES find useful in setting themselves free to live without the continual torture that comes with hurt feelings, and heart-nawing bitterness. Notice, I said, SOMETIMES... Obviously, it's a deeply personal decision, one which a person literally cannot do, unless and until he/she sees a profit in doing so. And you can forgive with or without concern about what "God says about forgiveness". Plenty of people who don't even believe in God have chosen to extend forgiveness at some point or another. They chose to do so because they desired to turn their back on the pain and walk away. That's really all that forgiveness is about. Turning your back on the pain and emotionally WALKING AWAY. It's not easy, and in many cases, it's not even possible. It's not about what's "right" or "wrong". It's about what's best for the person making the decision to do so---OR NOT!

Song, [PLEASE] try to write in complete and comprehendible sentences when you post. Your opening question (was it a question?) made no sense whatsoever.

This is a topic that deserves deep contemplation, and I have been thinking about it ever since reading Research Geek's initial post. About the only conclusion I've absolutely reached is that "forgivness" entails the relingquishment of prior feelings of anger and resentment toward the forgiven party. Sadly, where TWI (The Organization)is concerned, I've still not come anywhere near "forgiveness, largely I guess because it still figures very prominently in the reality of my daily existence---due to the fact that hubby is still "in". Among other "realities", we will probably never own a home because TWI has convinced him that a mortgage is "against The Word". I firmly suspect this will have profound and perhaps, financially devastating consequences in our future---but I digress... Forgiveness---what a tough nut... I've forgiven everyone who has actually asked for my forgiveness, though I will NEVER EVER trust them in the same way I once did... My memory is still well intact. A couple of former leaders (Fellowship and Branch) have apologized to me for any "hurt they may have caused me". And I have decided to forgive them, even though I also strongly suspect that they DO NOT have a clue as to how seriously their actions did hurt me. I don't think they are capable of understanding at this point. But somehow, that's OK. I just don't have the will or energy of conviction to continue holding anger toward them. Neither of them is in leadership position any longer, and therefore, has little direct influence over my life, or any other Way or former Way person (outside of their own families), for that matter. I wish I could just forget about The Way altogether, just chalk the experience up to a sort of "psychic anomaly". And I will---when I no longer feel threatened by the power it exerts over my life (if that day ever comes). I think it will be easy to "forgive" them, if forgiveness means the feelings of anger, fear, and resentment disappear...

Oldies, I looks like you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY like fanning the flames, too.

What did you get out of this whole thing again, Pat? The fact that you weren't forced to shut down your web sites? Are you sure that TWI's main motive was to shut you down, or were they just throwing that bit into the mix, given the fact that they were already in a fight with you anyways? What is so particularly offensive about your Anti-Way site, that TWI would seek to shut it down, but leave sites like Pawtucket's and Raphael's unmolested? "You guys keep talking about the number of times "the way" shows up on Web sites, as if any use of the words themselves are a trademark violation. That's a total straw man argument. TWI has never made any such claim" Why is that a "straw man", Raphael? I'm specifically referring to the many Christian ministries/groups with the words, "The Way" in their titles/names. Why was Pat Rob*rge's use of "The Way" in his "The Way of Christ" site a violation of their trademark, but not similar usage by other groups? I still highly suspect that, were TWI to attempt to bully some other Christian group/ministry into dropping its use of the words, "The Way" in their titles, it would not be able to make it stick in a court of law. Any common sense thinking person (even a Judge---but most certainly, a jury) would have to conclude that "The Way" is JUST TOO GENERIC a term to remain the exclusive domain of a single church or denomination. But TWI isn't going after any other groups with just, "The Way" in their names, because they know (I'm sure their lawyers have advised them) that they could possibly loose that mark in a ....in' contest against the wrong 800 pound gorilla. They know that someone like Pat hasn't the financial resources to launch a sustained and successful fight against them in such a dispute. But isn't there a church somewhere called, "THE WAY OF CHRIST United Methodist Church", or something similar? Is TWI going after them? I doubt it. The reason why TWIM lost it's suit is because they used the words, "The Way International" in their title. That one additional word, "International", was what killed their case. As odeous as I find TWI, I would have to agree that TWIM was violating their trademark.

I don't get it. What exactly are the particulars of this settlement? Did you relinquish the disputed domain names to TWI? Did you end up paying them money, or did they pay you? What did you get out of all of this?

Well, I have to say that I'm not the least bit surprised that TWIM lost in this particular court case. The name, "The Way International Mininistries" sounds waaaay too much like "The Way International" for it not to be a Trademark infringement. I somewhat doubt that they have a legitimate claim of Trademark infringement in EVERY case in which a religious organization uses the words, "The Way" in its title. I still think that, had he proper legal representation, and scads of money, Pat could have won his legal wrangle with TWI on, "The Way of Christ" dispute. Aren't there other (several) Christian ministries out there, calling themselves, "The Way of" something or other? The Way of Peace, The Way of Jesus, The Way of God, The Way of Grace, The Way of Christ, The Way of Light, Church of The Way, etc. Surely, The Way International could not prevail in convincing any court that any of the above titles infringes against their Trademark, or causes any level of brand confusion! Let them try to bully that many churches, and see where it gets them. If they think they have image problems now... -->

And I believe that it is this obvious absence of heart-felt worship of God, fellowship with Jesus Christ, joy of heart, and genuine love for one another (not the huggy/fake kissy---"god bless, you're the best as long as you agree with us, but I'll dump your A$$ without a backward glance as soon as leadership tells me to", type of love). People are bound to see that something is terribly amiss when they attend these dry rituals called, "Way Fellowships". That's why people rarely stick around after an initial experience. If you're looking to be spiritually nourished, it soon becomes infinitely obvious that you won't be receiving much more than the spiritual equivalent of a baloney sandwich at The Way. This is why current followers can't bring themselves to enthusiastically witness anymore---deep down, they know that the only reasons they themselve continue to attend Way fellowships, is the sheer inertia generated by habit of ritual, the long ingrained assumption that "the word can't be found anywhere else", smug belief that God favors them above "other Christians", and fear that walking away from The Way will end that favored status.

That's rich, Just thinking! Thanks for the laugh... :D-->

I read the, "about the artist" blurb on the site, ALA, and I don't recall ANY mention of his ever having been a minister. How did I miss that? I do think it's absolutely amazing that the Former Rev. Mosquita totally bypassed any mention of ALL THOSE YEARS (how many were there, does anyone know?) in TWI! And this is the man whom I witness cry tears of joy upon hearing "Reverend Martindale's revelation" that the "word was over the world"... Of course, I wouldn't blame him, if he now felt that those years were like a trip to the Twighlight Zone, a time/space continuum anomaly... Boy, some of those poses certainly are provocative! And Bev doesn't have any problem with him photographing all those nubile young things in such a manner..?

"Teaching, Prayer, and words of comfort and edification" huh, John?....What about WORSHIP? When was the last time, anyone recalls having actually worshiped God in a TWI fellowship? What about, praising God with thanksgiving and song? Where is the heartfelt celebration of the Greatness of God Almighty---not just smug self-congratulatory boasting of their status as "the only true Household of God", and sole proprieters of "the rightly divided Word? What about acknowledgement that Jesus Christ is worthy to be praised---that fellowship with him is NOT limited to the use of his name as an appendage to a laundry list of demands? Where is Christ in TWI?

Well, once more---with feeling... This is clearly a ....in' contest that neither side has any intention of loosing. But loose, someone most certainly will. Unfortunately, I think that Doug and Shannon can just forget it. The Way International Headquarters is private property, and the BOD is legally intitled to restrict its access to anyone they choose. Of course, as far as what's morally right, The Way has not been particularly interested in that for quite some time. I do however, have to agree with Rico Magnelli's supposition that McMullen and Company's prime motivation is NOT gravesite visitation. What Doug and Shannon wish to do is show the world TWI's pettiness, hardheartedness, and downright vindictiveness toward its former followers---things of which everyone here is already well aware. Problem is, I suspect the world doesn't really give a rat's hindquarters about this matter, in as much as next to nobody is even interested in TWI itself. The lawsuit brought forth by Ms. Bottoms and Mr. McMullin, may well be dismissed in court. What I found interested in the newspaper article was the appearance of J.P. and son this time around. I think it's interested that J.P. didn't even attempt to enter the property, and that Victor was told outright that he was not welcome. What has Victor done to rip his ticket with The BOD, besides refusing to "stand" with TWI? And J.P. was not shy about making a statement to the press concerning his feelings in the matter. Perhaps he WILL have something to say in the future concerning the goings on in Way World. Guess we'll just have to wait and see...

"The Sommervilles, in particular, had to practically be dragged kicking and screaming to Living Vic in '82; they had been on the outs with the old man for years at that point..." Really...? And there are those who believe the Wierwille children were completely unaware of the highjinx their Father was engaged in. Interesting... Well, I suppose it's possible. But if Mrs. W knew he was road testing Corp gals in the motor coach, I doubt this bit of information escaped the kids. I know that if I even suspected my Dad was boinking young women in a back yard RV, while my mom sat alone in the house, I'd have refused to have much to do with him. Does anyone REALLY believe the kids did'nt know about a lot of what Dr. was up to? In which case, I can certainly understand why they would be disinclined to publicly address such a shameful and scandalous legacy.

I'm sure scanning the photo and posting it on the net would be a copyright violation, and the Waygb would be more than happy to "alert the authorities". ONLY 5 GRADS...! Gee, it's everybit as bad as I imagined. So, anyone feel like speculating as to how many are left in-residence? I bet it's quite a few less than 15. I guess in this extension of the "Decade of Prevailing", anything better than "lights Out/Lock the Doors on the Way Out", qualifies as a victory.

Yes, even as I type this, the dimishing flock of TWI faithful are in their Sunday Best, sitting in rented meeting rooms in Hotels across America, listening to the telephone... Amazing. A week from now, they'll receive a Sunday Service tape in the mail, all the better to hear the same crap all over again...Yup, life in "The Household" is gooood...

Watered Garden, why was the HFC's wife able to charge her medical debt "off to Medicaid", while you were not? Is it because their income was so low as to qualify for Medicaid (A GOVERNMENT HANDOUT!), while yours was not? Which Limb Coordinator was it that had the "screaming fit"? I wonder if ALL Limb Coordinators were given special "fit training ". I know our's was particulary adept at it -->

Oh, there have been numerous posts in the past that were less than admiring of Mrs. W., Just Thinking. Though, usually, they came from a handful of people who hold TWI, and all those surrounding it, in particularly low regard. But I do think the consensus of the majority of Greasespotters is that she's a good woman who overall, got the shaft. As far as J.P., I wouldn't begin to presume to "force" him to say a darned thing. It's just that HE went out of HIS way to very publicly condemn TWI over it's treatment of his mother, and he proclaimed that he had more to say about that and other issues as well. Then, H. Platig's open letter in response to J.P. was posted here on The Spot by Pawtucket, at which point, J.P. went noticably silent. J.P. is the one who decided to speak up and J.P. is the one who decided to shut up. I don't get the indignation some are expressing here, about respecting the privacy of the Wierwille children. No one is invading their privacy in the least, and no one is in any position to demand anything from them. But it makes no sense to contend that there is nothing to be gained by their publicly speaking up. It's telling in the extreme that not one of Dr. Wierwille's children is willing anymore to "stand" with the ministry their Father founded. Regardless as to whether or not they knew anything of the behind the scenes machinations of their father, they certainly DO know plenty about the inner workings of TWI after the ascendency of Loy Craig Martindale. There are reasons why they choose to no longer stand with The Way. They could confirm or dispell a great deal of myth and rumor surrounding the entire organization. But, if they choose to remain silent (and it certainly appears that they do---possibly under serious threat of legal action), it's their right. However, if ever they do choose to speak, I'll be listening, and I'm sure I'll not be alone.

Come on, surly somebody knows when these things are going to court...!

Ok, I tried to ask this question before, but it was intercepted for "examination" by the powers that be because I made the mistake of fully writing out the name of one of the major players in one of the suits. But all I wanted to know is: What's the status of the varous outstanding court cases?---The ones filed by The Way against other parties, or the other way around. The Peeler Case? The Way International vs. that Way outfit in Indiana? The Way International VS. P. Rob*ge?

A pot to .... in OR A WINDOW TO THROW IT OUT OF---at least not one that actually "belongs" to them. Too bad that by the time The Way does an about face on the debt and mortgage doctrin, it'll be too late for most adults currently in The Way.

"If it were me I would close the doors, as when a company goes bankrupt. Reinvent the "business model" and open up under some other name or service.....with a different president and a different board". John, how could that ever happen, when it's the current President and Board of Directors that are the only ones in the position to bring that to pass? You KNOW Rosie and The BOD aren't about to walk away from their gravy train, slowing dwindling, though it may be. There's no witnessing because people really are just tired and disillusioned. Terminal inertia has set in, and they really don't even believe their own party line anymore. Only passion spurs continued growth, and that died in The Way loooong ago.

Sounds like Mrs. W. is still able to recognize her friend, which is wonderful. My guess is that she's far better off at the Nursing home, than in Way World. But I still think it's interesting that J.P. is keeping silent after that initial cry of outrage he issued earlier in the year. Way lawyers must have scared the **** out of him. Too bad.

Hasn't there already been a favorable court ruling for The Way in this matter? Wasn't Doug M. fined and or jailed because of this ruling?