Cherished Child

The big question is: WAS VP WIERWILLE EVER BORN AGAIN? The answer is that NOBODY BUT GOD knows. There can be no doubt that V.P. lived much of his life contrary to the standards that defined, "A man of God", as written in The Word of God; that he excercised little control over the urgings of his flesh, even though he confessed on numerous occassions, that he wished he were the man he KNEW to be. Without a doubt, he is responsible for immeasurable suffering and distruction. Therefore, it seems to me The Word says that he has a LOT to answer for. And IF he was NEVER born again, he is pretty much doomed according to the scriptures. HOWEVER... IF he was EVER born again, HE HAS ETERNAL LIFE. That's what the scriptures say. That's what Jesus Christ died to make available. This is a truth that is NOT changed by the way in which he chose to live life after he was born again. That's the magnitude of the GRACE OF GOD! If he was born again, he would be saved from "The rath to come", but would receive NO REWARDS (or few) because he failed to conduct his life according to the minimal standards of The Word of Grace. If salvation was contingent upon the works of the flesh, we would STILL BE UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES. IF we are still under the Law of Moses, we are ALL in deep kimchee, because none of us is righteous according to THE LAW. I never personally knew V.P. Wierwille. I was only in the same room with him once, and for only a few hours. At that time, I was a "new babe in word", and under the assumption that the man in our midst was "a wonderful man of God". However, I will never forget the disturbing vibe that he gave off that night. He was combative and agitated, and everyone was tip-toeing around him because of it. I rationalized what I witness that night, assuming that I wasn't "spiritual enough" to discern what was really going on. Now, I believe that I was witnessing a frequently manifested trait of a VERY flawed man. But still and all, GOD KNOWS THE TRUTH. He knows whether V.P. is heaven bound or not. What I believe DOES NOT MATTER IN THE LEAST, and will not change V.P. Wierwille's fate one iota. I suspect that he was indeed, born again (at one point or another). I know he was a man who allowed himself to be made a pawn of the Devil on too many occassions, which resulted in immeasurable heartbreak. I also know that I myself have been far too frequently manipulated by "the Adversary" (boy, do I hate that term anymore---even thought I believe it's still very appropriate :P-->) and subject to actions based on my five senses. To that end, I would be far better served to concern myself with this fact than whether or not V.P. Wierwille (or L. Craig Martindale) were/are born again or heaven bound.

I've been told much the same thing, Indyrobb---that leadership is a lot less dictatorial, and that they haven't M & A'd anyone in ages, etc. But you know, as far as I'm concerned, the changes are all merely cosmetic. They saw how drastically their scorched earth policies were effecting the bottom line and realized that they would be out on their a$$es in no time if they didn't put the speed brakes on the blatant brutality. However, the fact their policies and actions ruined countless lives and famillies, they have never even begun to acknowledge. And they never will. Many of the same dickhead pharisees that weilded the most power in the nineties are still there, calling the shots. The only one who isn't physically still present running things day to day, is LCM (and who knows how much say he has behind the scenes?). Virtually all those who continually leaned down, whispering in his ear are still at headquarters---Donna, most notably. Craig's classes, Craig's books---still in place. So how much can really be different? No, they are'nt ripping your average joe a new rectal oriface every day, like a few years back. But they are far removed from the signs, miracles and wonders they use to insist were available through "the Household". They are'nt doing anything more than playing church and going through the motions, still smug in the belief that they are the only "True Household of God". You ain't missin' a thing!

Ok Mike, let's just assume for the moment that you are 100% correct about PFAL being the greatest, God-breathed revelation since the church epistles. Other than pounding your head against the brick wall that is Greasespot Cafe, what are YOU doing to take this soul-saving miracle to the masses? Surely you must realize that you are Martin Luther III (the first and second being, The Original Luther, and then, of Course, VEEPEE). You are like the lone voice, crying in the wilderness. God has sent you on a mission! And you are failing miserably! WHAT KIND OF APOSTLE/PROPHET ARE YOU, ANYWAY!

I heard that Geer kept a loaded gun during those meetings also, John. And everytime I think about that, I'm completely astounded by the implications of it. I mean, REALLY!---How paranoid, how psychotic, how completely sick do you have to be to feel justified in threatening your supposed "brothers and sisters in Christ" with a loaded weapon just because you don't see eye to eye on how things should be done?! To me, this account really drives home to me how twisted the major players in this tragic farce must have been. That I was even periferally involved (for twenty years!) in this madness is my greatest source of sadness... :(-->

One....two....three....four....---what?! Where are the flame-throwers? Sure are slow arriving on the scene...

Linda, somehow, I suspect that Donna keeps a comparatively low profile at HQ nowadays (ie., no more rants in the dining room). Maybe the staffers at HQ are aware of the nasty and persistent rumors concerning the "true nature" of Donna and Rosalie's relationship, but I can assure you that most innies on the field have never heard a single one. Heck, most of them were shocked as .... by the news about "Rev. Martindale's" extra-marital activities. Nope---as far as the average innie is concerned, those two are just "wonderful women of God" doing their best to uphold the "standard of the Word". And even if the rumors are true, they would prefer never to hear them, because being a mushroom is comfortable and painless.

I don't think the average innie ever even thinks about Donna, nor the nature of her living circumstances. All they know is that she is "still standing" (that virtuous, committed believer!) and that Craig (that Rat!) is not. I'm sure she has the sympathy of the average innie, much the same way that most woman whose husbands were found to have been cheathing on them have the sympathy of others. I don't think many of them know that she is still ensconced in the Corp Chalet. In fact, I don't think most of them even know what the chalet looks like, how big it is, how luxurious it is---nothing. I know that I have personally never laid eyes on the place, despite the many times I attended the Rock of Ages. It was tucked away in a well guarded part of the woods. I've only seen pictures of it and read about it here and on Waydale. And as others have said, Innies know that it is "inappropriate" for them to ask about Craig, Donna, or the current state of their marriage. It's considered "none of their business", and they know that's exactly what they would be told, should they be so stupid as to inquire. So given this fact, Donna and Rosie know that they can do whatever they damn well please, and not a soul will question it. Absolute power is a mighty fine thing---if you happen to be the one wielding it.

Way Homes are certainly an idea whose time has come and gone. Most Way Home inmates were single. Once people got marriaged and had kids, their living priorties usually shifted and they desired more private living arrangements. Nowadays, as stated earlier, there are not many singles left, and most of the young people are cutting the cord to TWI once Mommy and Daddy are no longer in the position to micromanage their lives anymore.

I think she keeps a relatively low profile. If she were placed front and center, there would be too many questions to answer concerning the status of her relationaship with the former MOG. Plus, I'm sure it's easier to maintain her position as Rosalie's "special friend" if she stays hidden in the background, well beyond the scrutiny of the rank and file believer.

Oh come on, let's get just a little bit honest here! There are some here who J.L. could not make happy, save that he spontaneously combust. NOTHING he could say, short of admitting that he is a money grubbing, son of beliel, will convince some that he was finally "getting real". That's what I mean when I say that, from his perspective, coming back to The Spot would seem like a waste of time. I DID NOT SAY THAT ANYONE HERE WAS A WASTE OF TIME!! I have not yet figured out what to believe about J. Lynn. But I'm willing to listen to what he has to say, calmly and respectfully, and in the same spirit, ask him some pretty tough questions. If he were unwilling to enter into a respectful dialog, I would have nothing more to do with him. But I certainly wouldn't expect him to put up with me spitting repeatedly in his face. I know I will never again let anyone treat me like that. John said: "I will probably not spend much time reading or answering a bunch of posts, but will give you my email address (jalces@aol.com) and home (317-849-5707) and office (317-255-6189) phone numbers in case you really want to communicate with me. I believe J.L. was indicating that he will not get bogged down into arguing with people who would, in all actuality, just as soon see him dead. Where's the profit in that? But he did make his email and private phone number available for those who truly want to dialog and receive some answers to questions that have been bugging them for eons. Most people here at The Spot choose to remain entirely entirely anonymous. Everyone here at The Spot participates ON THEIR OWN TERMS. Why is it The Mark of The Beast for J.L. to excercise the same right?

If I were John Lynn, I would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was a mistake to post here at Greasepot. I would know that there is absolutely nothing I could ever say that could justify my existence or my work in the eyes of most posters. I would realize what an incredible waste of time it would be to even try.

Hostile waters here at The Spot, huh John? After what some have written in response to your first post, I suppose you might feel that there's no profit in responding to your critics. Unless you say that V.P. Wierwille was a complete chalatan, and you are hopingto succede at it as brilliantly as he did, I doubt ANYTHING you say will satisfy some. As for myself, while I ain't about to join any church or ministry in the forseeable future, I don't believe that EVERYTHING taught by Wierwille and The Way is gargage. A lot of it has been taught for centuries. Same goes with CES. Much of it is standard Christian doctrine. I think that people who have rejected out of hand all of The Way's Teachings (and by extension, all of CES's), also reject most of Christianity's offerings. Baby, bathwater, soap, washcloth, and the pan to boot! I'm not quite there yet. I remember the moment I was born again (many years before I'd even heard of The Way). I've not yet given up on a true relationship with God. But I do understand the rage and complete distrust of all "men of God" expressed here. So there might not be much "fertile ground" here. Sorry. I did a bit of reading on your site last night before bed. Will read more later. I have a question that I'd be interested in hearing the answer to. I noticed that you now refer to the return of Christ as "The Rapture". Why do you now use the more common term for that occurrance? Just curious. Also, do you believe it's possible for us to have a more direct fellowship with Jesus Christ than The Way makes available? How is it possible (if at all) to make prayerful requests to Jesus, without worshiping him as some sort of deity?

Thank you, John, for coming to The Spot to say hi and all. I too, was really blessed with the obvious heart and love expressed in, "Will The Real You Please Stand Up" and Will The Real You Please Remain Standing". I still have much fear and trepidation, and I know that it's keeping me from having a real fellowship with God and with His Son, Jesus Christ. I hardly know how to pray anymore, and sometimes, I'm overwhelmed with sadness, feeling like I'm stuck in a dark and desolate place. But, I honestly don't know who I could trust to fellowship with. I honestly don't think I could survive another round of physical, emotional, and spiritual devastation of the sort I suffered through in TWI. One thing you said that really peaked my interest was the part about having TRUE fellowship with Jesus Christ. More and more, I realize that that's something I never did have in TWI. And that's a crying-out-loud-shame, because I REALLY want that. I will be taking you up on your offer to visit your web site and read extensively. But it will take virtually audible revelation directly from God or The Lord Jesus Christ himself, to make me pursue ANY organized Christian organization, claiming to "speak for God". (In case I haven't indicated already, I have deep trust issues"... --> Anyway, welcome John. Please don't be a stranger. Ignore the posts of anyone whose only objective is to wound and demoralize. I do. I really do love my brothers and sisters in Christ. That's why nobody in the world can hurt me to the extent they can. I'll do anything to avoid that kind of hurt again. Bless You.

George, I believe it took a few years before Craig truly started to terrorize the ministry at large. That's what I meant about J.L. leaving before "the reign of terror". I know nothing about the jostling for power among the top leadership. There were, I've read (and been told), that a number of men in high positions felt they were immanently better qualified to have recieved the presidential nod over Martindale. Whether or not J.L. was one of them, and whether or not it may have factored into his exit,---I haven't a clue. It would be very interesting indeed to hear his take on the goings-on during that period of Way history.

I've never met John Lynn and, other than having read his, "Will The Real You" books, I know little about him. I know he wisely left The Way LONG before Martindale began his reign of terror---that's a check in the plus column for him, as far as I'm concerned. I loved his books and thought it was incredibly shallow of The Way to pull them from the bookstore. The truth is the truth. I look forward to his appearance here on Greasespot. I think that he has much to reveal to us if we will show some restraint and listen to what he has to say. Welcome, John. Hope to hear from you soon.

Rachel, what's the status on your relatonship with the son of TWI leadership? You seemed at one point to be very confident about your place in this guys heart. Are you still together?

There is no longer any official "Ban" against internet surfing or reading anti-Way sites. Nothing, in specific is being said about people's internet habits. It's part of the "kinder, gentler" Way's strategy for retention. However, I'm sure that they keep a keen ear out for "traitors" on these sites and do everything in their power to accurately identify the malcontents.

So they ARE still selling Craig's "Rise and Expansion" book, Tom? How do they square this book with the author's absence---I wonder...

Nameless, if you and your TWI beau are still "youngsters" (teens still living at home with Mom and Dad), I doubt your relationship is of much concern yet. Everyone knows that young people will usually date numerous different individuals before finding THE one they are serious about marrying. Since Way leaders(out of neccessity) have adopted a more relaxed way of dealing with their people, they are not likely to press the the panic button and begin pressuring your beau to pressure you, until it looks like things are getting very serious. You've pointed out that you have only been dating for a couple of months. At this point, there's certainly no cause for alarm on ANYONE'S part. I would take Grizzy's advice. Date and have fun with this person. I don't doubt that he/she has some wonderful personal traits and is a lot of fun to be with. In any case, you may not go the distance, even if TWI never becomes an issue. The first blush of "new love's" excitement often wears thin over time, and people grow bored with one another...The point is to keep everything in perspective. By all means, keep your eyes and ears open. Be prepared to bolt if neccessary. But I doubt you're in any immediate danger---LOL! By the way, I've got a couple of teenaged kids who, along with their father, are still TWI involved (I left several years ago, and would rather stick a fork in my eye before returning---but that's just me---LOL!). They're great kids, who don't have a mean or manipulative bone in their body. Anyone would be lucky to date either one of them. I still believe that most TWI people (especially, young ones) are decent, giving people, who just want to live according to God's will and live life relatively unscathed. The "ministry"---TWI, is an entity whose past is speckled with many dark and shameful acts, whose leaders at the top very enthusiastically endorsed and engaged in many of those acts, leaders who are now desperately trying to revamp TWI's image and "revise" its history in order to be attractive to new prospects. Keep the warnings in mind, but don't let it cloud your opinion of the person you're dating. They and TWI are NOT one and the same.

Pat, is the opinion of TWI's Lawyers equivalent to that of "The Court's"? Just because Rosie's Lawyers say it isn't "authentic" might not neccessarily make it so. What exactly do they mean when they say it's not authentic, anyway?

Whatever happened to Bo and Rene T*omas?

In various areas, we were taught that much of secular music was "devil spirit driven" or inspired. Even heard some vague references to "The Marxist Minstrels", but by and large, there wasn't an overt campaign to make people burn their secular record collection. I know I wasn't about to do such a thing. I believe the pressure to get rid of "devilish music" varied greatly from location to location, and was largely dictated by the beliefs of the powers- that-be in each area. In one area, some Corp Nazi had people afraid the mere physical presence of certain secular record albums would cause you to be possessed. In another, area leadership played the popular music of the day at parties they hosted. There was no hard and fast rule. The category of egregious oppression varied from place to place and leader to leader.

So, obviously, LCM is NOT REALLY gone. They want the rank and file believer to THINK THAT HE IS, but the fact that they've not deviated one iota from his teachings is a clear indication that he still holds sway at the top. Since they seem to believe that his teachings are still entirely biblically accurate, there really was NO REASON to exile him to the outer reaches was there?---Afterall, what's a little extra-marital sex to a ministry upper eschelon that long ago raised the practice to the level of olympic competition? No, I believe that 'Ole Loy has 'em by the short-hairs somehow. Otherwise, they would feel free to move away from his troublesome doctrines and impliment ones that would be more easily entreated---and more easily sold to outsiders. The fact that they doggedly insist on pushing the idea of "Eve's Lesbian adventure", even though many of their followers (and not a few in The Way Corp) have never succeeded in wrapping their minds around the concept, is suspicious indeed, and indicative that LCM still holds sway. So what do you think they are paying him to lay low and keep his mouth shut? Afterall, even John Gotti was able to continue to run "the family" from prison...

I'm still waiting to hear the official explaination for the doctrinal descrepancy that I pointed out to my spouse a number of months ago. I reminded out to him that we had always been taught that spirit is spirit and flesh is flesh---this was taught in reference to the eroneous idea that God could have "had sex" with Mary in order for the conception of Christ to have occured. God is "Spirit", and cannot "have sex" with a human being, they said. But I pointed out that Angels are also spirit beings and that we were never taught that Angels and Man(kind) ever engaged in sexual relations. The Devil, of course, was once the "Head Angel in Charge". There is supposedly some Christian sect or other that believes that Men and Angels (demons, actually) did indeed engage in sexual relations with one another, and even produced offspring. These liasons resulted in the race of men referred to in the Bible as, "Giants of the Earth". However, The Way never taught any such thing. However, if they persist in promoting the Devil/Eve/Lesbian connection, they may need to present the concept as "new light", in order to make the Eve/Devil sexual encounter doctrine hold together somewhat better.