Cherished Child

I still don't see any scriptural or even logical basis to the belief that we should practice speaking in tongues, via contrived "excellor sessions". It just makes no sense that I should have to predetermine even the first syllable. God is either big enough to bring forth the whole thing without my "input" or he's not. Everything to the core of my being tells me that this is not of God.

I've never been fully convinced that I was "speaking in tongues" in the manner that the disciples did on the day of pentecost. In fact, most of the time, I seriously doubted it. But I do distinctly remember being born again. It was while I was watching a Billy Graham televison crusade at the age of eleven. I could actually feel the spirit entering my body. It was the strangest sensation I've ever experienced, kind of like a power surging through my core---it's hard to describe. Suffice it to say, I've never experienced anything even remotely like it since. Certainly, nothing like that happened when I supposedly "spoke in tongues" for the first time. I moved my lips, my throat, my tongue and sounds did indeed come out. But it just felt like I was babbling. It left me feeling extremely bewildered. There were a bunch of people standing around me, who got so excited when they heard me "manifest", you would have thought I'd just walked on water. But I just kept thinking, "is that it?" I was "lead into tongues" even before I took the class. But I always felt somewhat unsettled, no matter how many times I "spoke in tongues" or how fluent I became---and I did become quite fluent. It was sometimes fun to listen to myself make the sounds, but it also seemed to take a lot of energy to do it for long periods of time. So I could never understand why people said it was "rest to the soul". I always felt like I needed rest after doing it for a while. Another thing which I desperately wanted to do, was to speak in tongues silently to myself. I have never been able to do this no matter how hard I tried. It always just sounds in my mind like a radio signal breaking up. So, it has to be tongues aloud or not at all. That always made me feel so inadequate. What really got to me by the time I threw in the towel and left the ministry, is the way manifestations during fellowship began to sound so terribly generic. There as practically NO variation from meeting to meeting. Just people saying the same things over and over again. It often echoed the latest Martindale teaching or Way Mag article being rehashed, too---usually with the exact same wording. So much for inspired utterance... But what seemed to bother me the most were those Intermediate Class "exceller sessions". It just didn't seem right that something supernatural from God would require so much intervention from man. Like some here, it really bugged me when they insisted that we practice by going through the alpabet in order to "increase our fluency". I kept think, "chapter and verse. Where in the bible did the believers of the first century church need to do such a thing?" I also wondered what a person who's tongue did not have certain english aphabet sounds was supposed to do. Many Asian languages do not have an "r" sound for instance. That's why chinese speakers have such a difficult time with words like, "rice". But nobody ever seemed to question the logic of these practices. But I did all the time. Now, several years after having left The Way, I very rarely attempt to speak in tongues, and when I do, it just doesn't feel right---still. I can pray with my understanding and feel that I've had a conversation with God, but, I've pretty much given up on genuinely speaking in tongues. I'm OK with it though. I know I'm one of God's cherished children---I was even before I ever attempted to speak in tongues.

Actually, I believe it's possible that we make be recounting the same incident. The WOW in my story was an African American, too. And 1992/93 sounds about right.

Hell no, you did nothing wrong! In fact, I think you showed amazing restraint. I would have contacted a lawyer, with harassing letters and answering machine messages as evidece, and threatened to sue the whole lot of them! Law suits seem to be the only thing that brings them up short anymore. Vickles, that was great. Glad to see someone's departure opened some eyes in the process :D-->

"(I work for LCM's *twin sister*, I swear - at least I had practice on dealing with this kind of ego before...)" Chas, is that "work",present tense or "worked", past tense? I didn't know LCM has a twin. I heard a few years back that he was estranged from his entire "earthly family", even before the Allen Lawsuit. Do you know if they managed to patch things up? What was it like, working for the sister of The Most Hight Way god?

Watered Garden, those were truly wonderful stories of deliverance. I think that that kind of thing was much more prevelent in the early days, when people were allowed to believe in the "Christ in them". Back then, people use to really and truly believe that "it was God that worked in them". Nowadays in The Way, I don't think there are many people who don't have to check with their Family or Area Coordinators first before believing that God was working in them. I remember when we were told (late '90's) that, if your leadership did not confirm that the thing you had received was revelation from God, it was NOT revelation from God! And you had better have checked with them, too! Even now, I suspect that they never teach with passion and believing that it's "Christ in you!", becuase if they did, the ministry might actually revive and DO SOMETHING for God. The realization that God had loved me enough to make me his true child (hence, my username), and that it was indeed, "Christ in me, the hope of glory", was the single most healing thing I had ever experienced. For a while, I really believed I could do the works of Jesus Christ, and that I was a member of a church that was full of people who loved with God's love and could walk with God's power. Sometimes I think I would give anything to have that belief back again, to feel that love and deliverance, to know that I know that I know. It's times like this that I realize how much I'm still grieving the loss.

I think the way Christmas was handled within TWI differed from area to area, sometimes drastically. However, what seemed to prevail throughout was always an underlying ambivilence. One the one hand, it was a devilish holiday, filled with horrible pagan inspired traditions. But on the other, it was OK to participate in it TO A DEGREE, as long as you held no delusions about its roll in the life of a "true believer". So basically, we were given to believe that we could put up a tree, give presents and enjoy the day TO A DEGREE, but that we were NOT to put angels on our tree, a creche on the mantle, sing tradtional caroles having to do with Jesus Christ (Jingle Bells was OK, though), or send out "holiday cards" with messages or artwork pertaining to the birh of Christ. Also, we were told that to lead our kids to believe in Santa was tantamount to setting up an "idol" before them, causing them to worship another god. I always thought that stance was a bit drastic, but I went along with it anyway... So we told our kids right off that there was no real Santa Claus, but that he was a "fun character", like Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny or Scoobie-do. We also admonished them to keep that secret to themselves because there were kids whose parents truly wanted them to believe in Santa, and kids who wanted to believe, also. It seemed to work out. But I always kind of missed not being able to make Christmas magic for my kids through their belief in Santa Claus. I fondly remember the way it felt to believe in the magic. That wonderous innocence goes away all too quickly, replaced by the inevitable hard realities of life. In the end, I believe, it would have been totally harmless. I now think that it should be OK to celebrate the birth of our Savior on this day. Most of the world knows that Christ wasn't born on Dec. 25th anyway. It's not on which day he was born that matters so much as why he was born and, how God triumphed over evil as a result. Now, I don't mind the creche, or even the angels, or any of that. I play Christmas music and think about what the birth of Jesus Christ would ultimately mean to a world dead in sin and trespasses. It makes me thankful. One of the biggest thing I'm thankful for, is that I don't have to be ambivilent about Christmas anymore. I can say, "christmas" without reservation or fear. It sure makes enjoying the holiday a lot more pleasant. [This message was edited by Cherished Child on December 18, 2003 at 16:12.]

STFU---Now that reminds me of a story, a true one, actually. Some of you might have even been present when this went down: Rock of Ages, just before LCM cancelled the WOW program. There was a meeting held in the Living Room Tent for Twig Coordinators and persons interested in becoming one. LCM, Howard, and several big wigs were seated in wing chairs on the stage. There were teachings and "sharings" and, at the end, people were encouraged to line up at a microphone set up near the stage to share their thoughts on Twig Coordination. Quite a line formed and several folks got up and proceeded to kiss butt big time, telling LCM and the BOT how blessed they were to be leading God's people in such a wonderful mininstry, and "God Bless Rev. Martindale and the BOT", etc... --> A few had some simple and rather innocuous questions about the logistics of submitting certain forms, etc. Then this one WOW came to the mike. He was wearing one of the arm bands they use to give to people who were committed to going WOW for the upcoming year. He got about six or seven words out of his mouth---something like, "We need to...(do such in such)". I didn't even understand the last couple of words, because LCM reared up and shouted into his mike, "SHUT THE FU#K UP!" An audible gasp rippled through the room. Then Craig went on to tell this guy that it was NOT this guy's place to say what "We needed to do"---it was his (Craig's) and the BOT's. Then he said a couple of other things that I don't quite remember. The room was so silent for a couple of seconds, you could hear a pin drop. But then the humiliated WOW recovered from his shock and got MAD! He tore off that arm band, threw it on the ground and stormed out of the tent. By now, waves of whispers and gasps were rippling throughout the room. People were honestly in total shock, because this whole scene just came out of nowhere. To say that this incident sent me into a spiritual and emotional tailspin, would be to put it lightly. LCM motioned for John Reynolds (I think it was him) to go after this guy. Then LCM turned to address the room, which I'm sure he could see was still shell shocked. First, he apologized for his choice of language ("because there were children in the room"). Then he went on to elaborate upon why he had been totally right to shut this guy down. Needless to say, the meeting ended pretty soon after this. This incident set off the single loudest alarm bell I had yet heard to ring through my head about the "rightness" of my involvement in The Way. Yet, it was several years later, before I got up the courage to actually leave. So what does that have to do with CES's new name? Well, STFU could easily come to stand for "Shut The Fu#k up!" Any group---particularly a TWI offshoot---that operates under a format remotely resembling that of TWI's has my caution bells vibrating, if not ringing outright.

Thanks Rags. I understand that it can be very painful, recounting the crap. Say no more. Danny, if God told you to tell me something, spit it out!-----Oh, I get it now----it's a joke! LOL...

Rags, congratulations on your escape! How recently was this? You said things "got ugly". If you would be so kind, please explain what you meant by "ugly". Whatever happened to the "kinder, gentler Way?" Probably extinct, along with the dinosaurs and "the Prevailing Word"...LOL... Where has God taken me since I left The Way (some 6 odd years ago)? That's a hard question to answer. Sometimes, I think nowhere at all. Sometimes when I think of my escape, I feel like a German Jew who has just made it across the border into Switzerland. I'm still leaning against a rock, trying to catch my breath, waiting for my heart to stop palpatating. Meanwhile, all I can think is that I'll NEVER put myself in the position to be treated like that by ANYONE again. Before I got involved with The Way, I had learned by experience to be wary of "Christians in groups". After my stint of being abused and manipulated by The Way, I've wholeheartedly renewed that operating procedure. I don't trust ANYBODY who claims they speak for God anymore. NOBODY!

A full Auditorium and 5000(!) others on the phone?! Anybody buying those numbers? 14 international countries? Yeah...right...

Wow...I'm almost speechless...But not quite. After reading Harve Platig's rebuttal of J.P's letter, LOTS of thoughts have run though my mind. Here are some, in no particular order: That THIS ISSUE would be the ONLY ONE raised by posters here at GS to garner an "official" TWI response, is more than worthy of a bit of eye-brow raising. That the response did not come from "The Right Reverend Rivenbark" herself, but rather from an "underling", is also interesting. It would seem that even in this instance, she is not willing to personally put herself on the line, electing instead to remain silent behind her title, covering her---well, you know! So again, as others here have asked, why THIS ISSUE? Why do they care what the readers of Greaspot Cafe believe about their treatment of Mrs. Wierwille? By years of stoney silence, they've certainly indicated that they don't give a rat's hindquarters for what we believe about the actions of her husband, The Founding President of The Way. They've never publicly defended their treatment of any of the many thousands of past Way followers. I believe this unprecidented breach in "the wall of silence" came because the accusation this time originated from one of the Wierwille children, and as I have said before, "such an unimpeachable source" has the power to perhaps shake some of the remaining "Waybots" out of their stupor. Action had to be taken. Given their inability to attract more than a handful of new ("abundance sharing") followers during the past number of years, millions of dollars are potentially at stake! However, a question I raised in my last post still begs to be answered: Why have not ALL the Wierwille children responded publicly "as a cohesive unit" to the issue of TWI's treatment of their mother? Certainly, they all have opinions on this issue. If all the Wierwille siblings are in one accord, why didn't they all sign that rather incendiary letter posted on J.P.'s sight? There is much more to this story than what is stated in either J.P or Harve's letters. But I don't believe we'll be hearing from The BOD of The Way International on this issue again (or any other issue, for that matter), until J.P., and/or his siblings comes forward again to offer detailed evidence of his/their greivances against The Way. I have to admit that I found J.P.'s letter a bit confusing: Given the reported lack of access he and his siblings have encountered in regard to their mother at her home, why would he feel that she should have received round the clock care on the grounds of The Way? If my mother were dying of Alzheimer's, I certainly would not agree to any care that would restrict my access to her, especially if I believed that her caregivers potentially DID NOT have her best interest at heart. J.P. indicated that she was now receiving the care that she should have received at Headquarters and that, in her more lucid moments, Mrs. Wierwille has said that she does not wish to go back to her home there. This is a good thing, is it not? So what is the grievance---that TWI is not fully providing for her financial well-being? They have emphatically stated that Mrs. Wierwille's round the clock care is being covered 100% from a number of different sources (though not in ANY way from follower contributions). I do not have first hand experience in such matters as the financial arrangements necessary for nursing home care (thank God!). But I've been told that, in many cases, liquidation of a person's entire assets has been necessary in order for it to continue. Perhaps this is the rub. After all that Mrs. Wierwille has suffered and sacrificed at the hands of TWI, she will, in the end, have been sucked dry. Mentally. Emotionally. Financially. And TWI will have in it's coffers, assets that should rightfully be hers and her children's. Just a bit of speculation---which may be totally wrong. In any case, I'm still very much hoping to hear the full story about this and countless other issues surrounding TWI.

Sorry Rafael, didn't mean to step on your toes. Charles Stanley is by no means the worst offender in my opinion, but have you ever noticed how he signs his name? I dabble in handwriting analysis (which is a science, not any sort of occult/psychic ability), and Charle's shows that he has quite the "healthy ego". However, like I said, my sense of mistrust is SO deep, mine is hardly an objective opinion. Before becoming involved with The Way, by virtue of all my prior experiences, I had come to distrust what I called, "Christians in groups". Things went terribly awry not long into my Way experience, only confirming my first instinct. Now, I can only take "so called believers" a very few at a time. It just seems that once they organize into a church or ministry, it's only a matter of time before they grow collective fangs. I expect the world to try to work me over, but I cannot countenance that sort of behavior from my "so called, brothers and sisters in Christ."

I believe I've dropped every one of my old Way habits. It's been more than five years since I've attended any kind of religious service or fellowship and the longer I refrain from doing so, the less I miss it. And I feel not the slightest bit of guilt. But I'm sad to say that EVERY person presenting him/herself as a "minister of God/paster" whom I've observed thusfar, strikes me as suspect. That includes the likes of Charles Stanley, Joyce Meyer, John Hagie (just name a tele-evangelist). et al. They seem heavily invested in their own egos, showing very little humility---but Good God, can they put on a show! I'll admit though, that my perceptions may be entirely false. I believe it's just a function of my now hyper-tuned antennae, an internal apperatus that protects me from ever allowing myself to be dubed into handing my heart over to any group of "christians" again.

Sorry, Thomas. Haven't seen Lindy anywhere...(sigh)...

Thomas Crown, glad to see you posting. Your perspective as an "insider" is very enlightening as to the current state of affairs at TWI and very much appreciated by us here (especially those of us who have spouses still doggedly committed to this business endeavor masquarading as a "ministry). Anyway, one of your posts on this thread mentions that copies of one of the "new policy memos" read during fellowships was not made available to you because they are "copywrited documents". I just had to laugh. It appears that Rosie and the BOD have learned their painful lesson from the Waydale era well. I don't know if you're aware of this, but during the time when an anti-Way site called, Waydale was at it's most embarassing to TWI, one of the things used to damning effect, was TWI's own documents and memos disseminated to leadership among both staff and Corp on the field. I cannot count the number of times, Waydale exposure of such documents served to lift the veil of secrecy that TWI had worked so hard to maintain. These documents were scanned and posted on Waydale, revealing such heartless and restricting policies as, the Way Corp Baby Policy, Corp and Staff Pet Policy, Corp teachings and many Letters to The Corp that the BOT must have prefered not be made common knowledge. They certainly couldn't deny the existence of such documents since, once those "cats were out of the bag", there was no stuffing them back in. It was a time during which the klieg light of truth concerning the real nature of TWI was turned on full, 24/7 and they were scurrying like roaches, trying to find a dark corner in which to hide and figure out damage control. It was a wonderful thing to behold. Not coincidentally, it was during this time that the largest exodus of believers since "The Fog", amoung both leadership and your average Joe occurred---and many, many left even before the LCM sex scandal blew up in their faces! So yes, they are now very carefully guarding all written policy. The more copies desiminated, the more chance that such documents will end up on sites such as this for all the world to see. Can't have that now, can we..? Especially since policy and doctrine are such fluid things, subject to change at whim. Witness how they are handling the whole "Debt" sticky-wickett. It must really cheese them off to know that they are still not able to control their followers 100%. Even after the exodus of so many from among their ranks, there are still many who come to web sites such as Greasespot to express their dissatisfactions, and more importantly, report the goings-on at The Way.

Oh, and by the Way, Thomas Crown: Welcome! Welcome to Greasepot! Reading posts from people who are still "in" is very enlightening. Please keep on shining for us.

Dear Thomas Crown and Napkin Lady, I am sorry to report that I have not, as of yet been given the skinny on the debt teachings. My source has only heard part one of the three part series of teachings on this subject and prefers to receive it in total before we discuss it. Believe me, I'm VERY curious about what the "present truth" is on this subject myself. When I find out, I'll be sure to pass it along. Stay tuned...

I know of at least one area where they are doing an extensive, three part teaching series on "The Biblical Definition of Debt" in Fellowship Coordinator's meetings. Things that may you go, huuummmmm.... I think it's telling that they are doing it at the FC level. It can't be long before the new and revised doctrine is released to Joe Wayfers everywhere. As Gomer Pile would say, "Revise, Revise, Revise!"----uh, I mean...well, you know...