wrdsandwrks

I know your 55th is coming up???

55th what? She's got to be older than 55, no?

There have been people, who did forgive TWI and have moved on with their lives, but they still render the tattooed numbers on their arms to show they have been in the camps (so-to-speak). They speak and tell people "Danger, Danger, warning Dr. Smith" (borrowed from Lost in Space)

Or they put up a road sign warning of a danger ahead. Because they will talk about it, does not mean they have not forgiven, it means they LOVE enough to continue to warn and show people TWI was a hurtful mechanism in our lives. The VP apologist need for them to shut up as well, so they come in and NO YOU HAVE NOT forgiven or you would not continue to discuss "The evils of TWI" You would throw it away - as far as the east is from the west and remember it no more.

Now, we can look at forgiveness as a productive healthy tool -- but I rarely see that "forgiveness" ever being offered to the posters here.

forgiveness weapon used to bludgeon.

Great insight, this thread has me thinking, praying, and going to the Bible for answers. I agree with you Dot, "forgiveness doctrine" should never be used as a weapon against victims who can and should be encouraged to speak up, tell their stories, warn others and realize that we/they are not the only ones who have been through what they have been through.

Speaking up and exposing evil is so important. The doctrine that TWI promolgated about the "lockbox" has kept so many bound up with garbage on the inside and no way to release it. It just stays and festers and promotes continued bondage. You don't heal a bullet wound by just sewing up the wound and leaving the bullet inside, it has to be removed before the wound can heal. It is good and healthy, kathartic, to expose wrongs and to warn others of the dangers. GS has helped many who may have been "recruited" to join TWI realize that it is not a healthy organization and so avoid joining it, and others who are "in" can see that there is "life" after TWI and that what they are being told or probably more so "not told" by leadership is not the whole story. This is a healthy service that GS provides. Everyone who has been through TWI in whatever version should be encouraged to tell their story. It is healthy and important. It benefits the one telling and the one hearing.

The other side of this, or maybe not so much the other side but a completely different side, I believe, is that forgiveness(not silence, not keeping it all in) is healthy, not only is it healthy but necessary. Please, understand my heart, I'm not trying to use this as a "weapon to bludgeon", but as a step of faith, to receiving healing and having a powerful prayer life. Forgiveness does not equal silence.

Mark 11:25 And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.

It seems clear to me that "anything against anyone" means that forgiveness is required. Forgive in this verse is present imperative active. It says, while you're praying, forgive.

I stand here today, on the other side of a twenty year process. The more grievous the wrong, the more grace needed. But I trust that Jesus would never command us to do something that he wouldn't provide the ability to do. I've stood over and over again at various altars and during church sevices mouthing the words, "I forgive xxxxx" begging God for the "feeling" of forgiveness to overtake the feelings of hurt that I had. Praise God that He is faithful. It's a supernatural miracle of God to receive the grace to forgive. It's a miracle of healing, who does the miracle? I provided the desire and He provided the power. It wasn't a one-time thing either.

I thank God for healthy spirit-filled churches and healthy teachers and preachers of the Word of God who have led me in service after service to give all the hurt, betrayal, shame, anger, despair and everything else and allow the power of God to forgive to overcome. This is not just a TWI issue. So many Christians have been hurt and wounded and betrayed by leaders they once trusted. So many Christians still have "the bullets" of past hurts inside and never step in to the supernatural power of God to heal, physically, mentally and spiritually.

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T-Bone, LOL.

If Indulgences R Us doesn't do it for you, you can always go to e-confession and receive virtual absolution:

http://www.absolution-online.com/confessional/

Agape99

Thanks for the reminder. Yes, there is life afer The Way, and it gets better and better the further away you get.

Dooj,

As usual, great insight. It relates also I think, to T-Bone's great insight about the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation

I wonder how many of those observing the crucifixion that day became followers of Jesus after the resurrection.

Here's CRs info

That's cool. I hope she does great with her business! Thanks for posting that URL.

Reformed theology does not proclaim "eternal security" for those who have in some sense made a positive decision about Christ. It holds that those who are really elect will persevere unto the end. It also recognizes that some in the visible church who are professing believers will fall away.

Thanks for that clarification Cynic. I am trying to understand the nuances of Calvinism vs Arminianism and I'm sure I don't have a handle on it. But in the interest of disclosure, I would have to identify myself at this point with the Arminians.

To document that Cynic is correct, here is part of the wikipedia entry on TULIP:

Perseverance of the saints (The "P" in the TULIP of Calvinism)

Also called the "preservation of the saints" or "eternal security," the fifth point teaches that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by human will or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return. This is slightly different from the "once saved, always saved" view prevalent in some evangelical churches in which, despite apostasy or unrepentant and habitual sin, the individual is truly saved if he or she had truly accepted Christ in the past; in traditional Calvinist teaching, apostasy by such a person may be proof that they never were saved.

(Dan, apologies if this is off topic, but somehow I think it relates to the N.T. Wright controversy, but I could be wrong)

Arminianism from Wikipedia:

Arminianism is a school of soteriological thought in Protestant Christian theology founded by the Dutch theologian Jacob Hermann, who was best known by the Latin form of his name, Jacobus Arminius. Its acceptance stretches through much of mainstream Protestantism. Due to the influence of John Wesley, Arminianism is perhaps most prominent in the Methodist movement.

Within the broad scope of church history, Arminianism is closely related to Calvinism (or Reformed theology), and the two systems share both history and many doctrines in common. Nonetheless, they are often viewed as archrivals within Evangelicalism because of their disagreement over the doctrines of predestination and salvation.

Arminianism holds to the following tenets:

Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation

Salvation is possible by grace alone

Works of human effort cannot cause or contribute to salvation

God's election is conditional on faith in Jesus

Jesus' atonement was for all people

God allows his grace to be resisted by those unwilling to believe

Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith

Great article. Is there something controversial about it?

Here are some of my notes and favorite quotes from the article:

There are two common responses to paganism:

dualism or assimilation: The third is to confront it in love by giving up rights for others

Avoiding pagan life styles by avoiding the raw material in which they deal is dualism; assimilating to those life styles is to abandon allegiance to the one God. The genuine alternative to both ways is to embrace the gospel as the reality of which paganism is the distorted copy.

Paul puts Jesus in the center of the great Jewish monotheistic texts:

I Cor. 8:5,6

Phil. 2:5-11

Col. 15-20

(This is something I would like to study further, he says that Paul is redefining monotheism by inserting Jesus Christ in the middle of Deut 6:4, the Shema)

"I punish my body and enslave it;" writes Paul, "so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified" 1 Corinthians 9:27.

A spirituality that does not contain at least the possibility of such an attitude stands under the warning that, though professing Christianity, it may in fact have embraced some form of paganism.

(This verse obviously contradicts Calvinist eternal security)

It's interesting to me that I Cor 10:1 claims as "our ancestors" the children of Israel in the wilderness:

So, while claiming the Jewish heritage not only for himself but for his erstwhile pagan converts ("our ancestors," v.1), he sees that one must go further.

This celebration resembles pagan feasts simply in the way that the sun is like a lightbulb: the former is the reality of which the latter is a copy invented by humans.

Instead of either assimilating or retreating into a dualistic ghetto, the church must seek to build shrines for the true god on ground at present occupied by paganism.

what Bliss and ex10 said makes sense to me, and i think of Jesus' words on the cross (which Washington alluded to)

I also think of Stephen in Acts 7:59,60

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,

And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them! And having said this he fell asleep.

Stephen obviously forgave those who killed him. I also wonder how much his dying prayer had to do with the future salvation of Saul of Tarsus who in the words of the NIV (Acts 8:1)

And Saul was there, giving approval to his death.

it's quite plain that they were unrepentant at that time, so i would take exception to your question:

That said, repentence for the wrongdoer is a very good thing, as is apology and reparation. God's judgment is up to Him, and I'm sure He will take into account whatever is right.

Last year, not far from here, a milkman killed a bunch of Amish kids at a school. He was going to rape the little girls first, but thankfully he didn't. I passed by the place today. It's absolutely inconceivable, but it happened. Where do you stick this stuff in your heart? There's nowhere for it but to give it to God.

It is inconceivable. I remember that the Amish people captured the attention of the world, not just because this horiffic crime was perpetrated against them, but also because they publically forgave the murderer and his family. The media was buzzing about their amazing words of forgiveness and how they reached out to muderer's wife in forgiveness and compassion, truly witnessing to the miraculous power of forgiveness.

what day are we on?

http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/

The ten days are from Rosh Hashanah, which was last Thursday, the 13, to Yom Kippur, which is this Saturday, the 22. All Jewish holidays go from sundown the evening before to sunset the next day.

Not everyone's cup of tea, I'm sure.

N.T. Wright has, for me, brought possibilities to many of my former simplistic answers to certain theological questions. His books addressing the lay reader and non-scholar include Simply Christian, his modest version of C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, and The Last Word, subtitle: Beyond the Bible Wars to a New Understanding of the Authority of Scripture. To these and others, he adds both scholarly works, as well as even simpler, very short books. IIR, two of the titles are The Meal Jesus Left Us and The Prayer Jesus Left Us.

There are many Internet resources presenting and discussing the theology of N.T. Wright, and the "new understanding of Paul" which he and others have been discussing for the last few decades. One good starting place is here.

This article, One God, One Lord, One People is as good an introduction to Wright's writing as anything. I would welcome any comments from interested parties.

Great stuff Dan, I only had a few minutes this morning, and I read through about half of the article. Will have to finish it later and come back to the discussion.

i'm sorry. i was nasty. i skimmed over some of the list stuff and saw "elders" and took it the wrong way. i shouldn't have posted. and i wasn't really directing my nastiness to anyone in particular, which still doesn't make it right, of course.

Which is why I look up to you, you're still the coolest girl in the 9C.

It's been 13 years since twi threw me out and turned me over to satan. That devastating blow crippled me in a few ways for a long time. Today, I believe I've gained back the last of what I lost in that act.

This evening I attended and took part in my first actual bible study since that day. Oh, I've attended church a few dozen times since then, mostly in the last few years. I've just never found a church I felt comfortable with. Til now.

Who knows, I may even attend the Sunday School class next week before the service! I really, really enjoyed it.

Bowtwi, That is so great.

So glad to hear about it and I pray that you find a "church home" there where you can learn and grow and contribute.

ex-post-Way-centric

Is that a new spin-off? (JK)

T-Bone, very interesting stuff on antinomy. I'll have to read the J.I. Packer book.

I haven't been following this thread much because to me it seemed like almost a no-brainer, of course God knows everything, he knows the end from the beginning and everything in between. But there's some great depth in here to ponder, thanks everyone.

ohhhhhhhhhhh THAT one :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I had more in mind the "list" of people I respect and look up to, Excie you're right up there on my "list" too. (Sorry should've put quotes around it the first time.)

(It's like walking in a mine field around here.)

The people on my "list" were those who occured to me at the moment as "elders."

Dan, You're at the top of my list of "elders".

That's quite a group you've put me in, there, Dot. From my point of view, I'd say that AnotherDan is willing and ready to learn from anyone, and to love anyone, but the ones I look up to most around here include TBone, Wrdsandwrks, Abi, George Aar, Socks, ButNowISee, Another Spot, Pawtucket, JohnJ, and debbieb. And others.

Dan, Thanks for including me in your list. I'm honored.

Hi Doug and welcome. We tried different churches but it didn't work for us so we have fellowship in our home with a group of people.

Right now we are studying Galatians and learning that there are 5 Hebrew words for "law" that were translated into one English word "LAW", which has caused great confusion in understanding Galatians. We are also studying about the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, who the lost tribes of Israel are and the return of Israel. And we are doing a study on the Covenants. The "Law", Kingdoms, lost tribes and covenants all fit togethere in the end days.

I wish you were here to study with us - everyone brings food and we have a great time studying together all day long. But different people have different needs so don't have any blinders on and let God take you where it will be good for you. It's nice to have you here.

Edi, Sounds like some interesting stuff. I'd be interested in hearing what you're studying about the Law. Maybe a thread in doctrinal...?

Dan, thanks for sharing that, it was very relevant and informative. Until two days ago, I was completely unaware that Christians observed a form of these holy days.

Words, I started to listen to what you posted but real life called, I will get back to it. After that, I think I will finish my Holy Days away from here.

Thanks for all of your participation in this thread, everyone!

Dan, I wonder if the idea for Lent came from the Jewish Day of Atonement? After your post I read the Catholic encyclopedia article on the origin of Lent. Don't have time to get into it now, but thanks for the interesting article

Abi, Understand about taking some time off, but selfishly, if I could or should I would beg you to stay.

Here's an interesting perspective on the Rosh HaShanah and the Days of Awe:

The Meaning of Rosh Hashanah:

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/230800.aspx

One testimony:

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/abdul.html

and here's a Christian Today article (not Christianity Today)

visions of Jesus:

Here's another one:

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/69001.aspx

((((((((((Dear Wrdsandwrks)))))))))))))))),

That would really seem strange indeed! Traditions are not bad things essentially ...Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled!

I love to see the holiday lights and decorations. The mood of giving out of love and simply generosity is beautiful to behold! It doesn't have to be at all about money and obligation; I still believe that the best gifts are priceless or free!

I Love You Wrdsandwrks, RainbowsGirl

Just saw this one today, Back at you with the love, (((((((((RainbowsGirl))))))))))

I love Christmas too. Seems like it gets pushed back earlier every year.

One of the best days of my life was my son's first Christmas. Watching him open presents was so special, even though he seemed to like the boxes better than the actual toys he got. That was fifteen years ago but still a very special memory.

I read somewhere recently that Sept. 11 was significant to the Muslims because it was the date of a significant defeat of the Muslims back in the early days. (I'll have to look it up to remember the exact event.) I'm sure it was a spiritually significant day and connecting it to Rosh Hashanah and the birth of Jesus is very perceptive.

Happy Birthday Socks!

Great picture!

I remember how much I used to love listening to Joyful Noise. Thanks for the inspiration!

So, that is my personal focus. It doesn't have to be, nor should it necessarily be anyone else's focus. :)

Abi, Great thread, count me in. I've been reading up on the whole time frame and I love it. I'm taking some time to meditate and pray about my Teshuvah.

Dear Abi,

I agree with all your posts in this thread and my experience with Larry is the same as yours has been! Too often we are too quick to judge or defend ourself unnecessarily. It would be so nice if we could be brave enough and strong enough to treat one another as we wanted to be treated and go the the extra mile to make sure not to hurt anyone...!

Pro 16:32 [He that is] slow to anger [is] better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city

Jam 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

I Love You All; and fortunately, it isn't dependent on how or whether you love me or see my heart in anything else nor the fact that I am replying here!

Abi, RG, Mr. Squirrel and really everyone on this thread, Love you guys, glad to be on this journey with you!

I really feel the same way. I lived in ''fantasy'' land as a child, and it helped me search and wonder about the world and its Creator!

Great point. So did I. I hadn't really thought about how it made me hungry for the "real" world made known by the Way, the Truth and the Life.