def59

One more point VPW didn't come up with the seven epistles thing, it was Bullinger.

We have 66 books that serve as our curriculum. Elevating seven letters that point BACK to Christ and the Gospels and the Old Testament is wrong! When we elevate Paul's letters over Christ's words in the Gospels we commit idolatry. Do we follow Paul? Did he die for our sins? Paul knew the answer.

I don't think Dr. is going to be "up." He taught a doctrine of devils and sold his soul for money and power and lust. I am afraid he is facing a heated experience right now.?

deserves at least 10 repliesf

G-E-T O-U-To

Here's another view on what vpw meant. By Dr. John Juedes, C. 1984. Mike, the C. means copyright. The Law of Believing and Prosperity A learned man brought to this century a fresh teaching-that Jesus came that believers would have a more abundant life. The teacher taught steps to victorious living, which yield happiness, sufficiency, success and health-all of which are God's will for mankind. Positive faith, he said, brings about happiness and victory, while negative faith results in nervousness, failure and sickness. These effects must result, for this is a law of life. A person can achieve any good thing if he believes strong enough in it. If he prays believing he is now receiving, results are assured. A human being must overcome his tendency to limit God by keeping God's power latent within. The teacher summed up his steps to victory-"let go and let God!" The "Doctor" explains the source of his teachings: "Many of the subjects I have given in my Bible class have been dictated to me by my loved ones long since passed on... (that is, dictated via "my psychic work." (1) Although Victor Paul Wierwille would reject mediumship as his source of doctrine, he would unquestionably agree to the teachings listed above. In fact, Wierwille infers that Albert E. Cliffe, the author of these tenets, was once his mentor. Cliffe was one of those who "were guests of Dr. Wierwille's local congregation" during the 16 years as pastor when Wierwille "searched the Word of God for keys to victorious living."(2) The back cover of Cliffe's 1951 book Let Go and Let God offers a brief biography: "Albert E. Cliffe, a professional biochemist, turned from his work in industry to become a lay reader of the Church of England in Canada and the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States, and an outstanding leader in the movement for spiritual healing within the organized church. News of his work spread all over the world and Dr. Cliffe carried this work, in the course of speaking tours, throughout Canada, to the United States, and to England. He received the unusual honor, for a Canadian and a layman, of being invited to open the Congress of the United States with prayer. The late Dr. Cliffe authored other books including lessons in Successful Living-" Though Let Go and Let God focuses on ten steps in victorious living, it also reveals Cliffe's beliefs on the important topics of God, man and Christ. Although he claimed Episcopalian beliefs early in life, he later the New Thought classic "In Tune with the Infinite" by Ralph Waldo Trine and took courses on spiritual healing from Metaphysical Schools which brought him to a new conception of God: "I found the Kingdom-of Heaven within me and, oh, how my ideas of God changed.(3) God to me is all life, all power, all love."(4) God is the name given to that unchangeable principle which is the source of all life, of all existence. As God He is impersonal, but as we come to know Him day by day as expressed in each one of us, He really becomes personal to us...(5)" Man, Cliffe newly concluded, must contain the divine energy for "My mind is part of His divine-mind"(6) and "we are inseparable from God"(7), Cliffe wrote. Man's goal, then, is to grow, developing his latent "God power" since "...if there is an unpardonable sin it is the damming up of God's powers within us." (8) According to Cliffe, attainment of this goal is aided by the impersonal Christ force indwelling every human being. Since "there is no death"(9) a person simply goes to "that plane of thought which you have prepared for yourself" which can loosely be termed "heaven" or "hell."(10) Cliffe's pantheistic viewpoint combats Scripture, promoting man from sinful creature to a microcosm of the "Creator." These a-Christian beliefs have been marketed for centuries by mystics and occultists, often under the thin disguise of Christian terminology which Cliffe favors. If Wierwille did realize Cliffe's alarming beliefs about God, man and Christ, he was knowingly exposing his Ohio congregation to possible great spiritual harm. If Wierwille did not realize Cliffe's non-Christian beliefs, he did not probe Cliffe on doctrinal matters or was theologically naive. In either case, Wierwille did adopt at least one key Cliffe teaching- that positive faith (which Wierwille termed "believing faith" in 1957 and "believing" beginning sometime after 1962) will yield health, happiness, prosperity and success while negative faith (fear) must result in failure, sadness and sickness because this is a law under which every human on earth lives. Wierwille's teaching and terminology closely mimic Cliffe's, as a comparison of their works indicates.(11) While Cliffe heads each chapter of Let Go and Let God with a brief Bible verse he does not attempt to prove his teachings with Scripture. Wierwille, on the other hand, attempts to illustrate from Scripture his theory of "believing" thereby "Christianizing" this spiritist's ideas.(12) One thing is sure. Wierwille's source far his teaching on believing was neither the Holy Spirit nor the Word of God, but Albert Cliffe, who spiritually stood far outside the bounds of biblical Christianity. NOTES: 1. Albert E. Cliffe, Let Go-and Let God (Englewood Cliffs. N. J.: Prentice-Hall, 1951), P. 157. It was republished sometime after 1957 as a Guidepost selection with God Can Heal You Now by Emily Gardiner Neal for keys to powerful victorious living ." 2. Cliffe is mentioned in most of the biographies of Wierwille printed in or accompanying his books (although sometimes his name is misspelled "Cliff"). 3. Cliffe, Let Go-and Let God, p. 162. 4. Ibid, p.163. 5. Ibid, p.163-164. 6. Ibid, p. 133. Cliffe also refers to God as "Divine Mind," "Mind," "Good" and "God Power." 7. Ibid, p. 149. 8. Ibid, p. 151. 9. Ibid, p. 155. Ibid, p. 158. 11. Wierwille teaches on the "law of believing" in The Bible Tells Me So, Parts I and II, pages 1-46 (1971) and Power for Abundant Living, pages 1-61 (1971). Cliffe's books include "Let Go and Let God" (a phrase which has become a favorite Way aphorism),and "Lessons in Successful Living" and Signposts. Especially relevant chapters of Let Go and Let God are entitled- "There is Magic In Believing" and "The Law of Cause and Effect." Relevant chapters in "Lessons in Successful Living" (Prentice-Hall, 1950, 1952, 1953; which is the revised edition of "Lessons in Living") include "Spiritual Healing," "Positive and Negative Thinking" and "Tithes and the Law of Prosperity." "Lessons in Successful Living" was republished sometimes after 1969 as a Guideposts selection. 12. See The Integrity and Accuracy of The Way's Word for a description and critique of The Way's doctrine of believing. Christian bookstores often carry books which address this teaching in the form of the "word-faith" Christian sects. Dr. John Juedes, C. 1984. d

Ok Mike BUT the bible is no longer your standard because it is a mere translation of a man.?ÿö It is the KJV and other versions that I see as much weaker on the list of priorities to study. I see KJV verses and promises WITHIN the PFAL books and see them as totally sufficient for my life. My standard is what is in print in the PFAL writings. Welcome to the Mormon Church Mike, they already have special book that holds priority over Scripture. It is pointless now to discuss this issue further since you have shown your apostasy for all to see. Good-bye Mike. f

Ok Mike BUT the bible is no longer your standard because it is a mere translation of a man.? It is the KJV and other versions that I see as much weaker on the list of priorities to study. I see KJV verses and promises WITHIN the PFAL books and see them as totally sufficient for my life. My standard is what is in print in the PFAL writings.

So word, if Mike does not believe the Bible, then how can he believe PFal when vpw used the bible and pointed us back to the bible for truth? He is indeed winnie the pooh without the winnie. Logic won't faze him and neither will love, fear or believing. Because I have been believing he will change. So how come the law doesn't work here. My need to see him change and my wanting a change in him are parallel. God is able to change him and from the Bible I can see He is willing to change him. So why does it not happen? Mike you are like the old Worldwide Church of God started by Armstrong. Your whole identity is based on the belief that you are special and have hidden knowledge that only you and your dr. vic decoder ring can discern truth. But they repented and came back to Christ. MJ I love your posts and passion for Christ. He alone is my strength and shield. He is my deliverer. I will continue to rely on the scriptures and seek them daily to find the path for my life. I am using the New Living Translation now and it is a blessing to read Jesus in the language of my time and not what Shakespeare spoke.

Best way I know is to get everyone drunk, so the dogs become foxes :)-->

Am I an OLG? Foundational and intermediate PFAL ? 1978 $100 Renewed Mind 1978 $50? WOW 1978 $400 CF+S Rise and Expansion Dealing with the Adversary 1980-1986 $300 WOW 1980 $600 WOW 1982 $400 Advanced Class-Emporia w/John Lynn 1986 $450 Way Experience Worthless W

I find it amazing that no one called mike (GC as I call him) on his forgeries remark. If the translations are forgeries then how can ever know if pfal is god's word? Since piffle uses those "forgeries" and the weakest of the "forgeries" (KJV) then it seems mike mogfot liked it well enough? c

Ok Mike Whoever you really are. I took a look at your index and your openin salvo. I still cannot for the life of me, figure what you want us to believe. Your rejection of Wierwille's preening was exemplary. But who showed you these lost teachings? Why were they lost? Who lost them? Did something really bad happen to you in 1998? Did you grab onto PFAL hoping for anwwer and now you feel irrevocably stuck? It is not too late to come back to the Lord. Zeal for minutiae will not bring peace. Take Jesus at his word and see how much he can transform you. It is his words, not any man's which has the power of life. '

Mike You remind me Winnie the Pooh, without the Winnie. Stop Indexing and start responding. The Joseph Smith post was perfect. Mike violates Scripture by putting PFAL on par with Scripture because we are not to add to it. Nor take away. Which is what vpw did.g

Mike I am surprised and shocked. No response. I guess that means I win doesn't it? Well folks, war's over. Time to end the thread. W

Mike, Since vpw used Scripture to defend his points. And you beluieve the Bible is tattered remnants, should we scrap our bibles? Or should we keep KJV and scrap NIV, NLT et al? I just bought a copy of the New Living Translation and it opens so much more than 17th century English. If KJV is still valid, which edition of KJV is acceptable? There have been several revisions since the original 1611 text. Please explain. And if what you say is right about the time Dr. made this teaching (i.e. right before he died) Did it ever occur to you that his mind and body were being ravaged by cancer (in wayworld ? a devil spirit) So if he was being possessed (based on vpw's own theology) then how we can take his teaching as logos? I'll take my chances with the remnants you despise and from teachers you deem unworthy. So there is no doubt about my pov I believe in the Bible I believe in God the Father, God the Son and Holy Spirit. I believe Jesus died on the cross, rose and ascended and is coming back. I believe the Holy Spirit dwells within me. I believe Jesus is the only way to heaven. I believe Jesus' words are the words of God. I believe the Old Testament has the same authority as the New since the word does not contradict itself. I believe I have found the true God and have rejected ALL that vpw taught.

Hey GC The corruption was set in the 50s when vpw started taking others' works and presenting them as his own. When he rejectd the good seed for the doctrine of devils he was already corrupt. His penchant for lies (snow on the gas pumps, storm in Tulsa and inventing the hook shot) proves who his real father was. I join the growing throng which rejects all that you stand for and the god (lower case g intentional) you serve. To presume the incoherent ramblings of a defrocked (he did get kicked out of his denomination) minister has equal footing as Scripture is blasphemous. You son of vipers get thee behind me Satan!v

personally I hold to my original post that Mike is a gutless coward. Hiding behind the sham of the hidden meanings of pfal to make hime appear stronger and more powerful than us. When he is asked a tough question he responds with threats, accusations and name calling. He besmirches the Holy Word of God by delegating it below the works of a reprobate. Calling somone untrustworthy because they asked a tough question is so childish. You are a child mike in every way. Knowledge puffeth up, but the love of God ediies. h

I don't often say much on this site. But Mike, you are a piece of work. Most of us have abandoned what you revere and we have moved on. I have seen a Christ far different from the one you have and I feel I am on the road to heaven. Vpw was never a doctor in any sense of the word. He did not minister, he manipulated. He did not study, he stole. When you quote PFAL you are quoting the works of dozens of others because the man had no original thoughts. Why did he say in the video of PFAL that Jesus was coming back as Kings of King and Lord of Lords ? as God Almighty! If was God's man, and Jesus isn't God, how could God bless his ministry? How could we trust someone who said one thing, let it go on tape, but deny it in a book? Vpw picked Craig to succeed him, how much wisdom did that take? Vpw never finished a course at all the colleges he said he did. Vpw never went before a board to defend his thesis. That's how you become a doctor. You can't defend it either. But I know I am wasting cyberspace on you. You are enlightened. You are one of the chosen But to anyone else who really wants to know the scripture and who Jesus really is, I encourage them to find a good Bible teacher from an established church Evangelical is good, but so are pentacostals and mainline in some cases. You say you sampled other Christian thought. Well you need more than a sample. Get a full seven-course meal. And explain John 8:58 to me?

WC gone wild directors open vault find hook shotC

I have read your post, your pointless, endless drivel-filled posts. Posts that never go anywhere and if they do, point back to VPW as a god. I too have no first-hand knowlege of sexual indescretions by vpw. I have seen the plagiarism. Heard the bold claims, checked his teachings of the bible and its history and found them wanting. Your glorification and oversimplification of twi is astounding and poor scholarship. You refer only to vpw in all your posts and use him as the only source. I got news for you, he used other people. A good news story has many sided to get the whole picture. You just say regurgitated (at best) crap and out and out lies at worst. How are we supposed to trust you and what you says vpw meant to say? What are your credentials. You posted about people not understanding the fine KJV. People of 21st century aren't supposed to understand it. People of the 17th century didn't either, that's why there were at least seven revisions. And the men who translated it weren't so sure of its veracity either. You said "i forgive me." Well that's very white of you! What did you do wrong to other people? VPW stepped away from true Christianity with his own patchwork theology and came out with a piece of spiritual claptrap. I called you gutless and a coward once. I do not apologize. You have no integrity. You have no honor. Get some intestinal fortitude and get your head out of your backside and see the light! a

I think one key is understanding scripture is getting away from the KJV and trying the newer ones. The New International Version is a great Bible and there a plethora of types out there that appeal to almost any demographic. The New Living Translation is a great version as well and brings the scriptures alive. KJV0-only types are almost cultic in their admiration of the book. There were several versions of KJV from 1611-1753. One book said to covet your neighbor's wife, another said the unrighteous will inherit the earth. And the KJV is based on faulty newer manuscripts, unlike NIV which is based on older, more reliable manuscripts. l

Mike Why do you tease about new information and never do anything? Cough it up boy! Or are you really a gutless coward hiding behind platitudes and big words, all the while not having anything much to say?

Do you ever wonder why Martindale was so focused on seed boys? I am told treasury department agents focus all their attention on real money so they can spot the countefeit right off. Why we were we inundated with knowing the adversary? Could it be that loy boy and his ilk had more friends in the attic that just brain cells?y

Anyone in the Roman Catholic Church The Beatles Denominational leaders KISS Smurfs ET -beacause kids got possessed by the finger he used. Anyone who attacked TWI or Ronald Reaganh