brideofjc

I had a WOW sister who drove a Karma Ghiaa.

WG

Who was that? I wonder if I knew her?

Thanks 2027...what a hoot!!!

Jacob does say that "he saw God face to face..." and there is the possibility he was wresting with the pre-incarnate Christ. There is a belief that angels sent to the earth have to leave earth's realms before the breaking of day...therefore, the angel's command to let him go before the break of day. Was it an angel? I believe it was because the Greek word for this is "angelos" which simply means "messenger" and it sometimes is used of people as well. But the clue is wanting to be released before the break of day. Plus, how could 'just a man' truly put Jacob's hip or thigh out of joint for good. Obviously, Jacob was a strong man, if he could actually wrestle with an angel. However, I believe that there are different size angels in God's Kingdom.

In the NASB text, Jacob uses the Hebrew word PEN-I-EL which means "the face of MY God" but then when he rose up, the text says in Hebrew, PEN-U-EL which means "the face of OUR God." Another interesting thing is that the angel asks for his name and Jacob gives it, but then the angel changes Jacobs name to Israel. When Jacob asks for the angels name, the angel won't give it to him. In the East, it is thought that if a person knows your name it gives them power over you, especially your first or given name. We see this same thing when the Lord Jesus Christ says that no one will know His new name...only the Father in Heaven will know the name that He newly gives to His Son. This indicates that no one ever will have power over the Lord Christ. In turn, the Lord Jesus will give a new name to those who overcome as well.

So what it really an angelic visit? I think so.

Even though we have "protections" in place (supposedly), there are so many governmental infringments on the American's Constitutional rights, it is ridiculous.

Those that are opposed to Christians being involved in government use "separation of church and state", however, this is actually not part of our Constitution. It was a line in a private letter (Jefferson?) not a government document. However, I now believe (after experiencing some of this for myself) if those that want the church to remain out of governmental affairs, then the government needs to stay the heck out of church affairs.

You know what?

THEY DON'T LIKE HAVING THE TABLES TURNED ON THEM!

Tolerance. . . an interesting concept. . . not often displayed toward the Christian(it is still PC to Christian bash). . . . but, on the other hand there are some groups claiming Christianity as their faith who really do invite it. . . .

Here in the doctrinal forum one would think we would be somewhat isolated from this on threads designated for the serious discussion of Christian issues. As long as I have been here this has never been the case. lous

As long as the topic's don't invite it. . . I don't think tolerance need mostly be reserved for the non-Christian. . .

This threads topic was "Oops" . . . . hardly controversial. . . .

_________________________________

We have ammendments in place within our Constitutions which protect us from a theocracy. . . . Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The term "separation of church and state" doesn't appear in the constitution. Neither does "right to privacy". But, the concept and ideas are there. . . . just like the term trinity is not in the bible. . .or rapture. . . but, we see the concept and ideas. We use theology to express them. . .and we have the judiciary to interpret the concepts within the constitution. . . . to rule on the constitutionality of an issue.

In recent history. . . I think the closest we have come to something akin to a theocracy is GWB, whose foreign policy decisions where based in large part on his personal beliefs about God. That his orders came straight from God and that he was on a mission from God.

Your point Sunesis, ". . . . for a theocracy to work, the people would have to believe, without a doubt, that their "ruler" was called of God, and walked with God.. . . . " Is right on IMO.

Isn't that what happened in part with GWB? The far Christian right did believe he was called of God and was doing God's will? What a mess! So many people. . . women and children have died because this one man thought his mission was from God almighty. It appears his faith was often the guiding force in his decision process. . . without the aid of reason or empirical evidence. . . the ends justifying the means and outright lies part of his arsenal.

Is that really what is happening with Obama? I have to wonder. After 8 years of war and the systematic dismantling of our constitution and economy. . . . someone new comes along. He offers hope to a really weary nation. . . (I am surprised the misery index wasn't trotted out more). . . .He is young, he energizes, he offers change. . . . and he is seen as a saving grace for our country. The first African American President in a country whose recent history includes segregation. . . it is a huge historical event. . . we have changed. . . evolved and it is evident in his election. We can fix this mess.

He is viewed as a savior of sorts. . .as was Reagan, FDR, Lincoln and others. Hopefully, the right man at the right time. . . . desperately needed.

I just don't think it is remotely in the same category as GWB and his mission from God.

As far as reaching out to Muslims. . . . wouldn't that be a good thing. This is a population we have persecuted for the last eight years. . . . we have not really been tolerant of Islam as a whole. . . . despite GWB saying we were not at war with a religion. . . it really seems we have been on a crusade.

As far as Obama not yet having a church(I didn't know this). . . . given what happened at his last church. . . the scrutiny. . . the judgments. . . is he really free to worship where he wants without subjecting an entire congregation to public inspection? Seems almost kind on his part.

And what if he is fond of the Muslim faith? It is part of the tradition he grew up with. . . He has the right in this country to worship as he wishes. But, he is not attending mosque, just reaching out. That is no threat to us as a nation. . . .

Is he really using religion as a platform or basis for making decisions? Romans 13:1 says God is control. . . once Obama thinks his secret mission starts coming directly from God like GWB. . . then we need to start worrying. . . .

I get your points. . . I just look at it differently. :)

JANE?....IS TARZAN GONE FOR THE NIGHT?

I believe that the Scriptures are clear that we are to "draw nigh to God and the devil will flee from you." book of James, chapter 2? I don't have my bible with me at the moment. This speaks loudly to me that the devil is not our friend, and he is most certainly not the friend of God. If God does indeed love satan, it is also with the knowledge that He did already pass judgment upon him for his wickedness in rebellion towards the Most High.

One thing that I noticed about that show, is that it contains a bunch of new age doctrines, wraps it up in garments of light to deceive those that perhaps don't have a broad biblical base. I don't know your total Christian educational endeavors, but I would be very careful when you watch that show as far as trying to wrap your brain around some of their doctrinal positions.

God Bless.

I did not think this would be necessary to say in the doctrinal section, but I would greatly appreciate NO flippant remarks. This is why I posted this question here and not in the Open forum.

This question is really bugging me, I know we have some great minds on GS, who are very thoughtful and know God's Word, and it's disappointing to get blessed to see somebody took the time to respond only to find a remark that makes it sound like I'm a dope for reaching for an answer in a section that is supposed to be for doctrinal issues.

Please have some respect. I'm asking this question seriously. Wheather or not somebody else believes in God is their personal thing and not what this question is about.

cman: I thought in Jerimiah, that verse is talking about mans inability to change without God. And I know the lion and the lamb thing, but that doesn't mean to me that satan is included in that. The Word suggests just the opposite. That he is damned.

Oh gee, I don't know. This is frustrating me! :)

I find it interesting that you question the existence of God, yet you quote from the Holy Book ascribed to His authorship. Hmmm?

to think that there is an actual being called Satan

would be much like

thinking there is an actual being called God

love your enemies seems to come into play here

or enmity as it is pointed out in scripture

what would change an enemy or enmity? hate?

a leopard cannot change it's spots?

or is it about something else....

Jeremiah 13:23

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Isaiah 11:6

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Don't give them any other GREAT ideas...George....they caused the problem to begin with and now they'll get paid for it???? OMG!

There have always been troublemakers in school, but when I was growing up, they usually got straightened out pretty quickly. Of course, I spent several years in Catholic schools. But even at the pulic high school I attended, children were respectful. If a teacher had to discipline you (in ANY way), your parents ALSO disciplined you.

Frankly, I think the only recourse teachers have these days (and I haven't heard about anyone trying it, but it makes sense to me) would be to sue the parents of unruly children, saying that the children provide a hostile work environment. Better a pre-emptive strike like that than to have some parent sue because the teacher sent the kid to detention and "lowered his self-esteem." <_<

George

If I am recalling correctly, he also advocates "Open Theism" which can lead people to a smaller, meaner realization of the Supreme Deity.

The following is an excerpt from Wikipedia:

Brian McLaren's written and spoken words have come under scrutiny and subsequent criticism from figures both inside and out of the emerging church movement. Generally these criticisms claim that McLaren's theology provides no basis for doctrine and that without any basis, doctrine is abandoned in favor of "generosity" and "conversation." Conservative Emergents and Evangelicals have protested that McLaren's philosophical posture has led him to entertain and even embrace doctrinal positions that conservatives consider unorthodox. From the conservative wing of the emerging church movement Mark Driscoll has complained about McLaren's calling God a "chick," his advocacy of open theism, his downplaying of substitutionary atonement,[7] and his implicit denial of hell.[8] Evangelicals who have criticized McLaren include John MacArthur,[9] Albert Mohler,[10] Michael Horton,[11] Millard Erickson, Norman Geisler, Ray Comfort,and D.A. Carson.[12] Carson has been particularly vocal in his criticism of McLaren's doctrinal views, saying "as kindly but as forcefully as I can, that to my mind, if words mean anything, both McLaren and [steve] Chalke have largely abandoned the gospel" (D.A. Carson, Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church, (2005), p.186).

WG...I can see that you will not be signing up any too soon into the nearest seminary located conveniently near you!

HMMMMM...does a well placed kick in the azz count for this topic?? Or should I post it in "Got your wallet now, Baby!"

The nakedness that they experienced, I do believe, was the knowledge that they had sinned, that is both of them. Therefore, they were both exposed. They didn't understand and therefore tried to cover up the outside flesh when it was the nakedness of their spirits that needed covering, because they had just lost the "Covering" of the Holy Spirit.

I think the judging that Paul is referring to is really using discernment.

I see "Johnny Jump Up" posted out there under the newspaper article. LOL. Looks like a church I used to go to! Sorry, but I'm in concurrence with the need for expelling demonic forces if need be, but they should be done by the elders of a church. I posted my own comment on the newspaper article. Whenever the world views the church doing what the Lord mandated it to do, it roils up its ugly head because the world wants to live like it wants to live but gets convicted by what the church is doing.

Did you ever see the movie? It was kinda cool. Saw it when I was little.

For me, the song that encapsulates Michael Jackson's stranger side is Ben. If you don't know it,

, bear in mind that the Ben in question is a homicidal rat.

Rest in Peace

You too Farrah

Mstar, I may be mistaken, but it was my understanding that the song was written about a rat that as a little boy, jackson snuck food to at night. I guess he wasn`t allowed pets or anything. Anyway, his Dad caught him, and killed the rat. The song was about him.

A movie came much later that used the song.

Being an animal nut, I like the song :)

Must be an R-Kansas BK thingamajigger. Not Here...at least not yet!

Just curious about the "Profile" sections...what in the world is "REPUTATION" for anyway? Does anyone know?

Well, yes exactly! But, I do remember something along the lines of a teaching that indicated anyone of us could have lived the life He did and saved mankind. To think about that now. . . I have to slap my forehead, and ask myself. . . what was I thinking? Blasphemy comes to mind.

The whole idea of God being Holy is a concept that was nearly nonexistent in TWI. Vp taught and lived like a man who had no clue. Cheap grace. Bought cheaply if some of those teachings are to be believed.

Here is another link to that site http://www.gotquestions.org/substitutionaryatonement.html

. . . by the way. . . Chuck Swindoll, who was quoted and relied upon in the first link I gave. . . is a well known evangelical Pastor, teacher, and author. A graduate of Dallas Theological.

Not only the idea of death being a separation is important to consider, but also. . . what it means to live. What it means that our lives are hid with Christ. The whole concept of eternal separation from God. . . wailing and gnashing of teeth. . . so to speak. What exactly is it we are saved from?? For now. . . all die a physical death. . . . our bodies and our minds are separated.

Was "soul sleep" a correct teaching? . . . .

That is why this topic is nearly impossible to really discuss here and somewhat pointless.

Many still believe in the ideas espoused by VP and other aberrant groups(NOT used as a pejorative!!). . . soul sleep, unitaianism, annihilationism . . .

These are not traditional Christian teachings.

I can see how one group of beliefs would lead to one conclusion. . . another concept a different conclusion. Makes perfect sense.

To me it is just another illustration of how far removed from traditional Christianity we really were. How all those teachings and most basic beliefs about God lead in two different directions.

What I also wonder about VP . . . . is why he was almost anxious to remove the symbol of the cross from our minds. We didn't wear crosses. . . we replaced it with the HS dove. . . . we removed the cross from the chapel at Emporia, and we were always ready to tell someone it was a rather macabre fixation. . . "If He had died in the electric chair. . . " :(

The symbol of the cross evokes reverence and awe in Christians. . . because of what was accomplished. If the bible is to be believed. . . it is the most significant event in human history. . . coreographed by God Himself. .. and all moments were leading to the work done there. . . mankind changed forever. . .

It must be significant what we understand about it. Doesn't that make sense?

But, I do believe these are questions we need to work out an answer for ourselves with sincere examination and humbleness before God. There is no quick easy and obvious fix

IMO. . . It is a foundation issue. . . pfal was a rotten foundational understanding.

Hi Geisha...good to see you posting again...

Blasphemy indeed. It's funny, today, I was talking with the Lord, and told Him, I sure could never have done what He did at Calvary!

    περὶ δὲ τὴν ἐνάτην ὥραν ἀνεβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ λέγων, Ηλι ηλι λεμα σαβαχθανι; τοῦτ' ἔστιν, Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἱνατί με ἐγκατέλιπες;

The above is the Greek Text for Matthew 27:46

Ἠλί,n {ay-lee'}

1) Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani. The Hebrew form, as Elio, Elio, etc., is the Syro-Chaldaic (the common language in use by the Jews in the time of Christ) of the first words of the twenty second Psalm; they mean "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Lama in the Greek text (that I'm looking at right now) is LEMA, so it would appear that the writers used a Greek form of the Hebrew as if transliterating and then wrote it out in proper Greek form. Varry interesting, indeed.

Either way, it looks like the Lord Jesus is quoting Psalm 22 as a reference even on the cross of His fulfillment of the Scriptures.

Its been a very wet Spring here...sometimes I have felt like I have been transplanted into a rain forest :( However, I do have some plants and even though they are now getting over run with weeds...can't get in the garden....they look healthy.

Well, they do rhyme....other than this, I have never heard of anything. Just a wild guess without getting a bee in my bonnet or anything such like :) , It would probably most likely deal with three and the Trinity...then the bee and its honey, which would possibly have been considered the food of the gods.

I started teaching myself NT Greek once.

It annoyed people (WC). Who the hell did I think I was? Learning stuff?

Yeah, I know....sometimes people are really put off by a person who has been educated formally.

Bride,

A question about the cost, if I may: ... Do we have to pay in Greek koines?

((ducking))

:B)

I will take pounds, Euros or any other easily exchanged commodity. However, if the Greek coins are ancient enough and sell well enough on the open market, I might take those indeed. But generally speaking, good old green stuff will do...you know the kind with American Presidents on it?

But seriously, if you would like to learn and know of 9 other people, the Accelerated class will do just fine.

NO TAKERS YET???

ALAS!

right sure you could learn from it I guess.

a universal truth would imply that one not need read the bible, ever. these universal truths should be found elsewhere also? they would be the heart of the matter? a more modern writing that wouldn't need to be "decoded" (interpreted in light of the times etc etc)? wouldn't that simplify things and avoid confusion such as in the topic of this thread?

shouldn't there be writings about today's churches' problems?

the bible is more of a set of historical documents then? one would view the bible in the same way one studies history in general?

Well, I will still read my Bible to be sure. Universal truths insofar as the One True God has written for His followers to follow, i.e. "Wherefore put away lying and speak truth with your neighbor."

There should be modern day writings and there probably are...but they will never be canonized, simply so that the modern day problems do not overshadow the originals of the Apostolic writings. I believe for sure that the Word of God is still being written, especially in your own life (if you are a born again, Holy Spirit filled Christian).

Yes, they would be historical documents, but they were penned by the Holy Spirit, so they rate an AAA+++ in the Christian's life. So they would take more of a prominent place than just regular history.

That'd be an interesting topic if you would. Why read them if they're for people 2000 years ago? or at least, why is the bible a "holy book" that hasn't been added to for the past 1900 years?

Why read them? Hmmm.... Because they do contain UNIVERSAL TRUTHS. But the portions that are for the specific churches should be noted in your study of them. It doesn't mean that you cannot learn from the other church's problems, but to realize that perhaps they do not apply to you. For example, 1 Corinthians 11 and the issue of the veils. Outside of the RC orthodoxy that may perhaps still utilize veils...what church really uses veils today? Just one example. Can we learn from this? Oh yeah. In other words...if your church practices a particular thing...if you wish to belong...you will have to adopt that practice.