brideofjc

uh, oh . . .what are you saying? Who's responsible?

I think both are responsible. If I screw up, why should I be responsible for his behaviors? Should he be responsible for mine?

Exactly. The Bible says repeatedly that the wicked will be destroyed, not endlessly tortured. And there are other very straightforward verses, such as, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23), and "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" (I John 5:12). The Bible is really simple when we don't allow man-made ideas to complicate it.

But some say that this "death" is just separation from the True God, not "death" as we define it located in the flesh realms. The fact that man's spirit died on the day they sinned, simply means that the connection point to God died. It doesn't mean that it ceased to be eternal. When we got born again, it was that connection point that got reestablished via the Holy Spirit.

i don't belong here, i'm not doctrinal

i submit to god and my savior

:)

Me too, Ex! The Lord Jesus is the only one I truly submit to, and if there are any others, the Lord will show them to me.

Garden, thanks...I am not looking for any answers at this point from anybody. It will be God that gets through to him if at all..... I agree, therapy would be beneficial, however that takes money and a willing participant .... you cannot make someone see your value, someone who cared enough about their wife and marriage to make the effort. I am a firm believer that my kiddos need both of us, and that we had just better suck it up and act like reasonable adults until we get them raised. Until then, I will try to remember to see him with God`s eyes, to focus on what is good and positive.

Maybe it is unfair to judge Christian marriages by mine, and a few others where I have seen the husbands using the scriptures to dominate and subjugate....not that this is the case with me since leaving twi.... I can`t stand to see another woman required to submit because she believes God requires this of her no matter how selfish a bozo her *man* is...I don`t ever want to see that for my daughters....isn`t there something wrong when unbelievers treat their wives and daughters better than many of the christians?

Yes, there is. I hope you're blessed this Sunday Easter day, Rascal!

I guess I question the whole biblical concept of women and children...I mean it`s like we are disposable. Our value relies directly on how what we bring to our husband. Old Job was the subject of a bet between God n Satan...he lost his wife and children....he passed the test and got another wife and kids along with the rest of his cattle and riches....

Too bad so sad for the first wife and kids...but hey that was ok Job was blessed...the family was as disposable as the cattle and lands....See what I mean?

I just don`t see God as viewing me personally and my children as an asset that can be replaced. That our value solely relating to the husband that we are married to.

It seems grossly unfair to someone whom has tried to be a Godly person her entire life. Yet all of that means nothing if the man I married 20 plus years ago blows it in some area or another.

I just question how a loving God could be so unfair ...so instead of becoming disolusioned with a God who designed and created me to be inferior, forever to have to submit to anothers will...I will instead challenge my understanding and the validity of particular scriptures.

I hope that is ok without being offensive.

Job didn't lose his wife, she suffered right along with him at the loss of their children and home and all of their wealth. Plus, God doesn't view you as inferior, man in his fallen state began viewing women as inferior because he couldn't own up to the fact that he was right there and could have stopped his wife and he didn't. So to avoid having to deal with it, he lowered Eve almost to animal status, who was only good enough to have sex with and bear his children, etc. etc.

The church unfortunately has propagated false doctrine by separating Eph 5:21-22 and they continue it because quite honestly, too many men like the idea that somehow they are in charge, so they continue to the falsehood.

How so WG? I admire and respect you and your views. Have I offended you? I question, I search, I try to better understand a loving God and sometimes that is at odds with what I am taught biblicaly. Because I have seen scriptures used to bully and manipulate...maybe I am hyper sensitive to allowing myself or my beautiful intelligent daughters to be placed into servitude because of their gender? Is it me? Am I using my experience to unfairly judge all christian marriages?

I don`t know, I have seen good and I have seen bad...the ones that are good never seem to employ the I am the ultimate authority because I am the man.

Is my resentment coloring my perception of a Christian marriage? I guess that I feel I don`t fully understand the whole concept or there wouldn`t be the bitterness and resentment of having to live up to and by anothers expectations.

Again, as I said before,, Rascal, both of the people in a marriage have entered into a covenant, and a covenant is supposed to have well being on both sides. The man is not the master just because he has an extra piece of flesh up front. Sometime if you ever have the time, next time you're in a doctors office or check it out online.... look at a depiction of the female reproductive organs and really look. You will see how close they are to the man's. I kid you not. I was at the doctor's office and there was a poster up on the wall and I thought it was just phenomenal when I looked at it and saw the similarities. Indeed, when the Scriptures say that the woman was to be the mate that was complete for the man, God indeed meant it. We were made completely suitable. And no one say, Duh, please. It was too cool.

In the dominant culture where women had no rights, and were the property of their husband or father, the submitting to one's own husband seems positively liberal and liberating! Kind of like the verses that admonish masters to treat their slaves well. Both have to be looked at in light of the culture 2000 years ago and not in light of U.S. culture of 2009, IMHO. The verses shouldn't be used to justify subservience of women any more than others should be used to justify slavery. While I'm on the subject, why does either partner need to be the "CEO"? There are things that my wife takes the lead in, and I defer to her, because she's better at it; the areas where she defers to me has nothing to do with me being a male, but it's areas where I'm better. We discuss issues where we disagree and try to come to a consensus or agreement; nobody has "the deciding vote", we're a partnership.

I have no Clue... I like what WG said.I am married... we talk things over.... we don't always agree but we usually try to go with who ever is the most affected by the decision... If we really disagree sometimes we wait a month or two and revisit the issue.... usually the person who feels the most strongly about it wins. so to speak.... but we always try to be equals with each other.Sometimes one of us is better at something than the other so that is generally that persons job... but we both try to pitch in when the need is there.I guess what I am trying to say is perhaps submitting should not mean enslavement. As to Marriage going away... I say no.. maybe the institution, the piece of paper, but people are meant to join together in some fashion... the paper doesn't really make it a marriage... even the ceremony doesn't What makes it a marriage is the way the two people work together with each other and enjoy being together. How committed in their hearts they are to each other.

Ummmm....Don't you think that maybe - just maybe - the emphasis is on "YOUR OWN" instead of every husband (or man) out there?  That takes the wind out of the sails of the "women are inferior" doctrine.  hmmmmmm..... And I don't think the emphasis is on "submit to your husband" so much as it is -"Hey! Wake up! It doesn't take a village to be in a  committed relationship. Keep your relationship between you and your significant other."OH NO! That would mean that I'd be (sssssshiver....) submitting to YOU!  No-ooooooooooo!*runs screaming down the street in  mock terror - stops at the corner and falls down laughing*

Eph 5:21-22 are tied irrevocally together by grammar...the one another is the husband and wife.

Besides all of that Dooj....I would make a teriffic mistress, and I even pay a decent wage....

I would suggest being subject to one another in love is directed to the church, which includes everyone, married and single.

As far as marriage, someone has to be the CEO, and at least in my situation Mr. Garden is better equipped to fill that position. This does not mean that he doesn't ask my thoughts, seek me out for discussion, suggestions and feedback. Being the head of the household is leadership, not dictatorship.

I believe in joint leadership, and not staying three paces behind, etc.

In many Christian churches, Bible studies, classes, etc. the woman gets hammered with submission, obedience, keep your mouth shut and the house cleaned and the meals cooked kind of subjection. I've had Prov. 31:10-31 crammed down my face at least once a year since I was 28 years old, and the house still isn't perfectly immaculate. I actually took one class where this lady said that "The husband is the master, and the wife is his servant." :o

That's really spooky. I'd be running for sure in a church like that one....OMG!

Marriage isn't a job description with carefully delineated responsibilities that are completely separate from the other; it's a life. We are to be heirs TOGETHER of the grace of life.

Men, that's God's daughter you are wedded to. How would YOU feel if some man treated your little girl like dirt, worked her like a slave, spoke rudely and disparagingly to her? Do you think God is going to applaud you if you treat HIS little girl like that? I think love and respect go together; Paul accentuates men loving their wives, and wives respecting their husbands, but nowhere does he state that one cancels out the other. I see nowhere that I am to respect my husband, but not to love him; I see nowhere that he is to love me but be very disrespectful. At the least that is NOT how we treat our brothers and sisters in Christ. So, yes, men should respect their wives as well as love them.

Think about what Christ went through for the church; the unbelievably horrific torture and humiliation and death He went through for us; that's the kind of sacrificial love men are to have for their wives.

And as Christ invites us to come to the place He has so lovingly prepared for us, and we gratefully, gracefully and graciously accept, so is the wife to submit herself to her own husband. Not "yes dear of course dear" with gritted teeth, but with a joyful step and light heart. Submitting ourselves one to another in love and in the light of Christ's sacrificial love for us.

Amen.

WG

As far as I know Paul was assigning a new behavior for husbands, at least for that culture.  Perhaps he was saying that the women ought to respect there husbands, becuase this new behavior could be seen as a sign of weakness in that culture, and therefore the women would be ashamed of their husbands?just a thought.

I know that this is sometimes an explosive topic that brings out the worst in some folks....but do present your ideas.

I know what TRADITION has taught...but is this really what Ephesians 5 states?

Tradition has taught that it is only the woman's job to submit to her husband, but the verse right before 5:22

Ephesians 5

21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

But right before 5:22 is 5:21 where all the believers are exhort to

SUBMIT YOURSELVES ONE TO ANOTHER....

Could it be???

What do you all think?

Be Polite!

That's why we are told that we will know the real Christian by the fruit that they produce. However, I realize that sometimes, even the REAL Christian goes through periods of unproductivity and times of trials where they may not appear to be at their best. I guess this why the angels are going to gather out the tares first at the time of judgment and then the REAL Christians will appear as they truly are. Blessed of the Lord.

In that day, if you lost your virginity (for any reason) your chances of marriage were almost null and void, unless your father found a very old widower who didn't mind. However, since it appears she believed these strangers who came to her and understood that very possibly she was going to die right alongside those in the city, sounds to me she was a very practical woman who understood which side her bread was buttered on in more ways than one. It could be also, that she already knew somewhat about the Hebrew God and had heard of His fame bringing His people out of Egypt, the destruction of Pharoh's army et al, and knew this was not a God to be trifled with. Since it would appear (according to these strangers) that their God had set this city for destruction, voila! She made a choice to live...... sounds s-m-a-r-t- to me!

Trying to compare marriage in the 1^st century to marriage in the 21^st century is ludicrous at best.

Christianity changes WS? What the Lord Jesus stated in the first century still holds true today. The Lord put the standard so high so that people wouldn't just dump their spouses for frivolous reasons, like a cuter skirt.

I agree with you also Rascal. Those who only want to lay the blame at other people's feet and not look at their own part in it....oh well. They need the counseling IMO.

Absolutely Dot. I agree totally. We are not responsible for another persons inability to love, or rationalization for bad treatment, or bad behavior, low character and lack of morality, mental illness and refusal to seek healing...alcoholism etc. We can love them, pray for them, do all in our power to help them....but I do not believe for an instant that God requires us to stay with unkind, dangerous, or abusive people. I also believe that divorce is necessary, I think that adultery is cowardly, sneaky and dishonest.

I tell my teens and now adult children to take their time and choose their life`s partner wisely.

Abuse is not love...and therefore....hasn't the vows already been broken? Yes, they have. As I said before, the Lord Jesus placed the bar so high so that people wouldn't just jump in and out of marriage, like the Pharisees and Saduccees were doing.

Well said, Dot.

Tares are just that....they do look just like the real wheat until the harvest comes....then....nothing there.

I'm unfortunately still being crushed by a lot of so-called Christians who are (I believe) jealous of the ministry that the Lord has given to me, want to make a dollar off of it and I won't let them, want to control it (because after all a man makes a better leader ) and I won't let them do that either. Still picking myself up off that floor, feeling as if my faith sometimes has been tested to its very limits of endurance.

It is easy to recognize that open blatant evil, but it is very difficult when the cloak of Christianity is covering the unrepentant heart. And Dot, unfortunately, its not just those that live on a farm in OH that are into that either. They are in the local churches as well, all over the world, right down the street from you and I.

Thanks for the link to the page, its kind of scary to think that so much of us probably can relate to something in that article.

Johnj

The pastors are whipped into

staying married" but those that take scripture and make it into something I do not think it was meant to be - mean with lack of understanding.

If you find yourself married to a person who is nothing like what she presented herself to be, after therapy, after prayer, after much trying to "fix" things, then divorce. Take a break repair your hearts then come back.

Adultery was mentioned in the big 10 and divorce was not, gotta mean something...

To me divorce is more "honest" than adultery. Divorce says "This is not working we made a mistake" most people can forgive a mistake.

Adultery says, I do not care if I am a liar to my wife, church members, and use someone else to meet my need for love... It screams of secrets, lies, and deception... A divorce, no matter how bad it tastes, is more honest and upfront.

I guess I am a little off my own topic - but I think we need to look at this-

When the Pharisees confronted the Lord Jesus about the issue of divorce, the Lord Jesus quite clearly and succintly stated that only in the case of adultery should one split, not because someone misrepresents themselves while dating. Perhaps then a longer courtship and engagement should have occurred before they said "I do." The Lord Jesus wasn't trying to be a hard person, but the point of the message is divorce is not to be taken lightly, like they do in Las Vegas. Get married, enjoy a roll in the hay, and turn right around and get a legal divorce all in the course of a day.

The reason as the Lord Jesus stated, Moses allowed divorce, God didn't. Moses allowed it because of the hardness of the men's hearts in his day toward their wives. They were tiring of their wives, casting them out of their homes without their children, and because of the culture, the men were allowed to take another wife, but according to Mosaic law, the women were not until the man died, (perhaps a little push in the right direction would have helped ) So God told Moses to allow divorce, because witout the divorce in writing she could not get married again, which would then force her to live on the streets, beg for a living or turn to prostitution in order to survive. Divorce was allowed to help the woman get on with her life even though she would still be bereft of her children from that particular marriage. It was so bad during that day that a man was allowed to get rid of his wife if she burned his toast. Sooooooo.......

The Lord Jesus put the heart of the Father into His message by putting the standard a lot higher for the separation of a man and woman.

there is no such thing as good or bad. people make this distinction up and then try to make pet theories up when things don't add up. One could reevaluate why they consider things "good" or "bad", and redefine them, if it so troubles them.

you've brought up "rulers" now. hmm. . . "religious dogma" "political decree" "years of conflict . . ." You believe religion came from rulers first? Or religion came, then rulers learned to use it, as any opportunity?

According to the Word of the Lord, RELATIONSHIP came first and then when A&E decided to go on their own, subsequent religion (they decided to serve themselves) came into play. Thus, because the Lord still wanted a relationship with A&E He eventually established a better religion where they would get their eyes off of their own selves. Besides, God created us to desire to worship something (it is supposed to be our Creator), therefore, He corrected their fault and I believe He is bringing those that desire Him to live eternally with Him. Unfortunately, those that want to remain in a self worship status, will spend an eternity apart from their Creator. :(

Dude! ... Ya gotta *tell* me when you're being facetious about these things!

You had me going there for a bit. Hell's bells, I thought that you signed on to Bride's Crazy Wagon!

Damn, you're good!

Hey there...wanna ride in my brand new wagon????

You wish! ;) ... and now, on to the dissection.

Is self dissection legal in Alabama????

Now let's think about this one for a minute here, shall we? (For if anything, you just gave me new ammo, my friend)

Dear Garth....you should really check first to make sure you are not using blanks.

1) "all killing by god after that is a big fat 'so what?'" ... which further strengthens my argument re: the Adam and Eve point. They do the equivalent of walking on the grass (okay, so Eve talking to a snake does bring up the weirdness factor), and not only are they sentenced to death, but _every single one_ of their descendants (ie., the ENTIRE human race) gets the punishment as well, even if we had absolutely nothing to do with the sin. But now your "big fat 'so what'" comment underscores that further, and not only that, but pretty much shoots thru the foot religious people's own argument about life being 'precious and holy'. _We_ are expected to treat life as precious and holy, yet your god (according to you) has the "big fat 'so what'" attitude when he kills people? And you and Bride have no trouble with that HUGE discrepancy??

Even though we may have never sinned in the same exact way as A&E, their iniquity has come down through the generations. Yah, Garth, God is the Creator and therefore able to judge as He pleases. Just like an earthly judge who passes sentence on the convicted....you must have a problem with this sort of thinking as well....are you really into a mentality of criminality then? Just curious.

2) "not killing people would be delaying the inevitable." ... so let's just slaughter 'em all, and thus quicken the judgment of God? ... Sure you guys weren't working on Dubya's Iraq War staff? <_<

Cheap shots, huh! If they work for you...

3) "'grace and mercy' is allowing anyone to exist for more than a second." ... again, all based upon Adam and Eve's sin in the garden. _They_ eat the fruit (as well as talking to some stupid snake), and _we_ receive the punishment of being at such an enmity with such a 'righteous god' (Yah! Right! <_< ), that to allow us to exist for "more than a second" is such wondrous 'grace and mercy'.

As I said above, their iniquity has come down to us and it is only through the wondrous sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and the shedding of His perfect blood that releases us from these burdens of our ancestry.

Any of you guys ever think this crap through? Just for once?? ..... But n-o-o-o, you've been 'brainwas'--errr, I mean, taught that this is the Holy Wisdom of God to such an extent that you are not to question it, ... at ALL. Hell, you could take Weirwille's garbage and treat it the same way, and if you have been browbeaten and guilt tripped enough, you'd treat his dogma with the same blind, terrified obedience. ..... Ya know, maybe I'm beginning to see why some people think that this kind of 'blind faith' mentality is regarded as 'mind control'.

Fortunately, more and more people these days are turning away from such fundamentalist garbage, or are at least starting to be more bold in standing up to it. More and more people are being skeptics and are looking at this kind of fundamentalism with more scrutiny and with a lot less 'fear of the Lord' based obedience.

There is a reverential awe and fear which is different from "knees-shaking" type. More and more will be going to hell, apparently. Geez, I sure wish I could have met them on the other side. Alas..... Kinda hoped to see you Garth one day, too....alas....

Well said Bolshevik!

Not prepared to argue anymore Garth? Ahh, what a party-pooper!

If one wants to believe what is written without question then there is a flaw in using what God has already given us. To take what someone has written and hang on to it literally with out seeking it's wisdom and understanding rules out any input from the one that can show what is needed.

They marveled at Jesus at an early age because of his QUESTIONS.

I always think of-

Proverbs 1

1The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;

2To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

3To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;

4To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.

5A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

6To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

Yeah Dark Sayings-have we even heard them yet?

know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding

These things must be recognized in order to see them.

A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels

To seek such is not bound in a book, but from the mouths of those living that are usually ignored.

There is no amount of study that will give the answers, only background. And this must be ready for new light.

No man need to teach it to you, but there words will inspire more or other understandings and wisdom. To hear the tongue of the spirit is life, and is neither bound by definitions, or books.

If the surface is only seen then the deep things of God remain hidden.

For the deep things of God are revealed by the Spirit.

The Lord Jesus studied the Torah, for example when He finally stood up to read Isaiah in the synagogue of Nazareth, it says he opened it to just that place. Now that took a lot of reading of that particular scroll, to just o-p-e-n it to that exact spot to read. It doesn't say that he had to search for it and it took him 20-30 minutes to find the verse he was interesting in reading.

The Lord Jesus venerated the WORD OF HIS FATHER, written down in the scrolls. It doesn't preclude the idea that He didn't spend a lot of deep intense prayer (conversations) WITH HIS FATHER.

... including cultures that _predate_ the Bible, ... by centuries. ... s-o-o it begs the question. Where did the flood story originate again??

I believe it began with NOAH, Garth.

Flawed response, _particularly_ considering the oft-made (and loud, I daresay) claim that the aforementioned deity is (supposedly) perfectly moral. ... S-o-o, if _we_ behave in like manner, and it is considered _immoral_ (and that by the same 'holy and moral' standard that comes from said deity) to inflict murder (s-u-r-e, let's cut the crap and call it for what it really is, shall we? wink.gif ) upon someone for doing nothing more than lying, ... and yet this aforementioned perfectly moral deity does the same, ....... then, sorry Charlie, but you don't get to get away with the "but He's the Creator of the Universe" copout as a means of getting around that blatant discrepancy.

I do believe that this is a forum for people's VIEWS, and I have exposited mine. My beliefs are that Yahweh is a perfectly moral God and as such, He has the RIGHT to judge that which HE CREATED. PERIOD. Since you as well as everyone else are the CREATED ONES, you and I don't have really a whole lot of say about it. Do we? Now you may flap your gums about it, but it won't ever really change much about it, will it?

N-o-o-o, I'm indulging in logical comparisons of actions between one deity and another, and exposing the practical cognitive dissonance that many people (ohhhh, ... like you) apply when they see the injustice done by one deity (the one they don't believe in), and totally miss seeing it done by the other deity (the one that they do believe in). ... It's kinda like how it's easier to see "the mite in your brother's eye" but not the "log in your own" principle.

Yeah, that would work if Allah were real. However, it is interesting that this god never shows up until about 600 A.D. and he shows up by a "prophet" who hated the Jews. Now, about these so-called (yours) acts of injustice done by one deity and not the other per se. Israel was commanded to kill the nations that inhabited the land that Yahweh was giving to them. HOWEVER, at no time (that I can think of offhand, I don't have my Bible handy) was Israel ever told by Yahweh, when they were at peace, to rise up and go over to such a such land (not their promised land) and just slaughter simply because those people don't believe in the same God. However, this is not the case for the lesser deity in question (the one not mine),

Ahh, the slogan...."REMEMBER 911"

Even today, they are still busy just slaughtering. Israel defends and fights back, yes......for the incursions on their land or just fed up with missiles coming in....and so they rise up and send them back or invade.

If God, in a righteous, just, loving act, can kill a lier for lying, what then prevents his children followers etc from doing the same? Are they not supposed to imitate their God? Isn't that the type of thought that fuels religious violence?

We are told to imitate our God, yes....but we are not EVER told to BE HIM. There are some things that the created ones cannot usurp, and this is Yahweh's prerogative right to judge.

Chilling! I never really quite "got" this account as to the sin. I have read different takes on it. . . seems there are several schools of thought.

Is it a conscious act? Must be. . . right?

I would say that it most definitely has to be conscious. This was why A&S bought it. Peter tagged them on it, why have you LIED to the HS? This wasn't just a blunder or omission, but a deliberate attempt to hide the price of the land.

So is this unforgivable sin, it has to be a deliberate knowing that it is a work of the Lord, yet spouting out that its really from the devil. This is why the Lord Jesus tagged the Pharisees. These weren't everyday fishermen with only a limited amount of Scriptural knowledge, these were the elite religious people, priests, Levites, and even eventually the high priest. They knew the Scriptures forward and backward and this is also why the Lord Jesus pounded them with (paraphrase), "You think you have salvation in YOUR Scriptures/Law." They knew what the Scriptures said about the coming Messias, and they knew that Jesus was filling the bill on every count. Another place of Scripture...the Pharisees were hearing Him speak and they could see that the people were following HIM and no longer THEM and they wanted to DESTROY HIM. I believe it is called JEALOUSY. So the Lord Jesus told them, they could speak badly about Him, but not the Holy Spirit. NOT EVER! I don't plan on ever doing it. If I WERE to get close, I would hope the Holy Spirit would lead me away from the offence.

I don't think there is cman. There is the account in Matthew 12 about blasphemy against the HS. I am not sure that is even possible today, as it was done when Jesus was on earth. It is interesting that blasphemy against Jesus, will be forgiven, but not against the HS.

Not really too sure about this account. I think it is attributing the works of Jesus done by the power of the HS to the devil. It is pretty strong language anyway.

³⁰"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. ³¹"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. ³²"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come,"

That is the other one I thought of indicating the HS and sins against Him.

I believe this is possible even today Geisha. I think it possible today that Christians could transgress too. It speaks of works, not Lordship.

Hells bells, now that we know about fish or whales, or sharks physiology, the Jonas story doesn`t make much sense either.

I read a book where the archeologist said that many of our bible stories are variations of texts found in sumeria I think, that the judean prisoner/scholars were required to translate ...that they in turn took these stopries back and it became part of their lore.

I am thinking in particular, the tower of babel, and the flood story.

The flood story is in every ancient culture just about. I wonder why?

Whether they lied to Him or not is irrelevant to the point that I and others here are trying to get across. The point that the "HS killed them" in the first place is what we're focusing on. ... Ok, so they lied to him. Naughty, naughty! ... But you don't have the frikkin' death penalty for lying, fer crying out loud. And then for that kind of punishment to be illustrated as some sort of Righteous Judgement of a Holy God takes the cake, ... for an abuse based belief!

I can just imagine your reaction if this was some Islamic story about 2 people lying to Allah, and then being beheaded by Mohammad for it. "Why, how _horrible_!! How could those cruel, pagan worshipping Muslims be that way? ... Christianity is s-o-o much kinder and loving and forgiving." ... yadayadayada <_<

But _your_ God (HS) does it, ... and no problemo.

When you're the Creator and all is yours anywhooo, if you want to pass judgement upon what you have deemed evil, then its rather pedentic isn't it? As far as Allah... uhhhmmm... are you indulging in non sequitur fantasies?

Death is the correct consequence for lieing to the holy spirit??? Does this sound in any way just or even reasonable to you? Really?

And what about the Father god--is this the act of a loving father? Death?

To the Christian who believes in a Holy God...YES! Becauseit answers your question...it was just...even if you choose to noy believe it.

TWI believed this most likely because her true occupation too closely reflected what he was doing to the women in his ministry. I believe it is called avoidance.

Besides which, she alone had the faith to believe that these foreigners' God would keep her safe according to their word. Kudos to her, no wonder she ended up in the ancestral lineage for the Lord Jesus Christ. Plus, women didn't often get mentioned in the Bible so the fact that she ends up being mentioned by name is even more impressive IMO.

Religion--Christianity included--has a long and bloody history of 'death to the unbeliever.'

The thought, idea, permission has to st.art somewhere.

I think this section of scriptiures is just such a starting place. Death for unbelief portrayed as a righteous act. And apparantly many Christians accept it as right and godly.

It wasn't death for their unbelief....but they suffered the consequences for their lies to the Holy Spirit. They had the right to not sell, no one was forcing them or coercing them in any way. This was a free will action on their part. They could have chosen to sell it and then keep the whole amount, which is exactly what Peter told them. So he asks A&S "why have you lied to the HS?" They didn't have to....this is the whole point and IMO the only point.

Have to just edit this now: Also, UNBELIEVERS have a long and bloody history as well. If you're going to give the full paint brush treatment, then make sure you use the wide one to cover all of earth's history.

But no 'true believers' ever run _that_ through their heads now, do they?

<_<

But hey, if GOD does this kind of abuse, then it _has_ to be regarded as Righteous now, doesn't it? Shut yer face, and don't _dare_ speak a word against the HS. ...

... See this is the kind of crap that was but one BIG reason why I dumped this kind of fundy mindset. And the 'god' that goes along with it. And I'll tell ya what, if God doesn't like what I'm posting (which should be regarded _at least_ as 'wicked' as what A&S did), well then, he can take my a** right now. ......

..... ((cough)) ... ughh ..... (((choke))) .... AAAGGGHHHHhhhhh........

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Faked ya out! ... Got ya going there for a minute, ... didn't I?

;)

Again, they weren't speaking AGAINST the HS, they simply LIED TO HIM. Which they didn't have to, because no one was coercing them to give money or sell their land/house. They by their own free will chose to sell it, but then lied.

If they had only just spoken the TRUTH about the sell price and given as they so desired, they wouldn't have died like they did.