brideofjc

Here is a breakdown on the pathology of false teachers/prophets if anyone is interested.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg54-45.htm

The thing that struck me when I started looking at this topic in light of my time with TWI was that false teachers bring in damnable heresies. That is something to truly consider given our shared history.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic of prophets?? The last bolded paragraph deals with the why. . . but money is also the issue of why. For gain.

They are actually enemies of God.

Just a few things from the article.

"Warnings run throughout the Old and New Testaments because God knows His people can be led astray by false teaching if they aren't properly prepared for it. Also false teaching victimizes those who have never embraced the truth because they come under the illusion that they have found it. We are thus reminded of the danger of false teaching.

They teach otherwise. . .

The Greek word translated "teach otherwise" is heteros didaskalia, a heterodox teaching rather than an orthodox teaching."

False teachers are marked by an attitude of pride. The Greek word translated "proud" (tuphoomai--also used in 1 Tim. 3:6) speaks of being engulfed in smoke. Here the perfect passive form is used, which means they're in a settled state of being engulfed in their own smoke.

False teachers are invariably arrogant. . . . . An arrogant person is inflated with his own sense of self-importance. Peter says false teachers are so arrogant, "they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:10). Rather, they speak "out arrogant words of vanity". Jude says they reject authority (v. 8) and speak arrogantly (v. 16).. . . .

"Knowing nothing."

It doesn't matter how many Ph.D.'s or how much training such people have; they still don't know anything (1 Tim. 1:7). But they are inflated over what they think they know. They parade their imagined intelligence, scholarship, superior understanding, deeper insights, and religious acumen, but the truth is they are ignorant.

"Doting about questions and disputes of words."

The Greek text could be translated this way: "Having a sick craving for questions and word battles." They have a disease--a morbid preoccupation with useless questions and word battles. They make a fuss about terminology. The Greek word translated "questions" (z[ma]et[ma]esis, means "idle speculations." It is nothing more than pseudo-intellectual theorizing.

They also get into "disputes of words" (Gk., logomachia, "word battles"). They battle each other over terminology. Their minds know nothing, so they engage themselves in battles over semantics that won't get anywhere.

"Men of corrupt minds."

False teachers have unregenerate minds--minds that have never been transformed. In Romans 8:7 Paul says their "carnal mind is enmity against God." It's filled with earthly wisdom that fights against God (James 3:15; 4:4). In Romans 1:28 Paul says, "God gave them over to a reprobate mind." Their mental faculties don't function in the moral or spiritual realm. They do not react positively to truth. In 1 Corinthians 2:14 Paul calls them natural men who "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God." The pathological source of their disease is a corrupt mind. The deadly virus of ignorant, damning words comes out of an evil mind. They don't understand God and they can't understand truth. Ephesians 4:18 says their understanding is darkened, and is alienated from God. Colossians 1:21 says they are "alienated and enemies in [their] mind by wicked works."

False teachers possess alienated, wicked, darkened, and corrupt minds. They've never been transformed. They have not received the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16). They may have many theological degrees, and may be involved in religious activities, but their minds are corrupt."

Yet humbly speaking, you can have someone who brings a correction into a church, but yet it appears to be heresy.

Dear Bride and Geisha,

I've enjoyed reading your input on this topic and today I've been considering the point that Geisha brought up about satan being in Ananias' heart from the text and it really got me thinking about how this situation might have been like for Peter.

#1 Peter was there when the other person that I'm aware of that it was spoken of that satan entered his heart, Judas Iscariot. And Judas betrayed the Lord to the authorities.

#2 The Lord said to Peter's face, "Get thee behind me satan" when Peter was insisting that the Lord not go through with the crucifixion.

All in all it seems to me that it was clearly available for Peter to understand these things a lot deeper than some who just run off at the mouth and misuse the harder things in the scriptures unto their own destruction. It doesn't seem to me that it makes much difference if the false teachers talk about "real devils" or "satan" in somebodie's heart. But coming from Peter this is the kind of thing that had hit Peter pretty hard before the record of Ananias and Saphira.

I think that Peter was by this time absolutely and completely thankful that the Lord Himself had told him that even though satan desired to sift him like wheat the Lord Himself would intercede on his behalf. And I bet that nobody on earth ended up understanding these things better than Peter himself.

Nothing like living it for yourself, is there?

Hi Bride :)

Yes, I really agree with you that had they not lied to the HS they would have been fine. I also agree that some Christians can be worldly and new to the faith.

God certainly is merciful to us when this is the case, and He does work in us to strip that worldliness from us. If we belong to Him. To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— I guess I see it differently, but not entirely. These chapters are really building up to the persecution of the church while it is expanding. There are two forms of distress illustrated for us. . . persecution from without and trouble from within.

What I see is Barnabas, who later travels with Paul, is he was changed from the inside outward. This is reflected in his act of wholehearted giving. Barnabas knew that the Holy Spirit was alive and real. They had just witnessed pentecost. Barnabas' integrity became well known in the early church. He was the one who won John Mark back to Paul. So we do know that from this very first act, Barnabas was a true believer.

A&S were examples of those who were trying to look the same, but the change was not genuine. Hypocrisy. They concieved this plan and it doesn't say it was out of fear. In fact, Peter said Satan filled their heart.

Think about the scriptures concerning those in the church who are false teachers. They love the praise of men more than the praise of God, external religious approval. There are reasons A & S might do this thing. They might not have even believed in the real presence of the Spirit of the living God. They could have believed in a intellectual way, but didn't understand he knew the thoughts of their mind. They may not have realized that He is a person who knows, feels, and acts on things. They may have counted on a "Grace" where God tolerates everything no matter how bad.

I think the reason it was recorded was so we would have the example of both kinds of people in the church. It is interesting to note that God tolerated and used the pressure from the outside to cause the church to grow, but did not tolerate it from the inside. Two reactions to the church from this. . . more true believers were added to the church and the rest dared not join themselves to the church.

^{Acts 5:32} We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

A&S actually stand for the exact opposite. . . people who have not really been changed in their hearts, but still want a place in the church. It isn't real to them.. . . it is external.

Anyway, that is what I see. :)

I agree with you that there are some people who do nothing but control. Not only do they want to run their ministry but they want to control yours as well. Some people that I know today unfortunately desire the praise of men rather than God. In fact, I think they have mistakenly thought that they were God. Geez! Do I think that A&S were believers? Yes I do. As I said before, they were hanging out with the others and I know corrupt fruit can hang with the good fruit too. I just think they were too worldly. While the text doesn't state their status, if they indeed were giving away their only land/house I think there would have been fear involved with it as well.

It is also interesting that you note the difference between the pressures on the church from both the inside and the outside. Could you imaging how fast some of the churches would clean out of nominal believers if the HS did this to a few? <_<

Deuteronomy 18:

15 "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me [Moses] from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

16 This is what you requested from the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, 'Let us not continue to hear the voice of the Lord our God or see this great fire any longer, so that we will not die! '

17 Then the Lord said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 I will hold accountable whoever does not listen to My words that he speaks in My name.

20 But the prophet who dares to speak in My name a message I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods-that prophet must die.'

21 You may say to yourself, 'How can we recognize a message the Lord has not spoken?' 22 When a prophet speaks in the Lord's name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Two responsibilities here:

A.The people are responsible to listen (and do) the words that the true prophet speaks. They will know this by whether the prophecy comes true (or not). So there is a objective, qualitative, standard.

B.The prophet must speak truly, at risk of his own life - and the scorn of the people.

So anyone who speaks for God must, sooner or later, see some of his prophecies come to pass - actual prophecies, not being "tuned in" to world events and being able to see what's coming in worldly terms. God gave us five senses to use, so that we could gain knowledge that way. Moses himself, for example, sent out spies into the Promised Land - he didn't just rely on "revelation" from God. But a long time before, in Exodus 7, there is the prediction of hornets driving out the occupants of the Promised Land, and the record of that fulfilment in Joshua 24. Weaknesses in an enemy' defences or structural buildings might be observable through the five senses - but the arrival of hornets?

If the "prophet" never sees anything coming to pass, he must wonder about the quality of his prophecies. And know that the people also wonder about the quality of the so-called prophecies. Unless, of course, the prophecy is so vague as to be meaningless (more along the "forthtelling" line than a prediction that the world will end in 1914 or that Christ will return in 2109 or whenever).

(Of course, VPW gave himself an "out" on that by saying that it was true whether or not it came to pass in his lifetime.)

And there are scores of prophets who spoke of the coming of the Messiah, but the child Jesus was not born for centuries or even millennia afterwards.

At least you covered both sides. True it is, sometimes a prophet might only be used one time by the Lord God to give a particular revelation, but it isn't scheduled to be brought into existence until 400 more years. So what's a prophet to do? They might very well be considered laughable and derided because year after year goes by and nothing is happening at all. This alone doesn't decree the falseness of a prophet. Their lifestyles should be exemplary as well. For example, in Elijah's day, was the prophet a junior student under Elijah or running amok on his own?

More to the point, one wonders if "Prophet's" followers ever realize the awful truth.

Of course I believe it's all a shellgame. Finding a "true" prophet is akin to finding a leprechaun, faith healer, Feng Shui consultant, or honest hedge-fund manager. In other words, not likely...

I DID!

Jeff,

The reason I think they didn't really believe is because the account says. . . "A certain man and his wife" it doesn't say he was a believer. He was hanging out with them. . . . I could be wrong but. . . . .

The previous chapter finishes up by telling us how the believers were filled with the Holy Spirit. . . . Acts 4:31 "And when they prayed they were all filled with the Holy Spirit". . . .the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and one soul. . . .

Acts 4 ends by naming Barnabas who sold his land and brought the money to the Apostles feet. . . It gives you the example of a true believer. . .

Acts 5 goes into "A certain man.. . "

The account does tell us what was in their hearts. . . that . . . With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.

Then Peter said, Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

Didn't we just get done reading everyone else was filled with the Holy Spirit. . . not Satan?

Then Peter says. . .

Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.

,

Which clues us into what Ananias was filled with and about. I guess he wanted a church named after him? He wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit. He was a fake.

Most false teachers come from the church. . . where else are you going to find false believers?

People can intellectually assent to Christ. That does not mean they are true believers. Acts 8 says Simon the Sorcerer believed and then turned around and tried to buy the gift of the Holy Spirit.

People can assent with their minds. . . they can even agree with you. . . but, we are to believe with our hearts.

That is a very interesting observation that you have just made. But keep in mind, it also singles out Barnabus and doesn't specifically say that he was a "believer". Since there weren't any chapter divisions in the original uncials, just keep reading right after the report of Barnabus. 5:1 starts with a "conjunction" which ties it to the previous record, so it doesn't start an entirely new thought as if Annanias/Sapphira are unbelievers hanging around with the believers, but just IMO continues and then because the author used "but" it puts it in contrast to those believers who were selling their EXTRAS and laying down the ENTIRE amounts, now contrast A&S's attitude of wanting to "look" like the others and so they sold an ONLY land/house. They must then have had their second doubts about giving the whole amount, which would most likely have left them in poverty, so because they FEARED, they then LIED about the amount they sold their property for and so withheld part of it, but then said they had laid down the entire amount.

This is why Peter said that it was THEIRS and even after they SOLD IT, they could have chosen to keep the entire amount. I personally conclude that even if they had HONESTLY said that their property was worth 100k, but we are blessed to give 25k, they would have been blessed by the HS and not slain by Him.

I have been giving your question a little consideration Waysider. I do not have any good reason to doubt the text as it is written. I tent to agree with Bride's points. There are records of people being killed by God in the scriptures.

And I would add that the risen Lord and Savior holds the keys of Hell and death. (Rev 1:18) I believe that a lot of TWI people that look at His authority over life and death either cannot recieve it because of the milktoast doctrine that we learned in PFAL or they became puffed up leadership who felt that they had the right to wreck lives and cause much misery. I find the first part understandable and the last part offensive.

And as the Lord Jesus is also the High Priest forever and God has given him authority over life and death that it is impossible to separate God and Jesus Christ in how these events played out. Those two are one after all.

And the things that the record does not say about Ananias and Saphira; like who they really were in their hearts; lead me to consider it wise to not run to far wondering about things that are not plainly stated about them.

Milktoast doctrine indeed! Barely any truth, if you ask me. Plus, puffed up leadership who do nothing but cause wreckage and misery in people's lives, is not limited to TWI.

This probably belongs in the Prayer forum, but nevertheless, please pray for the family and church family of the pastor that was just shot to death while he was preaching at the Baptist church in Maryville, Illinois just yesterday.

Most of the congregants thought it was a skit, because the pastor deflected one of the bullets with his Bible and they saw paper confetti blow up into the air, until the pastor took a bullet and then was running down the side aisle before he fell down. They then realized he was wounded.

It was then that the congregation tackled the man when he then pulled a knife out.

Just heard on the radio, his name was Fred Winters.

This probably belongs in the Prayer forum, but nevertheless, please pray for the family and church family of the pastor that was just shot to death while he was preaching at the Baptist church in Maryville, Illinois just yesterday.

Most of the congregants thought it was a skit, because the pastor deflected one of the bullets with his Bible and they saw paper confetti blow up into the air, until the pastor took a bullet and then was running down the side aisle before he fell down. They then realized he was wounded.

It was then that the congregation tackled the man when he then pulled a knife out.

I just heard on the radio that his name was Fred Winters. So please pray for his family and congregation.

Okay, perhaps all sexual misconduct which includes barter, prostitutes, adultery and rape.

What do you think?

I think the pentecostals have it right in this paper -- and yet if it was one time and the person repented -- well it seems like they make it unforgivable... Yet, they say they are forgiven just not placed back in office.

If they repent, from sexual sin should they be back in "office"?

Mankind has their rules and regs, but IMHO it is totally up to the Lord and King Himself. He knows the hearts of men and women who serve Him.

Two more bullae found which further prove the historical accuracy of the Bible

http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.as...mp;ArticleID=21

Two bullae (seal impressions) found during archeological excavations of Nehemiah's wall [the original wall had been built by David, then was torn down during Jeremiah's time, and rebuilt by Nehemiah] are bringing the Book of Jeremiah back to life.

The first bullae surfaced in King David’s palace during the opening season of excavation bears the name Yehuchal [or Jucal in English] ben Shelemyahu [shelemiah].”

The second bullae was found in the First Temple period strata underneath Nehemiah’s Northern Tower, just a few yards away from the first, and reads “Gedalyahu [Gedaliah] ben Pashur.”

Seal impressions found in the locations where the Bible accounts say those men would have been is fascinating, and offers yet further physical evidence of these Biblical books being truthful, as they prove that these men, by name, existed, and at that time they did carry authority.

For the story of David see 1 & 2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles

For the story of Jeremiah see 2 Chronicles 36, Ezra 1:1, the book of Jeremiah chapters 1 thru 52

For the story of Nehemiah see the book of Nehemiah chapters 1 thru 13

Jucal the son of Shelemiah was a minister of the king and is listed in Jeremiah 38.

Gedaliah the son of Pashur was also a minister of the King and is listed in Jeremiah 38.

COOL BEANS!

how would this apply here, bride?

and your reply to my post does not even pertain to what acts 5 says

unless you explain further

a & s martyrs?

No, A&S wouldn't be considered martyrs. The continuity betw both O/NT would be that the Lord God is a Holy God and when one approaches, it needs to be in reverance even in today's grace. I'm sure we're spared many times because of our ignorance.

Has anyone ever considered that this section of Acts may have been added by men for the same reason it was used in TWI?

CONTROL!!

I doubt it very highly. Please remember that the Lord Himself had instructed His disciples not that long before that if they wanted to be great, they would have to be servants. I do not believe they would have so soon forgotten His teaching, besides with the HS guiding and instructing them. If you are submitted to the HS, disobedience doesn't come easy. Really!

Well, there was a back-story that was not entered into the Word.

Rare text:

See, Anaias used to take children from the church and “bless” them in a 4-horse coach. He actually, stole his business from the poor guy in the village who had all the great ideas and did all the research. He then belittled his wife in public, and in private, convinced young girls that they would have a special place in heaven if they would take off their pants and play diddle.

Then, of course, Saphira had a thing going on with a gal named Fayne. Fayne was a noted lesbian who secretly worked as a hit woman for the King. She got Safira involved, blackmailing her into it, or Fayne was going to tell Anaias. Saphira then “off’ed Fayne” using the poison of a viper. Then, stole the deed to the land. She and her husband, Anaias, decided to ditch the land as the feds were on to them. So, they sold it, kept some of the cash, but announced before everyone how they were tithing the whole pile of it.

The original story was deleted, as during the time of King Constantine, lesbian hit-women fell out of favor.

The point is, I bet there is more to the story that we do not know--

ROFLMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ya know....they covered that in Cemetary...I mean Seminary...I do believe it is to be found in the Qumran Collection, sub-basement level, forgotten papyrii section, written by old dudes who couldn't rise to the occasion any more.

Well said Bramble.

We do not have to take whatever the bible says,

or whatever someone else says it says.

As the canon of what is called the bible was put together by men.

Translated by men over the years.

There is one who can cut through the crap.

Even then there are many different views.

That's what some do not see.

It's been drilled into us that there is one meaning.

That's not the truth at all.

A & S is murder, plain and simple on the surface.

If it is indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Then the Holy Spirit murdered A & S.

On the surface.

And this "judgement" thing don't make sense.

That God or the Holy Spirit executed judgment in this section.

Immediately, without Jesus Christ the mediator.

And the blatant contradictions of this record and the rest of the scriptures is plain to see. If looked at.

Who says that the Lord Jesus didn't mediate? But the Lord Jesus said himself that He was subject to the Father. Or this was allowed for the glory of God. Before those that do not adhere to Christian beliefs get any sicker, God doesn't reckon glory as mankind reckons it. Stephen died with the Lord Jesus Christ looking on, same as with the martyrs of today in the Middle Eastern countries, they die willingly for their faith and consider the bullet scars on their bodies to be medals for Jesus.

Hhmmmmm, .... why does an answer like this smell of ..... a 'whitewash'? ... A dodge? ... A kind of 'song-and-dance'? <_<

Whatever killed Ananias and Sapphira (if the story does indeed ring true), if it was simply because they 'told a lie', the concept of 'does the punishment fit the crime' needs to be seriously considered here. And if it _was_ a righteous judgment given by the 'Holy Spirit' that Ananias and Sapphira had to die because they lied, ... well then, ...

..... how many lies have _YOU_ told (of at least their magnitude) that ought to merit the same kind of punishment, .....

..... hhmmmmm?

No Dodge, whitewash or tapdancing, GP2000... (sounds like R2D2 )

What do the Scriptures say about the HS? He doesn't speak what He wants to speak but only speaks what He hears, therefore, the Holy Father uttered His judgment and yeah....POOF... :blink: Same with Uzzah and Nadab and Abihu.

And yeah, you're right...same thing COULD INDEED happen to us as well. It makes one very thankful for the GRACE that happens more than we are aware of I'm sure. As I said before, I believe this set the stage for the continuity between the OT/NT, that indeed it was the SAME GOD.

The cited link is not about watching the news or crime shows. It's about hiding your head in the sand and refusing to deal with your thoughts honestly and openly. There's a fine line between focusing excessively on negatives and facing reality. Only you can say where that line is.

Here's an excerpt from the link:

Do not masturbate.

If you masturbate, you probably entertain sinful fantasies at the same time. Although masturbation is not explicitly forbidden in the Scriptures, the thoughts that usually accompany it are. Do not escape into a fantasy life. Determine that, with God’s help, you will stop.

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart (Matthew 5:28).

Sometimes people have orgasms in their sleep. If that happens to you, don't feel condemned. However, if you have sexually immoral dreams, ask God to replace them with pure dreams.

This is contrary to the way a normal healthy body works.

How do you counsel a normal teenager with such advise?

You simply can't tell them that their normal, healthy "sex dreams" are immoral and wrong. (but don't feel condemned) Nor should you be telling them to repress them in favor of "pure dreams".

And I don't mean to seem as though I've singled this one item out as the focal point.

It's not. It's just exemplifies the type of mind set this article is advocating.

The point I'm making is that, while it's good advise to avoid dwelling on life's negatives, (Medical science is filled with studies of how worry and stress can adversely affect your health) It's not good advise to live in a world of self delusion.

This link seems to be suggesting the adherence of the same kind of self delusion that left us all so vulnerable to blind obedience and control by people who didn't have our best interests at heart when we were in TWI.

But I could be wrong---That's just my opinion.

So what exactly do you think the Lord Jesus was speaking about, WS? The Scriptures are pretty clear to me when I read them. You are to keep your thoughts pure.

So murder is the way?

I don't think so.

Who said that the HS does murder? Not I!

The HS simply passed judgment, which is why great fear fell upon those who either saw or later heard what had happened.

It's gonna be interesting to me when I get to heaven to find out what the Scriptures really said "in their original." I'm betting some of the folks who did the subsequent versions, like TWI, added or subtracted to promote their own agendas.

I just try to stick to what is glaringly obvious; love God, love your neighbor, and don't hurt anybody if you can help it.

WG

Hi WG, not trying to be a sm**t**s or anything....LOL....weird mood right now... but here's the closest to the original that we have:

Acts

5 ἀνὴρ δέ τις Ἁνανίας ὀνόματι σὺν Σαπφίρῃ τῇ γυναικὶ αὐτοῦ ἐπώλησεν κτῆμα 2 καὶ ἐνοσφίσατο ἀπὸ τῆς τιμῆς συνειδυίης καὶ τῆς γυναικός καὶ ἐνέγκας μέρος τι παρὰ τοὺς πόδας τῶν ἀποστόλων ἔθηκεν 3 εἶπεν δὲ ὁ Πέτρος Ἁνανία διὰ τί ἐπλήρωσεν ὁ Σατανᾶς τὴν καρδίαν σου ψεύσασθαί σε τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον καὶ νοσφίσασθαι ἀπὸ τῆς τιμῆς τοῦ χωρίου 4 οὐχὶ μένον σοὶ ἔμενεν καὶ πραθὲν ἐν τῇ σῇ ἐξουσίᾳ ὑπῆρχεν τί ὅτι ἔθου ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου τὸ πρᾶγμα τοῦτο οὐκ ἐψεύσω ἀνθρώποις ἀλλὰ τῷ θεῷ 5 ἀκούων δὲ ὁ Ἁνανίας τοὺς λόγους τούτους πεσὼν ἐξέψυξεν καὶ ἐγένετο φόβος μέγας ἐπὶ πάντας τοὺς ἀκούοντας 6 ἀναστάντες δὲ οἱ νεώτεροι συνέστειλαν αὐτὸν καὶ ἐξενέγκαντες ἔθαψαν 7 ἐγένετο δὲ ὡς ὡρῶν τριῶν διάστημα καὶ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ μὴ εἰδυῖα τὸ γεγονὸς εἰσῆλθεν 8 ἀπεκρίθη δὲ πρὸς αὐτὴν Πέτρος εἰπέ μοι εἰ τοσούτου τὸ χωρίον ἀπέδοσθε ἡ δὲ εἶπεν ναί τοσούτου 9 ὁ δὲ Πέτρος πρὸς αὐτήν τί ὅτι συνεφωνήθη ὑμῖν πειράσαι τὸ πνεῦμα κυρίου ἰδοὺ οἱ πόδες τῶν θαψάντων τὸν ἄνδρα σου ἐπὶ τῇ θύρᾳ καὶ ἐξοίσουσίν σε 10 ἔπεσεν δὲ παραχρῆμα πρὸς τοὺς πόδας αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐξέψυξεν εἰσελθόντες δὲ οἱ νεανίσκοι εὗρον αὐτὴν νεκράν καὶ ἐξενέγκαντες ἔθαψαν πρὸς τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς

11 καὶ ἐγένετο φόβος μέγας ἐφ' ὅλην τὴν ἐκκλησίαν καὶ ἐπὶ πάντας τοὺς ἀκούοντας ταῦτα

Blessings

It never happened. Nonetheless there's something more to this fiction of "Ananias & Sapphirra" that we're not told.

What it was - I won't even begin to speculate. But people generally don't drop dead for seeking tax shelters.

Just as many of you have not turned into "Greasespots" by midnight.ent

I mean, if the "Holy Spirit" here wanted more money, why not pack his briefcase and run off to Wall Street?

The message seems clear here though - "fork over the dough" - in this case, to the figure of Peter.

It is simply because they lied. It also set a precedent simply because also the Jews also sometimes thought that God could not SEE or HEAR what they were doing, thus is set the stage for the continuity between OT and NT.

The thing is...this teaching was well documented and thought out. Scripturally supported. So was submitting to abuse, following stupid orders by leaders, all of this stuff that they forced us to endure was backed up with scripture.

It is why I cannot stand scripture and bible today... you can make a bible verse support any damned thing you please. It is a good thing that God is caring enough to work within the parameters of what we can tolerate.

I feel like the that love of bible is another thing stolen from me.

God Bless you Rascal.

If the proper exegesis of the Scriptures is done, you truly cannot make the Bible say anything you please. But unfortunately, the requirement is an honest spirit before the Lord Christ.

Rascal.

God forgives us. He really does. When we see what really happened and we mourn our decisions. . . that is repentance. Real sorrow. We ask and are forgiven.

As bad as it was. . . for so many of us. . . God can heal our hearts and give us some peace.

As for those who used God's name to coerce these things. . . and it surely was manipulation. . . if they don't repent and change. . . have sorrow and mourn what they did. . . justified by using a wrong interpretation of His scripture to cause evil. . . God will repay them. .. . God is not deaf, dumb, and blind as some would have us believe.

Why. . . just look at Ananias and Sapphira! Their judgement was swift. Sometimes it is. . . . sometimes not.

This was at a time when the early church was being established. They did not truly believe the gospel preached. What do the next few verses say. . .

Great FEAR came over the church. . . but none of the rest dared associate with them. . . . but the people held them in high esteem. . . and all the more believers were added to the number. . . .

Kept out the ones who didn't really believe. Kinda like Jesus saying you better count the cost before hand.

Ananias and Sapphira were trying to promote their own righteousness, it was an outward appearance. . . not a true belief. . . They were gonna be the heros and the great righteous ones. . . look how great we are we have given our all. .. laid everything out. . .sound familar??

There ARE true and false believers. ..That is why. . . by their fruits you will know them. . . are they connected to the vine?. . . what grows in their lives?.

Seems to me, many of these leaders never really understood or believed God or counted the cost for their actions. If they did, they never would have done or said such evil things. Or if they were truly God's people, He would have corrected them. . . . one way or another. We would now see it.

They decide to remain in sin. . . we don't have to . . . a good example of loving darkness rather than light.

It is easy to assume that this couple didn't really believe. However, I think they did believe, they were just too worldly. If they had sold their only land (which I believe it was), sold it for 100K and were blessed to give 25K, they would still be alive, but they lied to the Holy Spirit.

Interesting thread, Jeff.

On the cross Jesus gave special responsibility for the care of his mother to one of his disciples. As the oldest son he (and his wife) would be responsible culturally to care for his mother (that's one of the reasons the first born son gets a "double portion" - to take care of his extended family responsibilities). (Aside: interesting also that he gave care of his mother to one of his disciples - not to the second eldest brother, as one might expect.)

At marriage a husband is supposed to leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife. Obviously that doesn't mean he abandons his parents (since that would not be honoring them) - rather, it means his focus, his first attention, is not to his parents' wishes but to his wife's wishes.

Jesus gives no commandment concerning Mary M at the cross. He does not commit her [and any children] to the care of his disciples. Recall also the record and responsibilities of brothers to marry childless widows - a topic about which Jesus himself is confronted by scribes and Pharisees trying to trick him.

Mary M seems to have spent a lot of time in the company of Jesus, but that doesn't mean she wasn't perhaps married to one of his disciples (perhaps one of the 12, perhaps another disciple). In fact, that might make some sense. As a married woman, she would be accompanying her husband in his pursuit of Jesus, and it would not necessarily be very remarkable. A single Jewish woman probably would be remarkable, in those days. We know very little of the disciples' or apostles' wives; only that Peter had a wife who once had a fever. Other than that - we know nothing of their private lives.

He gave his Mother's care to John, the beloved disciple. Why? I believe because at that time, his natural half brothers didn't believe in his Messianic office. They did later, however. At one point, even the Lord's mother was swayed by her other sons' beliefs when we read in the Gospels that they were outside of one synagogue and the people inside told the Lord that His family was outside. The remark about the family members were that they thought that Jesus was "beside himself", or in other words they thought he was plumb crazy for believing that He was the Messiah.

Jesus was a rebel in the best sense...at least to prevalent cultural taboos. We do not know if Mary M was married or not. Could have been a widow, which is far more likely which would then have allowed her to travel with others. Besides, even at the cross as legend goes, when the Roman guards allowed only the family of Jesus in, Mother M included Mary M as part of the family. Whether this actually happened, who knows.

But absolutely, I do not believe that the Lord Jesus ever slept with her, this would have broken Mosaic laws, and therefore, Jesus could not have been the spotless Lamb of God.

I just watched a show on public television this weekend about Jesus and Mary Magdalene. The promo to the show in the viewing guide promised to explore modern theories about Mary Magdalene.

It was clear to me that much of the debate about Mary Magdalene in modern times doesn't really have anything to do with Mary Magdalene at all, but it has more to do with theologians' views of the role of women in the church. Both sides seemed more than willing to add their own SPECULATION to the scriptures and tended to view the relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalene in the manner that most backed up their own personal views on the role of women in the church. SIGH........

It seems that folks have been willing to add to the scriptures according to their own mind for a long, long time also. I have to put the Gnostic gospels into this category because as I've stated before, I believe that in order for the SCRIPTURAL CALLING OF JESUS CHRIST TO BE TRUE HE COULD NOT HAVE HAD A MATE.

As far as the many paintings of Mary over the centuries that focus on her in varying degrees of nakedness it is very, very evident to me that the painters' own imaginations were at work. They obviously didn't give a fig about the Jewish cultural norms of the first century. It seems 100% probable to me that Mary herself would be absolutely scandalized by the painters' insistence to show so much skin. Even if the painters themselves were not directly influenced by the Gnostic storyline, it seems evident that they were willing to go there all by themselves.

The Lord Jesus will have a Bride, but she is yet future....HE IS ENGAGED HOWEVER! :)

In the gnostic gospel of Mary Magdalene(you can find it online) Mary is referred to as the disicple Jesus loved more than the others--I guess that is where it comes from. And the Davinci code book.

The apostle John was the disciple that Jesus loved more than the others.

Before I reply...I saw the smiley, and understood the (lame attempt at) humor <_< - better start praying for 'dem knees though...you're going to be on 'em for a while longer. :B)

As far as the serious part of you praying for me...I'm going to start another thread in order to keep this one on track.

In order for me to give my opinion on Jesus, I first need to give my opinion on the bible.

I see no reason to believe that it was directly inspired by God, that it is infallible or inerrant. I believe that, at best, it was an honest attempt to put in writing what was known or guessed about this mysterious Jesus guy. At worst it is a series of pamphlets designed to push the writers' points of view. The way that I look at it there are conflicting theologies, as well as internal contradictions. Certain parts of it seem to be written as refutations to theologies that did not "make the cut". There are numerous disagreements among the different manuscripts, some trivial, some major.

That all being said, I personally believe that there was an historical Jesus that the gospels in some fashion refer back to. I also personally believe that he probably bore little resemblence to the Jesus of the bible. I believe that it is possible that the Jesus of the bible is a composite of various roughly contemporary figures. The different gospel writers appear to have very different agendas and views of Jesus. Supposed fullfillments of Jewish prophecies are intermixed with the mythos of the mother goddess and the slain god.

So, in short, I don't think that the real Jesus (or Jesuses) made it through the editing process.

:unsure: Pamphlets??

here's the list......

(2)The Rise and Expansion of the

Christian Church…L Craig Martindale

Keys to Spiritual Light…..Dorothy Owens

(2) Christians Should Be Prosperous……..Victor Paul W.

Christian Etiquette

The Lifestyle of a Believer………VPW

Slain By The Spirit

“Also” by E W Bullinger

Forgers of the Word ……VPW

Outreach Strategies of Jesus Christ…….LCM

Athletes Of The Spirit VHS

Jesus Christ Our Passover……VPW

Just The Way It Was……..Dorothy Owens

The Way International~ Where God’s Word Prevails (coffee table book)

Order My Steps In Thy Word

The Bible Tells Me So

The New, Dynamic Church

The Word’s Way

Receiving the holy spirit today

Power for Abundant Living

God’s Magnified Word

Jesus Christ Is Not God

Are the Dead Alive Now?

What God’s Word Says About Angels

Hmmm....no takers???? But it's still early!!!

I know....Mikey will buy them.

I hope you had a great New Year's day.

And having left and regained "some" sense back of what really happened. I see a "little" clearer with 'eyes open', lol.. And what I have come to realize at least for myself, is that the Bible isn't a mystery after all, nor is it ambiguous. Yet, it can be made that way with everyone "re-defining" terms and coming up with different definitions (because of Greek/Hebrew of course). And ultimately, it can seem like a hard to understand book if you go searching for things that aren't really there, or things it wasn't written for!

....And what their intent in writing these things is so you get a glimpse of the Creator and might want to know Him yourself so you can get His take on things instead of taking their's or anyone else's word for it.

The problem with the way that TWI did this was to not make it openly available to learn Greek and/or Hebrew. I suspect (though not sure) that the Research Center participants didn't really know the Greek or Herew except to look up the respective words in various concordances. Therefore, most of us (I know that I was guilty of it) stood in awe and wonder that "at last, people who know Greek and Hebrew)" Uh-Huh!

Ditto for your last statement.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Comment: Is celibacy "knowing no sin"... Or was fathering a child out of wedlock with Magdalene, knowing no sin, Or maybe it was just gathering and hanging out with twelve dudes constantly talking about "love" that gives him his sinless character?

Who says that He fathered a child with Magdalene? Gnostics was it? Hmmm. You should probably think about your sources.