satori001

Snow White?

Abigail, I think it's time for new logical fallacy thread. Why don't you start your own? But don't draw from the old one. Just look around you and lay it out. Thank you WB. It seems to me that Elizabeth is informed, intelligent, and independent. I'm guessing she is also an attractive woman who is comfortable with her own sexuality. That makes her a major threat to any crone wielding power, and she is gonna pay for it. If the crone is running a cult, it won't be long before you hear accusations of "witchcraft," explicit or implicit. Those with ears, let them hear. As psychotic as the "visions" and "prophecies" may be, the most shameful behavior of all is John's. Truly contemptible.

I have never met Elizabeth. I just read much of her letter to John. (Too long and tiring to read it all.) What an extraordinary and intelligent woman. I read the "prophecies" too. Those were "extraordinary" too, weren't they? However bad TWI got, I can't remember them being so seriously bizarre. Imagine if this were to go on for another 5-10 years. If "doctrinal error becomes practical error," they might be practicing cannibalism or human sacrifice. Another part of their brain seems to have taken over. I've heard it called the "reptilian brain." The strangest part about reading her letter - the ways John betrayed her are so similar to the way he ran the Way Corps. I'd have provided quotes, but the format didn't permit copy/paste. You can read it. I've concluded from experience that John's "heart of service, love of believers..." yada, yada, is a festering, trade-marked, JAL narcissism in disguise, and his narcissism is the manifestation of some kinda deep-rooted self-hatred. The man has issues, and his issues have issues. One problem with your typical religion is the way it provides a natural platform for charismatic personalities to cling to the deity's coat-tails. Religion is a psychological "force-multiplier" for the aspiring cult leader. We may be good at numbers, or clever with words, but we're suckers for personalities. We "feel" good around them, so we do willingly buy into the deception. There are those who will say we don't know the "real" John. (You know who you are.) But come on, if that's true, why hasn't the real John stood up in all of this? I do agree with them up to a point, because I see a phony, but I doubt anybody sees the "real" John. He is struggling with this because he is trying to finesse a complex lie when the simple truth is OBVIOUS. He has too much invested in the lie to let it go. How many times can you be utterly and profoundly wrong when you're addicted to the emotional validation of "followers?" Eventually, nearly all of them (except oldiesman) will get wise. How many of you people are still floating objects in the CES-pool, or astride the "STFI" (so to speak), and can you really BELIEVE these clowns? I mean, how long does it take to weigh the proverbial "10 lbs of @#$# in a 5 lb bag" in the proverbial "balances?" (I don't remember the proverbial proverbs any more.) I take no pleasure in this crap, though some would presume to the contrary. I found an old kinship in Elizabeth's words and experience, and I can easily see how a few sickos are gonna hurt some good-hearted people just looking for a little love, or a little magic, in their lives. I've also read John's letter to Mark and Karen Anne, etc, posted here by one of his little buddies. Forget about prayer and praise, God must truly love a soap opera, if we can judge by His "leadership." What a cast of the most unsympathetic, and pathetic, characters. The Graesers and Resners evoke a level of contempt usually reserved for Wierwille and Martindale - these delusional fruitcakes are grotesquely unqualified to lead anybody anywhere, aren't they? Yet, followed they are. As a post-script, I do wonder if it isn't the implicit weakness in religious "followers," especially those rootless wanderers (like the denominational outcasts who follow(ed) TWI and its derivatives), that just begs to be exploited. I also wonder if that weakness, in turn, doesn't arouse a predatory instinct in the "reptilian" mind of a leader. I wouldn't be surprised. The mature leader rejects and suppresses that aroused instinct, but remember, these are TWI refugees. Damaged goods, most likely. We all have to remember that. Isn't the internet great? And yet, you'd think people would use it more effectively, but they just seem to keep getting sucked into the scams. Again, and again, and again...

"Socrates is a man." LG / George, I'm very, very sorry. Over the past year, I've witnessed an 8-year old boy run the gauntlets of chemotherapy, surgery and physical therapy, and somehow emerge a survivor, of all things. I still wish you the same outcome, unlikely as the doctors think it is. Nevertheless, if I live to see my daughter's 23rd birthday (and I plan to), I will have much to be thankful for. If I can say I raised her well, how much more than thankful? You've given me pause to think over the last few years. I appreciated that, mostly. Do you have much use for Buddhism? I find their observations rational, unsentimental, and generally accessible. "Tricycle" is a well-known publication and this link contains a collection of podcasts which you may find stimulating. I haven't heard them all, but you can listen to a few minutes and skip to the next. http://www.tricycle.com/podcast/archive.html Regards...

Happy birthday, Krys.

"It doesn't matter whether you're selling Jesus or Buddha or civil rights or 'How to Make Money in Real Estate With No Money Down.' That doesn't make you a human being; it makes you a marketing rep. If you want to talk to somebody honestly, as a human being, ask him about his kids. Find out what his dreams are - just to find out, for no other reason. Because as soon as you lay your hands on a conversation to steer it, it's not a conversation anymore; it's a pitch. And you're not a human being; you're a marketing rep."

Different providers use different technologies. Some phones don't use SIM cards at all. Others do, but they are incompatible with other SIM-using phones. Cingular/ATT is GSM. Verizon is CDMA. Sprint is CDMA. T-Mobile is something else, probably GSM. Nextel (now part of Sprint) is something else (iDEN, a version of TDMA, which facilitates their instant walkie-talkie thing). Therefore their phones are often not interchangable - no matter how "hacked." If you want to have your phone unlocked ("hacked"), some companies (Cingular for instance) will do it (provide the code and procedure) for free, as long as you've completed the original term of your agreement. Others won't. Cell phones and their batteries contain extremely toxic material and need to be turned in to a special recycling center (found at some Walmarts, and many company-owned wirelesss retailers) at the end of their useful lives.

amanda has achieved escape velocity and left rocketboom to follow her own star. some of the best cults don't even HAVE a green card. http://www.rocketboom.com/vlog/archives.html

Civilization and Greasespot will survive your one-liner, Seth. But next post, I'd rather hear what you think about Deadwood, as a fellow fan.

The difference, Jonny, is that you were quoting Deadwood dialogue. To quote myself, "We should be able to discuss it, and even refer to it, if not quote it - with discretion, but without resorting to using it, even for effect, for humor, or worst of all, for f'n emphasis." -- I used "f'n" to illustrate a couple of things. First, "f'n" is not profane, and second, it is perfectly clear. The thread's own dialogue can talk about profanity without becoming itself profane. Might seem kind of a pointless distinction on your average union construction site, but probably worthwhile for a public forum such as GS.

They may on occasion be overheard disapproving of Osama bin Laden and his kind, but most of their energy goes into hating George Bush (otherwise known as the "21st hijacker," Hitler, etc.). It's a wonder they don't call him "the great Satan." They're on the same page as the Islamist fanatics in most other respects but one, that annoying reluctance to see the (American) blood they spill on their own hands. For that reason, no matter how brown those liberal noses get, their more pragmatic heroes (Castro, Chavez, Morales, Ortega...) will always find them contemptible. Ironic, but fitting.

If there is any value in this topic, it may be lost if we can't keep the discussion appropriate to this "open" forum. With all due respect to Seth, I'd appreciate it if the moderators would @#$ out the "cussin." We should be able to discuss it, and even refer to it, if not quote it - with discretion, but without resorting to using it, even for effect, for humor, or worst of all, for f'n emphasis. The line itself would be fine, in a Deadwood saloon, or any real saloon, or gathering where people speak like that, more likely carpenters, or certain musicians I know, than dentists for instance. I rarely object to public profanity as a spontaneous expression of passion, anger or grief. But its casual use (in public) is another thing, and not particularly commendable. It just uglies up the place, like garbage on the sidewalk. Why does it still work for Deadwood? Intention, is my guess. The writer intends to create a world, strewn with garbage, and in the midst of which remarkable men and women contend with other more-or-less human predators for survival.

Does Deadwood have a trashy side? Sure. But is it artistically trashy, or just trash? That's for each viewer to judge. It's one of the best "new" shows I've seen in a long time, neither because, nor in spite, of the profanity. The script's language is a joy. Two episodes and I'm not tired of it yet. Anyone who feels obliged to prove "they didn't talk that way back then" may be missing the point entirely. That's okay. A show like Deadwood could never appeal to a wide audience anyway. Either you get it, and possibly like it, or you don't.

Something about the direction reminds me of Northern Exposure, the studied frankness of the characters. From http://www.robinweigert.com/timepress.html

If the profanity is "authentic," it's the only thing about the dialogue that is. The language is pure art. http://thewvsr.com/deadwood.htm

Not only do they make great little companions for the kids AND the dog, they're quite tasty.

There's the language, and there's the language. I probably wouldn't be comfortable watching Deadwood with anyone but a few choice friends, who would share the appreciation for the writing and casting, the story and the general mayhem, and not take offense at the show's prevailing word (which would be the "F" word). The dialogue is poetry and profanity, a ....-load of shanty Shakespeare. I find myself really enjoying it, so far, but I can see why you could tire of it. Good summary Zixar. Puts the one episode I've seen into some historical context.

oldiesman.

Saw it for the first time the other night. I may be compelled to watch all the prior episodes. Who are these people?

Martindale probably threatened Wierwille that he'd leave TWI if he couldn't be the successor. Wierwille knew Martindale was weak, but wrongly believed TWI followers were also weak, needing a gigolo to prance around a stage to keep their wandering eyes on the "prize," a.k.a., "the ministry." Their dependent kind of weakness would blind them to Craig's, the self-gratifying kind, Wierwille hoped, as the weak tend to indulge the strong, and measure them by a more lenient standard. So Wierwille gave in. If Wierwille could have chosen anyone at all, without the distraction of Martindale's (presumed) ultimatum, I think it would have been

I'm gratified by the responses so far. I hope there will be more. -- Someone here has requested by private topic that this question be posted: "Who are you?"

Does the brandy help?

Thank you Chas. Though they were meant for someone else, I couldn't have imagined the impact those simple words just had on me.

(or things I wish I would ask, or things I wish I could ask...) With Father's Day approaching, and many of us at the age where our fathers are no longer with us, or in their declining years, I thought I'd post the topic and see what I hadn't thought of. I define "father" (a.k.a., "dad") as the father-figure in your formative years. This could mean present, OR absent. Absentee dads could be so physically, or emotionally, or in ways I haven't thought of. I'm disinclined to include God under the "father" category because I want the thread to focus on the human father-child relationship. Please resist the temptation to preface the question, or answer the question, or guess what that answer might be. Just ask the question, if you'd like to participate, and let others find the question on their own. Questions may be happy or sad, accusation or accolade, celebration or cerebration, angry, forgiving, inquisitive, specific, vague... as long as they're questions. Kind of like Jeopardy, but as if you were asking in his presence, and in your own voice (as opposed to writing it). It could be the universal question we all relate to, or the "inside" question nobody will get but you, as long as you would really ask it that way, if you could. It's okay to talk about the questions, but do it in a separate post. I'd rather you let others find the significance in your questions, and you in others' questions, rather than each expounding on the significance of their own. Those are the rules. They might change. This is kind of an experiment. Needless to say, try to be non-judgemental with respect to one another's questions. Try not to pontificate. Try not to lecture. Please DON'T answer anyone else's question (unless you happen to be their father). (It crosses my mind that VPW's children - or those of other ministry "leadership" - could post some questions here. They've been here from time to time. If it should happen, unlikely as that might be, or if you have the inkling, don't you DARE jump in to score some cheap points. If you do, you'd better hope the moderators get to you first.) I will have some questions, but in keeping with my own rules, they will be on a separate post. Regards...

"Finger pointing." As if to say Greasespot is about "finger pointing," and that exposing Wierwille makes one as guilty as he was, if not moreso. What a load of horse ..... Truth is the only greater sin in Vaden-land. Much like Way World. All other sins are equivalent, thus irrelevant. Remember how much Wierwille hated "gossip?" Story tellers. Murmerers. Whisperers. Yeah, he knew what they were whispering about. He had a lot of open secrets at HQ, and he knew it would cost him if it all finally got out. That's why he went on the offensive, so followers would be hostile to hearing anything true about his shenanigans. And they were. Saying anything negative about slick Vic was grounds for ostracism, evidence of the adversary. Swoop back in any time, Vaden. You make a good example.