Abigail

Sky, for all the pain and suffering I endured (and some I still do) via TWI, I also did receive good as well. Would there have been an Abigail? Most likely, yes. I had warnings, plenty of them - from my mom, from my brother, from a minster of a church. But I also had a huge need and for a time, TWI filled that need. I paid a high price for it, do doubt, but I am still alive, I am still here. Even the pain - it didn't kill me, it just made me stronger. :) And Oakspear? Are you kidding? Have you talked to him?? I haven't in a while, though there was a time when we talked quite a bit. Ask him how he is! And don't worry about him so much!! Perhaps it is just God's time to find him. :) But I get your heart in this, your concern for people is beautiful. But words that sound harsh often have the opposite effect of that which we are seeking.

The Psalm is beatiful, Dan, thanks. :) It is as I said to Cynic (I think) but then lost sight of. I like to keep it simple. One God, live love. The rest is interesting, but in the grander scheme of things, doesn't necessarily have practicle value to me.

What about those who miss the train? Who for whatever reason don't see it coming? :)

Thanks Bramble, I think you said well what I was thinking but couldn't figure out how to say. I think most groups/theologies have some right and some wrong. Any doctrine taken to an extreme can be dangerous.

Sky, I am curious as to why you have such a beef with these people? Surely not all who follow Calvin think they can just go out and do horrible things?

I went to a Vineyard church for a time that operated that way Words. I was fresh out of TWI and found it strange, but now I think - probably not so strange. :)

A local church of ours just lost a decent amount of money in a civil lawsuit filed by a woman who was "slain in the spirit" and severely injured as a result. Apparently they did the alter call or whatever it is called and she came up. While slain she fell backwards and there was no one there to catch her (supposedly there are usually people up at the alter to catch those who might fall), she hit her head and suffered a permanent brain damage. The church did like TWI and blamed the woman, said she must have faked being slain for surely the spirit would not have allowed her to be injured. That was part of the lawsuit, the public "bashing" she received from the "minister." In a sense, you do have to wonder - if one is slain in the spirit, truly, would God allow them to be injured? Yet who would risk, and ultimately suffer, permanent brain damage just so they could sue someone?

Personally, I like what you quoted about the notion of if even one person missed out, then God would have failed - - something to that effect, for how could a loving father condemn His son to eternal hellfire and punishment? To me, there simply has to be a figure of speech there that I haven't come to understand yet. I can see consequences, yes, to purify, to complete whatever lesson went unlearned. But for eternity? I am but a man, so to speak, so I am sure I cannot fully comprehend God's ways, but I certainly find no comfort in that notion. Peaceful and easily entreated that is not. Same goes for that concept being applied to those "who are unsaved" per traditional teachings. My grandmother was one of the best people I have ever know. Very kind, very friendly and outgoing. I remember when my mom was in the hospital - she was very sick and spent most of the summer in ICU unconscious. My grandmother knew almost every patient and their families by the end of that summer. No way could it make sense to me that she was condemned to eternal hellfire simply because she was raised to believe differently than someone else. That is, in a very real sense, what that would come down to. Being condemned because you were raised in a society that did not "preach Christ." Think about it - - how many places are there, even now, where a Bible is illegal? How many people lived and died before a Bible was readily available? How many people lived and died without ever knowing that a man named Jesus ever lived? Every knee shall bow is still what I hold to. I suppose it could be possible that there are some whose souls are so dark there can be no purification and that their must be some sort of finish for them, but even that I am unsure of. The sages say every man has some redeeming quality, I believe that to be true even if I may not always be able to find that quality within someone.

Isn't it cool that the section on charity follows? As we get better in that area, the rest happens. If we are practicing love then we will, by course, allow God to work in us the thing that is most effectual for a given moment in time. Sure, many of us can teach, many of us can exhort, but some of us really excell at teaching, some of us really excell at exorting. Can we all truly speak in tongues? I honestly don't know. And even if we are capable of it in once sense, there may be other things that hinder our ability. Does that make us somehow less important? less "spiritual" (for lack of a better term)? There are just some things I don't do well. I don't worry about that so much anymore because there are other things I excell at. I really dreaded "manifestations" in fellowships. They always felt so contrived, they lacked charity. I used to pray I wasn't called upon for fear the words wouldn't be there. I used to plan ahead in case I was. I know, from reading the posts of others, I wasn't alone in that. Again, there was that fear. Funny how VPW taught how fear was the "sand in the machinery of life" and how twisted that all became in TWI. We were so often confronted for having fear, yet is was the very teachings of TWI that often instilled those fears. One of my best friends from high school took the class in another state, at my encouragement. She never did "manifest" at the end of the class and was very harshly reproved for it. How sad - no love in that. Yet, the upside was she walked away from TWI and never looked back. She recognized the problem wasn't hers but theirs.

Of course, he has gotten even better looking with age. Here's one of him from last October, with the boys . . .

Actually, Chas had it first - amazing really. And of course I knew who it was, but I didn't want to make it EASY for everyone. :) Though I probably shouldn't have said I met him at a weenie roast, cause that was very misleading. We have been to a roast, but it isn't where we met.

((Belle)) Good to see you out and about again, so to speak. :)

Thanks CMan. I needed to hear that too, different context but still well spoken!

Okay (((Dot)))

Dot my dear, that is precisely what worries me so much. :( God does NOT want you to die. God will not force healing on someone who is unwilling to hear Him. Living love requires loving yourself, it requires living too. Please take care of yourself while you are searching for the healing!

I don't know Cynic, I think you could be making a leap there. If Jesus came to make known God and the people refused to listen, then one could say the same thing, without it making Jesus God. I guess for me it boils down to not having any other God before YHWH and to me, saying Jesus is God is doing that. It keeps it very simple for me and I like it simple. :) In the grander scheme of things though, I like to think you and I are both seeking God and whether you call your God "Trinity", "Jesus", YWHW, or even Allah it makes little difference. In the end we will all come to learn that which God wants us to know. :)

I don't know anymore, but I am looking forward to a discussion on it. :)

Wow Sudo, I think I remember meeting him at one of the roasts, but I can't seem to put a name to the face. ;)

Cynic, Can you define for me the word Lord? I ask, because in my mind Lord does not necessarily equate to God and quite honestly, my confusion re Jesus as God existed long before my TWI days.

I agree with you here very much, Sky. Again, it is one of the reasons I like it down here so much - because we can all exchange our theologies and belief systems without the expectation that everyone else must agree and therefore, we can all learn from each other without pressure to conform to each other. I also think the measuring stick has merit. I think TWI has left me with a very precise one from the sense that I seem to sense "danger" in all organized religion now. Not necessarily the best measuring stick, perhaps, but it is the one I have at the moment. But they do produce something, some of it good, some of it not so good. I am leary of once again getting caught up in the not so good stuff, while searching for the good. But perhaps, that is where what Dan said is so vital. When I can get to the place within myself and when I can find the place outside myself, where I can look at the PEOPLE instead of the organization, where I can find a place with people who don't expect me to conform to the organization - then perhaps I will find a place I am comfortable.

Backing up a bit as I play catch-up here. BTW, I tend to think most people "have it in em", the real question is are they willing to tap into it. Wanted to add, in case I don't get back to this for a bit - Dan, your last post on this thread was very beautiful and moving. That one should be kept and framed. :)

LOL LOL, I guess so. I think it is because you have made comments in chat that lead me to believe you were older than Sushi, who is definitely older than I am. :D Wonderful picture, thanks for posting it!!! And now for you my tall blond Canadian friend. I suspect you probably lean more toward the French than the Finnish, but being a yooper with a Finish step-mother, I do tend to see you somewhat in her image and THAT is glam!!!!

Thanks, Dan, but really there are some who I would agree "may not have it in him." But I've met Cynic in other places around the cafe and if I am remembering and putting things together properly, I know who his wife is as well. So, I really do believe in this case he really does have it in him. :)

It's Friday, 6 a.m. doesn't come quite as early on Saturday. :) Though my brain is too tired for too much deep thought and my sister has convinced me to spend the morning doing a different sort of "work" with her. Cynic, perhaps it would be helpful if you would go through and read more of Sky's posts in this thread. It might help you understand where he is at the moment. I am not suggesting you suddenly change your beliefs and agree with him, but merely that you might consider what he is saying in a somewhat different context. I am certain you have it in you to understand, if you take the time to look for it. There is more at stake here than defending Calvin or any other POV/doctrine. Then, by all means, please continue to add to the thread, as you have much to offer as well.