socks

I think the Genesis record and the "serpent" is the classic religious train wreck where supporting an interpretation of an idea is more important than the idea of the record. Now - Gawd forbid that someone insert their own god warrantied brain into it but it would seem to me the record is an invitation to "selah". To consider what the Writer might be telling me using the most expressive language they can. I am perfectly willing to read it on face value, take it as is, and do that. Far be it from me to argue with God or his earliest scribes, my prayer is simply to get the message. Put it into another highly opinionated and emotionally drive topic like politics. Say I call a politician, okay let's say Trump, I call Trump an ignorant swine. Or Nancy Pelosi - equal opp offender here - Pelosi is an ignorant swine. And now let's go into that circle of swirling dipshit on facebook where these things are debated seriously and endlessly and break it down - "ignorant" means "lacking education or knowledge." "swine means" 1. Any of various omnivorous, even-toed ungulates of the family Suidae, having a stout body with thick skin, a short neck, and a movable snout, especially the domesticated pig. 2. A person regarded as contemptible or disgusting. And now let's put together that group of people who are .... actually going to debate, discuss, dismantle and re ass emble multiple platforms and positions on what these words mean, how they're used historically and how they apply or don't apply to this current usage.....and let them go at it for awhile but stop it midway, say after about 5,478 comments, replies, smilies and laughing icons. Nowhere near done yet but for the sake of this discussion, under 10,000 important and insightful comments towards finally solving this important question of if this is right or not. Or what.... Now - I know that kind of discussion goes on. I see it, I try to steer clear most of the time and although I have relative opinions about the performance of both those people under discussion I'm not going to invest a lot of time or energy in whether they are now, ever were or could be at some time in the future, "ignorant swine" in the sense of the words being literally true to some definition of them being high-school drop out, even-toed pigs. Why? Well, lots of reasons but mostly because I myself know that the word "swine" can be used to describe both pigs AND people I want to describe as contemptible or who for one reason or another I don't like or disagree with. And I already know that a human isn't a pig, even if they have seem to act like it. In fact, my image of their "swine-liness" is probably even an exaggeration of an actual swine, but in usage most everyone - most everyone but not all - kinda gets the point at first hearing and might be more inclined to debate the temerity on display in it's usage. Or something. At this point I'm not even sure if this is an exact comparison, as the hebrew word translated "serpent" or "snake" in Genesis is "nachash/nakhash" and it's root definition seems to mean and include an intuitive skill or intelligence, where something can happen or be accomplished but where the effort or work done to accomplish it isn't immediately visible or obvious....thus, a sense of "magic" or wonder accompanies it. "Shining", "brilliant" are part of it. A snake is an animal whose very movement forward or back seems to be a marvel of engineering and to me the relationship makes sense. So - it was the "serpent". Which came first, the snake or someone going "oooooooh! look a dat thing!"......? Dunno, but I think I get the word and how it could be applied to different things, people, stuff. But if that was Trump or Pelosi we wouldn't be debating if they were actual snakes or swine and only a very few people, like those who believe that Area 51 is really where the alien invaders developed the Ben and Jerry ice cream as part of a long term strategy to enslave the earth, are going to debate that reality. Anyway, I'm not a Hebrew scholar or academic or theologian with an expert's grasp on the religious history involved in the record and it's many translations and interpretations. I do know however that any English version of the Bible that I use and read is a TRANSLATION and an INTERPRETATION of some earlier, more original version, be it written in Koine Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic or any other dialect of any other "ancient" language. One thing I did learn in PFAL and since many times over is that someone some where has to interpret and translate, has to come up with an English language version that I can read, even letting it "speak for itself" when they produce the INTERPRETATION......... I can do some of that work myself, and it has appeared now lo these many years later that a reasonable approach is to sit down with my Bible and whatever other tools I can use and - prayerfully - read it and ask the God recorded in it to guide and help me, as He will. Thus and so - if someone still has to have a snake, it really doesn't matter since I asked a snake myself at one point if it had heard the stories about it's ancestors and Eve and it just looked at me and slithered away, which would prove to many that YES of course it knows them, and it refuses to discuss and waddya-expect-from-a-snake! but to me just meant - hey that's a snake. I also don' think the serpent was really Adam because if it had been it would have .... said that. And it didn't.

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On the overall topic of how the Way dealt with homosexuality, I take it back to doctrine. VPW believed the Bible taught that homosexuality was the result of a devil spirit, of "possession". I don't recall him ever getting into the biology of it all or trying to learn if there was any other reason for it occurring. He recognized that genetics and overall physiology could cause a person to be inclined in any number of different ways, and used the sports type analogies to illustrate that as well as other things like upbringing, etc. So he knew enough about "environment versus heredity" psychology and science to form a position on it from what he understood of the Bible. He didn't like to take things to their ultimate outcomes logically though despite his emphasis on "being logical" because if he had he would have had to answer at the least that the logical outcome of the state of "sin", man's fallen nature as the Bible spoke of it would produce a biology that would pass on traits from generation to generation and that those traits would express themselves in progeny. Of course he knew that and included that in some of his Advanced Class teaching on these "spirit possession" topics, and in so doing had to teach that the only "real" solution to it as a human problem was the spiritual "new birth" to right size and correct the physical degenerative results of sin in human nature.............but to fully embrace that he would have had to recognize that even the Bible itself states that the new birth is not a 100 percent physical correction of our human shortcomings and is rather a "promise" of a "hope" and that the "treasure is in an earthen vessel........a reality seen if only by the fact that everyone ever healed by anyone in the New Testament then still someday died, including Lazarus who apparently died. Twice. Once all of this is extrapolated out to practical applications, the question of human sexuality becomes a much much broader topic. Easy enough to spiel off in a 10 minute teaching that then falls apart under scrutiny, because it's not "The Word", it's someone's version of it. From the years of say, 1969 through 1980, I heard him teach multiple times on the topic in Advanced Class sessions, Corps meetings and in response to events and various kinds of media coverage. After that until he died in 1985 I had less contact with his live teaching so I can't say where he might have taken it but it would be news to me and others who had heard him teach on the topic many times if he explored other aspects of it. He taught that homo's are possessed by a devil spirit, which could be cast out, or repelled by the new birth and a life of living by God's Word, scripture. I would say for all those who became fully embedded and engrossed in that teaching (especially the form of it that Craig fronted) there was little compassion felt for homosexuals. He created an entire society that celebrated ridiculing and debasing homosexuality, justified in his mind by the fact that doing so was simply ridiculing Satan and the devil spirits possessing people. If he was in fact striking out against his own family and close associates it makes it all the more vicious - it wasn't just business, it was personal. Craig wasn't alone in that regard, he and a few others of the early group were fully on board for that, without much thought about it at all. He and a few others gloried in how quickly they could accept and start repeating anything that dripped out of VPW's mouth the night before. It was embarrassing to see all these red blooded young men act that way, until I realized some of them had their eye on being the next Pres' and were willing to trade their manhood to be his "transition plan". For the rest of us it was still all about "people". Craig could live ungodly all day long in his crystal "Word" bubble and convince himself he was still God's Man, while attacking and flailing on homo's, homo sympathizers and anyone who smelled suspiciously homo to him that day. And lots of that Emporia crew had been fed that and backed it. Not everyone though - but if you swallowed VPW and then Craig's limited view understanding of it and fed whatever was bugging you that day with it you didn't have much compassion or care for people, other than to smugly make fun of them.

Twinkster - I know the official version as reported years ago was that Craig suddenly became aware of "homo infiltration" into the Way Corps. It's always sounded like Craig's war on homo's was sparked by something, one or more events, and that it was very likely him finding out about or being told that Donna and Rosalie (or whoever) were having sexual relations. Is that your understanding? I can picture his viciousness being driven by his own misguided sense of betrayal, misguided because his own need to pursue sex outside his marriage clearly trumped the need of anyone else to pursue the same, in or out of marriage, homosexual or otherwise. I have to wonder why he didn't call them out if that was the case. If it was because Donna was his wife and they had children and he wanted to shield them I understand that but as it progressed he took it out on many others, making it particularly fraudulent to hide their activity. A somewhat less than best but acceptable route might have been to simply step down and allow these issues to be worked out, while continuing to act as a Trustee or some leadership capacity. "Pride comes before a fall" and I can see that factoring into this. I also have to wonder why he wouldn't have arranged to dump Rosalie early on. They were all given to back-room politics and he could have done a lot of damage control getting rid of her - which is exactly what she later oversaw with his departure. An early axe to Roz would have allowed him to reset the table. My own personal experience with Craig was not altogether negative. Once he got into Emporia and started turning the operation into a personal-podium and comically bad business model he laid the groundwork for sucking out all the energy of the Way Corps program and there wasn't room for two Vacuums, VPW had adopted that spot pretty well by that time. He went from a likeable "believer" jock to an absolute vanilla wall of boring very quickly, and it seemed at the time I was seeing the "Peter Principle" acting out, a book I owned that I even gave to Vince F later when he took over the Trunk office, not because he was doing it as much as it seemed Emporia and Craig were quickly growing out of their own capacity to succeed. But Craig had a heart, and although he wasn't much of a people person and lacked the warmth of personality to draw others to himself, he knew how to do the right thing, he wasn't stupid, and he did right by others under many circumstances. Of that I know, for certain. He could also take a cold hands off approach to anything he didn't understand or want to get involved in. But on the larger stage of the "Presidency", he seemed a puppet without a master and on that topic I've concluded that when VPW realized Craig and his inner circle werent' going to listen to him anymore, the ship started it's slide sideways and south. Anyway - any thoughts confirming or otherwise that it was Donna and Roz specifically that created the vicious "Homo Storm"?

It's back! I saw the site was butzded for a few days there, and this must have been why. I never like sorting out any kind of double billing, sometimes they want to just apply it to your next billing cycle which basically rewards the other party for their error. Hope this was sorted out fairly for you. .

Exactly. If we go back to the question of what exactly is going on, it's creation, the formation of the universe that mankind is going to live in, as well as man's own creation into it. We learn throughout the ongoing history about it's own past, that mankind isn't alone or even all there is to the whole of God's own universe. The Bible - appears - to be saying most clearly that 1. there's a God Who is at work and is above all and Whose intentions and will prevail in all parts of existence that I can be aware of....and 2. We are part of that God expressing HIS intentions and will and in so doing He has given us an existence where we can now also in turn express His intentions and will throughout our own. In fewer words - it's HIs game, His rules, not mine. Part of that existence is the ability to choose, to exercise a "free will" of our own, within the restrictions and constraints we've been set in. I can choose between many things but I can't create a new choice if it's at odds with or contradicts something already established. So - I can say, choose to "disobey" God on a specific point if it contains more than one option, but I can't create new outcomes if they contradict the ones already given. So - I can say, decide "I'm not going to die", and choose that. But in that case, it's not a choice I've been given and the outcome of thinking I can create a new choice will be - nothing, failure. It won't happen. Death is part of a physical life that is not completely energized by God's eternal life force, "pneuma hagion". This body will die and the mind that inhabits and has grown in it will no longer have a place. I am going to die physically without some altering intervention. I won't pretend to understand all the differences but clearly, this pneuma that the average man or woman has comes with an expiration date. God's pneuma doesn't. Two major differences. It's a good example because death is rather final, from what I've seen. Yet - a choice has been given that will change that outcome and it fully relates to this life and who "I" am - faith in Jesus Christ and basically hitching my star to His wagon. 3 essential elements carry the day - grace, mercy and forgiveness. By simply recognizing that I can not fully fulfill the destiny set forth for me by my Creator without a full reliance on that creator I can come to accept a mediator, Jesus Christ who exemplifies that Creator, as "son" to his "father". Thus "obedience" is reduced to it's essential ingredient - full recognition of God as The Creator and all encompassing reality. The concept of being a "father" fully forms that idea into something we can understand - children don't choose their father, nor control their birth, everything about our own birth and life is the product of someone else - its' provided by a parent. If that isn't full reliance and recognition in the Grand Order of Life, I don't know what is. So - anyway - if the "serpent" is the "nakhash" or shiny, brilliant one as described in Genesis, we can already assume that it ISN'T Adam, because Adam isn't the "shining brilliant" one. I'm kind of befuddled how that person came up with this idea, and the fact that he doesn't really answer your questions. LIke this part Q: Why would God speak to Adam twice, referring to him by two different titles (the serpent/Adam)? A: For several reasons, why did Jesus call the first century apostate Jews “serpents” and tell them that they were of their father the slanderer” (etc) They're not the same things. Genesis is a story about something that happened and in that story a character is introduced - a "serpent" - God doesn't suddenly decide to call Adam a serpent, it doesn't say "And then Adam, that serpent, saw Eve and said...." or anything like that. It doesn't say "Adam was very serpent like in his deceptive ways and when he spoke to the woman he said..." In fact Jesus says those snakey apostages were "of their father the slanderer", he doesn't say they were of their "father, Adam, that serpent who beguiled Eve".....or anything like that. To add - about 20 + year ago (time flies!) I spent some time reading up on the history of Satan, the Devil, Lucifer, the Evil One, from the Bible as well as historical sources. That covered a lot of the idea that the evil in the nature of man has taken many faces and names throughout time. It started with the Egyptian history, and their god "Set" specifically, and it's modern expressions. and then I tried to get some perspective on the entire topic. And I eventually came back to what's in the Bible and decided whether metaphorical or specific or both, "the god of this age" referred to is clearly a force that is at odds with it's Creator. Disobedience and rebellion in it's most fundamental expression. It's worth looking into and of course as we see here, others mileage will vary. The narrative of Genesis presents this "shining brilliant" and influential presence into Eve's path and the entire record devoted to what happened paints a picture of a larger universe than just the two of them. If we lose that we change the record. I don't think for a second that it was a "real" snake, but I get the comparison to that character in the record, based on what it says.

Don't see it. The Judeo/Christian narrative is formed around the idea that God is a Creator, one whose intentions and will are expressed in His creation, of which we are a part. We're not the only part though. Genesis introduces an element into God's creation of the heavens/earth and mankind that is consistent throughout the entire Bible. It's not just us and God, there are other forces, other creation, involved in grander vision of all of God's work. In fact, it would seem to be obvious that the interaction between "Lucifer" and Adam and Eve amounted to yet another beat down for that fallen being and one that put him/it on a path to ultimate destruction in the future. I'm certainly not an expert in Hebrew but this theory seems to offer an explanation of something that's not actually stated in the record. In other words, if taken on face value, the record doesn't offer this interpretation without some straining.

Yeah, see a lot of that, too. "It's easier to tear something down than it is to build something" is a saying that was popular in the Way, used to defend itself against the criticism of others. Yet we've all seen how easily Way mid level managers and their organizational progeny spew harsh criticism, denigration, scathing character assassination and outright eternal damnation on others they even have a "suspicion" of differing with. How much harder would it be to find the good, the truth, the profit, the "Word", in something else? VPW did it at time,s, especially when it served his purposes, like how he held up the Mormons and their practice of tithing as an example. There's a saying that was written into the 1999 movie "Ghost Dog, the Way of the Samurai" that goes: "It is bad when one thing becomes two. One should not look for anything else in the Way of the Samurai. It is the same for anything that is called a Way. If one understands things in this manner, he should be able to hear about all ways and be more and more in accord with his own." Today the classic bobble-head-for-jesus is Marion Gordon Robertson, AKA "Pat Robertson". He judges the entire world by the one thing that he thinks it lacks. In the words of Dawes songwriter Taylor Goldsmith in his song "When My Time Comes" ... "you can judge the whole world on the sparkle that you think it lacks. You can stare into the abyss but it's staring right back...." In his case I think it likes what it sees.

Hi Kathy, thanks for the research paper doc. It's an interesting read and well written, will have to digest it. I do think this is a topic that fits into "Open" better than Doctrinal. I've always felt that it's a topic that isn't served well if restricted to religious inquiry although that's part of the discussion, certainly GS. Religious opinion pretty much mangles the topic into a gnarly mass of denial - anything that doesn't seem to fit into the equation is just ignored, denied or considered an attack on the religious position. Many of the world's social issues end up like a pile of dirty laundry with one clean towel on top - they just focus on the clean towel and ignore the dirty ones and pretend there's a pile of clean towels and the dirty ones will be handled in the sweet-by-and-by. Which goes to the basics of life and determining what life is and how best to proceed through it and into the future. One thing striking about Jesus and what He is recorded to have taught is that He addressed two extreme views of life - eternity, God, judgment, righteousness on the one hand and abundant life, a heavenly Father, forgiveness and grace on the other.....one is everything and everyone, the other is personal and individual. "The Word became flesh" indeed - a God who creates universes cares about His creation's individual parts. Jesus taught around and to the basic idea of a male/female partnership, "marriage", and that relationship is used in the New Testament to illustrate the unity of the much larger body of Christ and it's "members in particular"....again, the larger reality being understood in an individual perspective. He also taught that "in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.".....so reality changes in God's plan as Jesus taught it. Or does it? Hard to say, but we have some pointers. I was born heterosexual, I didn't choose it. I don't choose to stay heterosexual in preferences and I don't think I could, or want to, choose to change that. It's just the way I was born and it appears to the natural way the majority of humans are born - some are born male and they're sexual attraction is towards females, serving procreation. "Be fruitful and multiply". But if I didn't choose, why do I have to say someone else did....? Maybe they did, maybe they do, maybe the biology and physical components produce the conditions that allow for it. That personal awareness makes me think that someone could be born homosexual and then have a natural preference for their own sex. That doesn't serve procreation and if I assumed that all sexual preference was primarily designed to serve procreation it would be a major failure. I don't know that though. Procreation is clearly the intention of our species, it's our future so to speak but breaking it down, that doesn't mean that every single human ever born must and should have more children, be a father or mother. If I say that's the ideal state, is it the only permissible state? What's the purpose of God's creation particularly when there may not be any genders of any kind "in the resurrection", as Jesus taught? These are just thoughts, questions. Jesus taught to forgive, to help, to pray and to have faith towards God, as both their Creator and their Father. Can everyone do that? Can anyone accept His act of grace and be "born again" - and if so what is the effect on their human sexuality? When I see people acting out "gay" lifestyles in seemingly outrageous and shocking ways, that's behavior. What does it represent? Every gay person doesn't wear pink tights and dance around the streets in chains. I have no desire to see or participate. But it's behavior, not sexuality - behavior that one chooses to reflect or manifest their sexuality in a way they....choose. Anyhoo....PEACE!!!

Y'know, on that general topic of what-said-versus-what-real, Penworks put the final stamp on something I'd realized about the earlier years in the Way's growth, the period right before and after 1970... In her book she described her own experiences as an early participant and then Corps member and the very real struggles that she encountered, and in so doing refers to the similar experience of the others around her, many of whom were developing somewhat mythical reputations about what they were doing, they're "believing" and the "results" they got "operating the principles" of the "class".....stories about "classes coming together" and great things happening when they would go out on assignments proliferated when in reality if you were around during those periods what you really heard about was how valuable something was for them - what they'd learned, the great personal healing they'd experienced, how powerful it all was to "see God Working" in their own lives, etc......which may or may not have been fully true and would be perfectly fine as far as that goes but it very clearly got blown up into much larger stories of outreach and growth .....later as these same people rose up through the ranks they continued to be held up as models of success even to the point of using it as a lever to denigrate and step over others they likely considered competition to their own ascendancy and most importantly their elevated reputations. I would say that as the years rolled on it became apparent that most of these earlier "heavies" never exhibited the "signs, miracles and wonders" in what they did nor in how they worked with others - rather they merely got better at workin' the system, the language, the logic of it all. I met and got to know Penworks throughout that period and always found her to be honest, supportive, and very caring in the most human of ways. Her own sense of self awareness and her own struggles allowed her to take the high road so to speak and to NOT take advantage of others in order to get what she wanted or felt she deserved. This was and is an admirable trait but one lacking in many of her peer group at that time, as we saw unfold over the years. She wasn't alone, there were others but there soon came to be a core group of up and coming "leaders" who were grabbing the horns of the corporation and riding it out. Which aren't all that many years - from the period of PFAL 2.0, (their was an earlier homegrown version that was scrapped for being extremely sub standard) the final professionally filmed version that was in the can as of 1967 till VPW's death there's only 17years of time - and that's the time frame when he finally had enough of his ducks in a row that he felt he could promote PFAL on an international level, doing things like going West to reach the "Jesus Movement" of the '60's. Etc etc. My own experience prior to PFAL coming out to Cali was one where I'd seen quite a bit of real change and "the power of God" through faith in Jesus Christ and the teaching of the Bible, in it's simplest forms. PFAL teaching put pieces together for me but not in an altogether new way, in some ways it simply put structure and a way to understand what was actually happening. In other ways it didn't create a whole new horizon or "produce results" where there were none........ So I was used to hearing stories and of great things happening, I was living some of them myself so it was not merely an academic exercise..........so it seemed a little thin hearing about all these great wonderful things from the first and second Way Corps but never - actually - seeing - exactly - what they were talking about, other than a lot of what you'd call "personal growth". And Stuff. Lot's of "oh God taught me" this and that and loads of "I feel so humbled by what I am learning" kind of stuff buuuuuuuut unfortunately it the Way Corps did not become a "program" designed for spiritual awareness, in action. Kinda ironic. The pattern I see looking back is that for many people there was a period of early growth in and around PFAL and if that took form into a more ritualized set of practices through their Way fellowship, the Way Corps or other programmed participation, the risk increased for it to become fosselized and lifeless. Busy, noisy, chaotic, even beautiful and good sometimes but more man made, mechanical effort than "pneumatikos" engerized and moving through faith. It's a fine line and one that some others might not see but to me, it's there and is where I see the broad swathe of humanity and effort that the Way had for those years. It's exactly the environment that produced an LCM, El Presidente, a man focused on methodology and linear thinking who literally could not see the forest for the tree. My point - is NOT that NOTHING was real and it was all BS, but rather that there was a LOT of BS being shoveled ABOUT those early "heavies" some of whom didn't buy into the marketing and others who unfortunately did, for whatever reasons. This is why I'm so ambivalent about trying to "convince anyone" of anything - I believe those "signs, miracles and wonders" DO and DID occur, and they are to be retold and sharing as those involved are guided and God wishes. They're testimonies to His great Presence and Will. It is happening all around us and all the time. Many ask "why not now" or "why is this or that allowed to happen?" and while there's reasons for and causes, in the end I am not the Creator nor Giver of Laws and in many respects - I just don't know. But I'll continue to tell the story I know and love, as long as theres' one to tell. PEACE!

Thanks Mark. The original question - "Did Jesus 'do' 7 of the manifestations" - doesn't have much meaning for me - so I can't really answer it. Why is that important? What would that mean to me or to my understanding of Jesus? Or who I am and the life I live. Spiritual life is too mechanical the way that Dr. VPW taught it. On the one hand he believed that "spirit" and things of the spirit can't be analyzed, can't be put into a test tube and broken down into an understanding produced by human, 5 sense analysis. On the other hand he attempted to do exactly that when he proposed PFAL as a class on "How, with a capital H-O-W", to live the more than abundant life that Jesus promised. One the one hand he believed that Jesus Christ promised a "more than abundant life" in all "categories that was only possible - "available" - when one was born again of God's spirit. On the other hand he said he looked "round about me" in the community in which he lived and saw the "unbeliever" who wasn't born again living a life that was often "more abundant" than the "believers" in church. Etc. etc. etc. One of the great successes of PFAL's content is that it opens the Bible and reads it to the audience. "God's Word" is given preeminence, is made the authority and is the thing which must first be understood in order to understand everything else. One of the great failures of PFAL's content is that it contrasts the "physical" and the "spiritual" in a way that never comes together for the listener to the end that they can ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND H-O-W it all works, as promised. In fact it comes together more as a conflicting set of conditions that never resolve, once assembled and listed out the way it's taught. Sure we're born again, "operating" God's spirit by session 12 - but GreaseSpot Cafe is a validation of an unfortunate but honest fact - many many of those who "took the Class" either faked or fumbled their way through a process that they later perfected through practice. "Excellors sessions" indeed. Does that negate what the Bible teaches, what we can actually read? No. In further fact I would contend that VPW's dualist theology, while based on biblical ideas and concepts, is really a non-biblical man's view of the spiritual universe described through out the Bible. The great "battle of the senses" and the "spiritual warfare" of Ephesians aren't described as a winnable "war", in this time frame before Christ's return to gather His Church together. It may be a fight but it's only a fight between losers. We "win" by choosing Christ, allowing God's sovereignty to reign in our hearts and living as best we can in the time we have. VPW suggested as many many teachers have, that the emphasis in this life is to be placed on the "walk", the process, the sets of decisions and actions we take day after day......and our lives are made up of such things - but the emphasis of Christianity is that Christ bore the weight and responsibility of moving mankind forward and sets our paths towards the future. Thus there's no dualist ideal, no great division of good and evil and a war to see who "wins". God wins. Always, and always has, does and will. "Light and in whom there is no darkness". Once we are "seated in the heavenlies" of God's promises we are to no longer struggle to be better, or essentially see a problem where there is no longer one - rather we are to apply ourselves to "grow in grace" and grow in the abundance of God's gifts upon which our new life is made of. . Period. That's it. The dualist, work-hard-win mindset isn't "the Believer's Lifestyle". The earliest "believers" didn't have the time or the teaching to tweak doctrine the way we try to now. Their experience was real, the healings real in signifying God's greater presence and power, miracles that gave real human testimony to the spiritual. It wasn't like getting a perfect score on a test - it was Real Change, Real Life and Real Love. Whether we or Jesus or my gramma "do" 7 of the 9 or 15 of the 20 or anything of anything is the wrong way to look at it. God's people need to stop being led around by the nose of that loser-ville jock-for-Jesus attitude that's been heaped on them. Start living the life. Start being "what God says you are".

Retemories - a branded term for the small flash cards with scripture verses on them. "Believers" don't memorize, they "retermorize". Cop Out - a version of the older term that meant to "cop to a plea" or 'fess up. Adopted by Wayfers to mean someone who left the Way, dropped membership, was no longer "standing" or "believing" the "accuracy of the Word". Eventually everyone but a small remnant will, in order to pattern closely what happened to Paul by the end of his life. The Best - when good just isn't good enough, everything has to be "the best". A bar frequently not reached, usually because of something you did. Blessed - another word for doing fine, feeling good, things are going your way, but with the added weight of God's eternal approval and judgment. All leadership is blessed and if they're not, it's your fault. Joyful - spiritually happy. Makes regular "5 sense" happy seem like a dirty word, no one's really blessed being happy, they have to have JOY and be full of it. 5 Senses - very limiting way of learning and knowing something, unreliable and bad. Never rely on your senses unless it's a leaders senses in which case they're not really just 5 senses, they're the very fabric of God's Presence. All 9 All The Time - another way of saying you're "believing" and "walking" with all the manifestations in operation, means you're in fellowship and pretty much golden. A goal, unless you're a leader in which case you're next fart is really a Word of Knowledge. There's so many more of course. And there's a common theme to many of them. I agree that it's not unique to "religious" cults, and is more a part of humanity's need to recognize who's a friendly and inside the inner circle of trust, like family and your closes associates. Like jokes only you 'n' me understand (wink wink) and the noobs don't get yet, kind of thing. Definitely can be used as a tool of manipulation too.

Hi Penworks - in Buzzard's archive of doc's there's a letter from October 1978 covering events involving Marty McCrae, John Fanning and Peter Bernegger and they're involvement in some research project(s)....what's your take on all that? I vaguely remember some details but think we were traveling a lot at that point. You can message me too if that works better.

Browsing and reading.... I think it has to do with perspective. What's the fundamental place from which I view this or any "technical" question in the Bible and from which I then get my view, my perspective that informs me? Christianity, faith in Christ, life in "the way, the truth and the life" is a rebirth, a new birth, a new beginning for me. So then, a question - if I didn't know anything more about it than that, could I still live it? If all I knew was that I now follow Jesus Christ, and accept my own human condition as one requiring mercy and forgiveness to succeed, that Jesus Christ has acted on my behalf and bridged a gap I would have been unable to, and that the full life possible is to be "born again of God's spirit", or God's "life".....then what? The most basic place to go from there is "living the life". And the question would be is it "on or off", active or passive, in wait mode for a future or in act mode, living now? I think we could agree it's on, it's active, it's a life to be lived. Everything I read in the New Testament encourages me to be patient and steadfast in living this new life now, while knowing death is not the end, that there is a future beyond that, a "hope" and that I must transition to that future. So again and still - what is this new life, this place from which I now live and work? The question of "gifts or manifestations" and related issues answers itself then - we have a new life, in Christ. We are born again of God's spirit, we are God's children, we are new creation in Christ, we have a fresh new set of answers and ideas to bring to our fellow man - Accept God's gift of forgiveness and mercy through Christ. Believe that God showed us the Way through death in Christ's resurrection, believe that God raised Him from the dead and that now we too can be raised into new life believing in that, and that the new life to come is our future. Believe it, say it. Now - forgive as you've been forgiven. Extend mercy as it's been shown to you. Lift others as you have been lifted. Pray to God and seek Him, pray for others and that they will do the same. Act as Jesus did, do as He did, live the new life without owing anyone anything other than to love them. I encourage people to a living faith, an active lifestyle that embraces all the fundamentals, all the time. "All nine all the time" sounds childish, boorish, to me now, like somethng I'd hear in a football game analysis. The whole attitude takes something eternal and incredible and turns it into a list of things-to-do and "believe for", greek words to be twisted and squeezed to gain some deeper understanding of what is already here, now and living in me. One thing I learned in the Way - men will torture the life out of each other and every word in the Bible while condemning each other to hell, to get to some elevated stated of enlightened understanding and ignore mercy, forgiveness, grace. There's that old saying - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"......in the Way we saw it as no, you can lead that horse to water and if you hose it down, stand it in 10 feet of water, show it pictures of water all day and say "water water water water water" a million times it will eventually just swallow whatever you're giving it to just get you to stop. It doesn't mean it liked it or won't bolt the minute you're not looking. And that isn't belief or faith or trust. How can God have the heart of a man or woman if they're only trying to please some lesser power or get something of lesser value than to please their Creator? The line of people that want to start some new improved version of Christianity that's better than what's come before is pretty long. The line of those who give a shit about people, care for them and are willing to be as passionate about learning to forgive and love as they are about cutting out their lesser competition is much shorter. “The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works.” Psalm 145:8,9.

Maybe the dating's messed up on this thread but it looks like you just responded to a discussion that started about 2 years ago, saying you just listened to these - again? - and it was less than an hour not two hours.....there's been no link to the Youtube vid's you watched, and if I search under Raising the Dead 1 or 2, all sorts of dead things come up. Anyway - if it's been two years, and you did listen to them again, how's it going with this? Anything new to share? Thanks.

Yeah, both of everyone seems back. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

"Correct me if I'm wrong but..." Means - NO way in heaven or hell am I wrong and even if I were you're not up to the task of correcting me in this or any other world, so just listen please."

Wow!! I've been perusing the posts here lately and just saw this and thought hmmm.... the sower online page link came up "nothing found for Sower Current.html" which seemed ironic for a site with the slogan "Building an Enduring Work of Truth" and then I checked back on the start post date and realized this post was started on May 31, 2006......Bush Jr. was president.....and a year before the first iPhone was released. I thought about where I was and what I was doing in 2006. A year later I took a major career step, one that turned out very well. It was a very different time and place but even now when I read that I thought how odd, what's this person talking about? And I think if I'd read that in 2006, and maybe I did, I'd have thought the same thing. I hope things have gone well, frisco person! Looooooooooooong time no see! Live well and prosper!

(inserts LOL's) Used in a sentence together - "With all due respect, it goes without saying that the proposed plan under review, well, it sucks donkey balls."

You can always tell when something "goes without saying" because that's what gets said next. Usually.

Some stuff to catch up on here - I heard VPW play that tune a few times, "Ol Rattler" or whatever it was. Later years, on one occasion, he did it on one of the Saturday "Doos" on the "Asphalt Terrace" outside the Wierwille Home and the Barn. I remember dropping in and thumping out the chords behind him the second time through - C and G7. VPW had told me way back in 1971 when he was out on the West Coast that he played some guitar, just a few chords and had played a little when he was young. I was showing him my Gibson LP, a '67 Gold Top and one of the other members had a Gibby SG he liked too. He was interested in the way you'd expect, like okay, now what. But it's funny, while he'd play that tune with all of it's two chords, he could strum with his thumb and keep the beat. Not exactly a player but he could play that. Shazdancer - the music was weak, I agree, but they had enough talent to do something decent. It seemed to be just all wired together wrong, the arrangements didn't sound coherent to me but there wasn't really any "story" for the music to follow. It was so abstract, yet struggling to communicate a complete vision. As I posted above early - it reminded me of that old 50's horror flick "The Mask". Today it would be one of those "so bad it's funny" movies, if you're doing a year in County. In fact, the only way I'll ever watch AOS again is if it's shown by Mystery Science Theater 3000.

penworks - howdy! I've got a question for you on this topic and I'm kind of spring boarding from some things in your book "Undertow". Did you think or do you think now that Walter Cummins had any real moral or ethical platform from which he dealt with the lack of footnoting and crediting in the books? Since he'd done the time in Germany and been the bedrock of the current work we heard and saw in the Way Corps I have to wonder - in reading through what you wrote in Undertow, and what I've heard from others that were in the Research department, I don't think i've ever heard if there was an actual set of standards & guidelines for how to deal with footnoting and crediting that covered this topic of copyright and ownership. Or was it just ignored? My sense is that it was ignored but perhaps I'm just looking for a clear statement, was it ever really recognized by the teams over the years, to your knowledge? T'anks! Also - I remember you DWBH one day early in the 4th Corps when you came from VPW's study with some photo copies of pages from one of his copies of a Bullinger book - some stuff on Ephesians? Anyway it was a big deal as I recall, like there was real mojo in that paper!