socks

My pleasure, chockfull! Glad to hear that. Donnie Fugit was one of a kind and made an impression on many people, in his day.

If I had a buck for every person I've counseled who got bad advice and counseling from Moynihan I could buy us both a couple of dinners at the Wooden Shoe Inn, DWB. None of us were perfect, every one of us in the earliest years you're referring to had challenges, made mistakes. Every one of us got our butts kicked more than once, and deservedly so, in order to get our attention and get us moving in the right direction when we weren't. We were young and learning. The problem with guys like him is they never got the foundation set right. He and Dottie came into the Corps with previous seniority from NC pending evaluation. After the first few months they and several others were bumped into the 3rd Corps and graduated with a year of "Corps training". They were nice but they were skidding - I'll never forget the BS he gave my wife and I after we discussed his a situation I'd observed, and questioned his handling of it. All I wanted was to see it set right, and I was more than willing to talk about it to help, if I could. Instead he blamed ME for not being "spiritually" minded enough to see how he was right....a tactic that became all too common for him as the years progressed. It seemed minor, we moved on - until it blew up in the people's face later that year, as his "counseling" to them failed. He completely disconnected from any involvement or responsibility. He did the same kind of thing for many years after that. He was also famous for never getting his facts straight and making excuses it didn't matter, later. Another thing I learned early on about most of the self declared heavies from the early Corps was that most of them were not successful at witnessing, signing people up for PFAL and under shepherding them over time which was the basic thing being promoted at that time - sign 'em up, get 'em in.. They crowed about everyone else being able to do it and castigated failures but many of the assignments they got they didn't have the kind of godly revival that was seen in the early years in the West and East Coast fellowships, Kansas, and other places, they TALKED a lot about it, "taught", telling others what they should do but were not successful at doing it when it came to actual outreach. 1000's of people heard the Word of God and the "signs, miracles and wonders" abounded, confirming the preaching of Jesus Christ. Frankly I was so youthfully dumb at the time I just assumed "they" knew something I didn't when it was the reverse. Charlene talks about this in her book - if you read in and remember what it was like, it becomes painfully obvious. Picture Donnie Fugit, who just "did it", versus other guys who were more interested in "teaching" ad infinitum what was already in PFAL, while there were assuming positions in the ministry. Did I love Bob - do I today? Absolutely. But everything I've seen and read they've stated they finally saw was "wrong" was wrong for many years prior. I was not happy to see all those people who turned a cold shoulder to God and His people and stayed on there for so many years. Taking all those years to see what they were doing was wrong, they're in need of very very serious rehab. Give them ample space and time to do that. I remember a guy years ago - he'd been a long standing supporter of the Way for years after many of us had left. His wife had dropped out of active participation, he still had half a leg in and it was either on GS or WayDale where he finally posted a copy of a letter he had just sent to Rosalie. It had the tone of - "you know me, I'm a Corps grad, long time supporter and you know how I love the ministry and support it financially and now here I am, I have some recommendations that I think would help you be a better ministry". He offered to come there, meet with her and discuss these things. He expected a positive response - after all, it was HIM, right? They would listen to him, right? He got a turn down and was ignored beyond that, as he reported it - and he was SHOCKED! Why? Because he had the feeling many others had had before him - hey, it's ME, I'm with you on this, I just want to help....! When I saw how this most recent group had bailed out, domino style, what they wrote about it reminded me of the same thing, adding of course that they'd been poking needles in anything that acted legitimate for years themselves. The only good news is they disconnected, for whatever reasons. Time will tell where that leads them.

They disbanded, if I got it correctly. You have to wonder how long it would take for them to realize there's no "revival" or "restoration" of an organization possible, nothing in the Bible talks about that. People, yes. The Body of Christ, the Church, sure. Israel, God's people, yes. God didn't issue a 200 year warranty on the Way Nash, Inc. There's no guarantee "it" will survive. It doesn't have to. It hasn't, and it appears it won't.

Hello happy people. Everyone taking their Flintstone vitamins? Stayin' frosty, my friends? Keep at it, the world needs you. My icon is gone forever I see, lost in the ether of the server moves. Till I find it, I'm using the one at left, and if you know what it means please - remember the oath of silence. I will speak of this no more. The "WAP" class - I didn't "take" it or attend it or perhaps more accurately did not endure it. Some thoughts - They couldn't come up with a better name for the replacement to PFAL than that? The acronym WAP is so useless. I know, that's not the biggest issue at stake but to put that burden on the beleaguered shoulders of an already tired and worn out membership was kinda mean. It does fit the Martindale personae though. Did a man ever exist with less charisma? I liked Craig well enough when I knew him but he always seemed like a talking mannequin. I'm being kind here. Anyway... Bliss, that brochure cover looks like it's from the 70's, was some time travel involved in it being made? I don't have any innie friends so I am missing this kind of stuff. Good reason to keep it that way. It's incredibly strange for the Way to continue to promote a filmed product taught by a person they had to fire and disavow any connection to, even for the Way. Isn't he pretty much personae-non-grata at the Way for all practical purposes? I'm sure there's some reasoning for keeping it going but it can't over come the simple reality that to even play the product requires a disclaimer. I'd love to hear how they handle that. Lemme guess - "all your questions will be answered in the Class. After. So write them down now. For later. Sign here". I would guess it fits into their overall public relations strategy (sorry, had to clear my throat writing that, I'm back) buuuut if you look at their website there's apparently no real people with names involved, other than a few lines that refer to a "Board of Directors", which is I guess all they think the public needs to know. Even the quotes of happy customers have no name credited. ****** WAP 1, 2, 3 or whatever the titles - I was reminded that Martindale isn't the teacher of the WAP course that people would attend today, it's gone through a few revisions and is currently taught by 3 Representatives, See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Smell No Evil, I guess. So it's no longer Mr. Personality doing the teaching. I guess there's a ray of light in those clouds after all, hey? The Way is a perfect example of silo'd thinking. They're locked into a progression they feel they have to uphold so they don't look outside "the box" they're in. If they were as concerned about really reaching people and helping them as they are with avoidance and covering their asses they'd see there are some very very very obvious routes they could take to "re energize" their efforts that would still give them a layer of legal protection for past events, which is what it appears they're most concerned with. ******* Now knowing how frequently The Way loses people and members shift their status with them that may serve some purposes but it makes it look like a hack job, a phony business front, which is very common in the digital world today and is marketing -101 for the masses of online media miscreants gaming your clicks. Even the Catholic Church has a big ass photo of the current Pope mugging for the camera on the Holy See site. Sight. Web site. One thing I do know - classes taught to people in living rooms huddled on brown metal chairs every night suck. It's a painful way to reach people but many of us endured. There are better ways to pass on the teachings of the Bible and the fundamentals of the Christian faith. It works but I feel so sad whenever I see photos of people in chairs in rooms somewhere and a guy at a table up front huddled down, "teaching". They talk, you shut up and listen, questions later. It's not like they're trying to teach Calculus or Advanced Trigonometry or C# or Java. It can be done around a camp fire, over the phone, in a living room setting or in a coffee shop. It doesn't have to be crammed into 2 or 3 weeks, it can be done over days, weeks, months very effectively, as Christianity is a new life and a new lifestyle. Life doesn't jam into small spaces well. Many many years ago I spent hours on the floor of my living room with friends, bibles and books strewn across the floor reading and talking and studying. We chattered like kids. Well, we were, pretty much so we did. We drank coffee like it was a sacrament. We had a great time. There was laughter, at things no one had to be cued for! No one had to tell us to be on time but sometimes I had to tell them to go home when it got late. All that metal brown chair stuff is just cruel, and needs to be kept to a minimum. I guess it's no surprise they still hustle the old stuff though, it takes little effort and probably feels comfortable to them. "ROI". I wonder when they go to sleep at night there at the Way Nash if they hear echoes across the grounds, of years past and wonder at all, about anything....probably not. Stay swell, my friends! Peace! P.S. AOS? No. Absolutely not. Uh uh. Nada. Zip. Bad cha cha. Absolute travesty, took several years for everyone involved to evoke their "plausible deniability" clause. So no. Stop it. No. P.S.S. AOS? No. Does anyone really think they got ANYthing out of it's depiction of the devil spirit realm? Anyone wanted to be just like Craig? It has about the same emotional and intellectual impact as a Celebrex commercial and the spiritual value of an Our Lady of Fatima Merry Christmas Snow Globe............ Accept no substitutes for "no". It was a washed out waste of time that didn't survive, for good reason. No - the best comparison is that it had the same impact of Craig Martindale onstage that year at the ROA, illustrating the word "kratos", where he had his "trainer", Dupe, holding a big piece of wood that he then was supposed to karate chop in half with a single slice of his all powerful hand. Except he didn't, he bruised his hand and beat on that poor board two or three times until finally even Dupe looked embarrassed. it wasn't exactly Karate Kid, put it that way. (anyone else remember that?)

Thanks for the information, Rocky. Interesting reading and listening. I haven't been on GS for quite awhile. Peace, homies! I was surprised my dancing Calvin dude is gone. I must have missed an upgrade. Not to worry, Calvin is always *here*. Got a heads up to this topic sent to me by a friend-o. This has been a developing story for several months, first heard about some of this movement a year or so ago. But if they don't land in front of my face I don't hear about this kind of stuff. DWBH! Yes, indeed. I see Ed and Jackie Horney there. Knew them back in Miami, they were both coming to our fellowship way back when, when they were dating. I love them, although I haven't really seen them for many years and have only friended Ed on farcebake recently. I'm glad they've separated themselves from the Way, any degree of separation will benefit them. They, as all of us, deserve a lot better than what's being funneled out of The Way Nash these days. But true - all of these people were active in the past 30 - 40, 50 years (dang, we're getting old aren't we???). I find it amazing they can suddenly be so critical the last few months, or years, of policies and actions that have been so for decades and that they themselves embraced and participated in. Y'know? Watzupwiddat? That business about the Way employee who was scheduled to teach a SNS and was pulled the last minute.....oh, the horror, it wasn't even announced, a new teacher took the podium, no explanation and worst of all, everyone from his domain area that had dialed in didn't know what was going on! Oh, the confusion they must have felt! As if that's a new scenario in the Way......? That kind of thing has happened and most assuredly continues to happen ALL THE TIME. the Way's byline should be "No, We Don't Answer Questions".....they never tell anyone anything about what they're doing and they're constant press-release communications amount to "You're ALWAYS welcome at the Way!", which is an english translation of a greek phrase that originally meant "Fu ck You". So, agreed, they're apparently nuts, damaged goods, dented cans, smiling icons of a lost race of people once thought to dwell in central Ohio. Museum artifacts. We be pretty far from any concerns as to what they're "revive and restore" business will be about but I'm sure it will be taking donations soon enough. Take care, my friends! Jesus is the way, the truth and the life! He was dead and lives again and God forgives and saves to the uttermost any and all who come to Him through Christ. Reckon yourself dead to sin and alive in Christ and enjoy that "new life" smell all the time!! You deserve it! Peace!! Well, that's about it. This is my bi-centennial post. And speaking of donations, I know you're probably wondering how to show your gratitude for this enlightening presentation. I get it and rather than complicate things, I've set up a number of ways for you to give back, and all for your convenience. 1. Use the "socks paypal" account to contribute to this important work. It's easy - go to paypal, find the "MoneyIsLikeLoveButCrisper" account and choose an amount. Think big. God doesn't like little thinkers. 2. Kickstart donations - yep, you can fund my next Big Idea. And I've got some great ones! Get involved! It's not going to fund itself! 3. Send those love dollars directly to me, socks. Use my email account: TakeMyMoneyPleaseSocks@ReviveAndRestoreMySockDrawer.com Peace out!!

Excellent insight Twinky. Innerstin' reading and thought. I think Jesus made it abundantly clear what He expects His followers to do. I don't think the current religious systems can be fixed. I say that with the caveat that effort towards doing that could certainly improve them but on a large scale effort it's just too much baggage to go through in my opinion. The only purpose i see for an "organization" is to facilitate the members of the "body of Christ" to work with each other and towards their collective common goals. Something like the Way Nash-anon never got it, we never took it to the next level of growth and VPW never promoted a true Acts-like functionality in the Way. Good bad or indifferent, the Way just didn't do that, I mean it as less a criticism and more a statement of fact. Running a business to hold classes and seminars isn't the same as caring for the weak and needy in the church and making sure everyone is being taken care of. Even the example in Acts of the disciples trying to split up the work assumes that there's a desire to do some useful work to help others. The image I get of the early guys and gals is that they were doing exactly that, doing whatever needed to be done for the growing following. They were, after all the followers of Christ who had known Him, lived with Him, knew Him face to face. If anyone was going to carry the message of service-first-know-us-by-our-love it would have had to be them. Being human I supppose they did the best they could as long as they could. Today, for me, there's been too much water under the bridge. It's not just the Roman Catholic church although they're about as bloated as you can get. The church/pastor model works fine if it's done using a community/cooperative model...at whatever level the members wish to participate use a share and share alike approach.

What a waste of time. Discussing the discussion, that's pretty much what happens and then of course disagreement = VPW has you hypnotized! Oh well. This is the last time for me. S'yall!

Oh now WordWolf that's just crazy talk! :biglaugh:/> Reincarnation has never "quite" added up for me. Reincarnation fits with the Conservaton of Energy law I think but I'm not sure that law is fully accommodated by it in return. Where all of the consciousness is coming from is a sticky issue for me. "Life" isn't an entirely unique thing, as it actually occurs. It's a "miracle" I would agree but once the requirements are met it's up and running - and there's a lot of miracles running around. And those miracles can be 'accidents' and unintentional, even out right cursed by the progenitors, later. So the higher purpose of life, if there is one, isn't required to be served in order to produce a life. The process of producing an instance of life is also very repeatable from existing materials - buuuuut - The consciousness not so much. Consciousness and specifically the accumulation of memories is individual and only occurs in an individual instance, or "container" as it were. Without memories there's not a lot of usable life. That's where I get stuck - Life is produced from existing materials but can't actually become a person that would learn or do anything without extreme change - "aging" by our word. So there's "Life" the idea and there's "Life" the actual person, which is all that really counts. So ------- it isn't really repeatable in the way that reincarnation suggests I think.

Growing up in the 50's and 60's, raised and educated Roman Catholic, converted to Christianity and now something of a Reformed Christian I've probably been exposed to many of the same things as the rest of you. If I didn't want to believe the history and tradition of Christianity there are many different alternates, interpretations and options. Pick one and go with it. So far I haven't seen anything that provides a factual alternate. Christianity is often criticized as being short on facts, long on faith. Fine, just don't ask me to switch to another view where there are in fact, no facts to outweigh the Christian view .That just seems silly. But believe as you will, it's a free country. Either way, Rome came and went and the names of the Romans who supposedly cooked this up are gone and their names aren't exactly household words. Today I saw a bumper sticker that said "Jesus Loves You"....haven't seen a lot of "The Emperor Titus Flavius Loves You" stickers. Lately.

Another thing to consider about the evidence/history of Jesus - this is juat a point of my own but in response to the topic - Jews by commandment were forbidden to make idols, "graven imags", statues, etc. to worship or pray to. Jehovah didn't want a sculpted rendering of "Himself" that mankind would go to, look at and say "this represents God", or "this is God". Jesus - the "son of God" - would not have been treated differently by the Jews that followed Him, I would think....the Temple wasn't God or where God "was" or lived, and the N.T. speaks to that in the book of Acts. So there was no ongoing traditon of elevating iconic images of God or any of the Prophets. Roman scupture and art was very developed at that time however - no lack of it, quite the opposite. I might conjecture if I was going to - that a Roman Jesus would have been served very well by some later statues, paintings, engravings, turning up.....just a thought. Now - of course Roman Catholicism comes to mind - which became very involved in imagery and the desire to represent God and Jesus and all of the assorted characters of history, but these are all after the fact and make no claim to be anything other than at best, inspired efforts but with no declared claim to be accurate depictions. Today many denominations are flooded with it - shoot, we got Jesus's in America that look like Greg Allman after a good night's sleep, hot shower and hearty breakfast. No lack of it today but nothnig that comes from that era. So rather than assuming the faux Jesus stuff is Roman developed it makes more - or at least equal sense - to take the stance that the lack of historical images and renderings is completely in context with what the Jews that converted would have done. And not done. In other words, the absence of paintings, statues, icons and representations of Jesus would be typical and characteristic of His era and the abundance that evolved later would indicate the influence of external influences and a misguided effort to basically market Christianity.

I wanted more but after reading everything I found, shy of buying the book - I don't see the Romans, a Roman, saying "We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it" - ever. There's no historical facts - just a projection. Christians take a lot of heat but - after this guy started selling his book, the Pope didn't put out an order to execute the guy. Religious faithful aren't storming the streets and burning the guy's book and beating people that try to buy it. We're not crying on TV interviews and wailing to the sky about how insulting and degrading it is that this guy would demean Mohammed - er- I mean, Jesus. Christians get crazy about a lot of stuff - but it's largely small slices of the larger demographic and as far as that goes, there's nothing inhuman about being passionate and drive towards what one believes is true. Rather, it's natural. I swear though - I'm sick to the gut of guys like this who publish day dreams and wanna - be's and act like their scholarly credentials aren't tarnished in the process, $elling books up the ying yang, and all the while smugly attacking something they have no real chance of changing. Enough with the butter knives guys, if you want to cut Jesus Christ down to size you're going to need a bigger knife! :evilshades:/>Just say - you don't want to believe it, the bible, the stuff, and move on and stop selling books and making money off the wonderful effort you make to try and free the stupid and heal the dumb. :evilshades:/>

You read my mind, Steve! (note to self: investigate possible get-into-socks-brain pattern of certain posting here....more to come) I guess I need to read more of what Atwell is selling to comment but dammed if I'm putting more money into anyone's pocket in the name of Jesus. I read "Zealot" couple months ago - a fact checker's nightmare. The author, a Muslim, invented and embellished facts as he wrote. It should be sub titled "Based on Events Some Believe May Have Happened This Way". I got tired after the first couple chapters and just skimmed the rest to the end - it was interesting but not really a scholarly effort, given that the author is a self described "scholar". If it was as Atwill describes, the Roman psyche strategy did indeed fail. Or backfired - and what about Constantine? That didn't fire up until the 3rd century. Slow burn syndrome? The premise - invent a peaceful Christ for Jews to follow that will reduce the risk to the Roman empire... In the End Run Game, Jesus isn't widely considered to be a peaceful Messiah, for one thing - let me qualify that - Practically speaking the entire message requires a fundamental, all-family-business-is-settled reckoning between - call them the Good guys and the Bad guys. The names and faces change regularly but even the most peaceful "age of Grace" Christians believe that at any time - BAM! He's coming back and this time...it's personal. /> Whether that be in the sky or through human transformation or anything inbetween. Thus my "Chafing at the Bit" theory - some of us just aren't going to wait. Acts 15 - if that's part of the early history the church in Jerusalem had accepted Gentiles as Christians into the church and determined to not burden them with observing Jewish tradition - that entire growing base would reflect a different demographic in the world at that time - so the Experimental Roman Jesus exploded in a way the Romans didn't plan for - which seems either really ironic or just plain bad luck! The records of the gospels carry the Jerusalem/Samaritan comparison, for "loving your neighbor"....that message in fact draws all Jews together if they follow it, towards a "Jerusalme of the Spirit" as it were - if that message were followed it would serve to reduce the divisiveness at that time between them - so it's interesting - the so-called-Roman-Jesus promotes a coming together of Judean and Samaritan Jews? which would potentially strengthen them not weaken them. I'm curious how Atwell accounts for the fact that - IF - this was a Roman concoction - why there is not more Roman historical material available then - if would have been completely in their interest of succeeding to have presented more material to actually document His existence at that time - yet, we're still left with so little that the very existence AT ALL is still questioned by many. Again and as always - the primary records are then by those who participated or spoke to those who did - seems like an odd way to build a Religion if you're actually building it, versus it just "happening".

Most of the theological dogma - call it doctrine for want of a better word - defines the nine things listed in 1. Cor. 12 as "nine gifts of the spirit" that are given individually by God, issued "severally" as He wills. I note the "severally" because it highlights the translation and contextual nuances that are involved - today, the average person reading that word would assume it means more than one, several this or that - as used in the Bible it has the meaning of "separately" and even "individually". The ESV renders it so: All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. Me, I don't fault anyone's efforts and give high marks for showing and trying but I don't think much has come out of the ex-Way community on this particular topic that's much different than what's already out and about despite the fact that the cost to learn their ex-Way versions of it has gone up quite a bit and consistently so, over the years. One Gift/Nine Manifestations isn't a widespread interpretation, so most of what you read on the topic of 1 Cor. 12 is going to be counter to that. A good middle ground is EW Bullinger, which will certainly show you ground zero of the textual work.

Requirement? No. Family, friends I trust, I might. Sometimes it's a burden to the other person to know a lot of details. But no, there's no biblical requirement which is why Romans 8:26 and 27 say what they do. People are curious animals though, always sniffing around. It's in the blood I guess. "No harm in asking" in either case. Could be harm in answering though. So someone says "well what's wrong honey? Yes, I'll pray for you How can I help? Is there anything I can do?"......that's fine. There's no imperative from the "Word of God" however to reveal specifics when prayer is requested. I do pray "in the spirit", and often. Speak in tongues. Don't make it a Jesus or the wall kind of thing. I have made an effort to separate the basic foundational things of "faith and practice" in my life from the people and the sources from which they come. It doesn't matter who or how I learned it from - some things I've learned from seeing what's WRONG as much as what's right. I give recognition to everything and everyone past, present and future that have come through my life however, even the dimwads and darfishes that I'd just as soon throw tomato sauce on and might given time and oppportunity. Yeh, I'm a tweeze. I'm fine with that. Some I could have done without but in a way those two verses in Romans also speak to that part of life - where I would pick and choose this way and that, perhaps God would see it differently. Can't change it now, either way that's for sure. So pray, in the spirit, speak in tongues, think well and positively, send the best mental and emotional messages you have into the ether. Cant' hurt. There's no imperative from the "Word of God" however to reveal specifics when prayer is requested.

Who left the gate open...again.... <br> <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/95E6ON8s8-0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Congrats BikerBabe. That's great news and insight. I remember the first batch of "regular" liquid nicotine e-cig I tried, the full strength stuff. I got dizzy. At the time I had smoked ultra light generic brands for years, so that direct hit of strong nicotine was too much, almost made me sick. That's educational in and of itself, right there. It's very possible to use e-cig's to roll off the nicotine strength to 0. The liquid blend of 50/50 pg and vg with a flavoring is all you "vape" then, there's no nicotine at all. What they label "6 mg" is the x-light level for most blends. By the time you hit that you're not getting a lot of nicotine and of course, none of the chemicals that go into tobacco processing. A list - interesting reading. The e-cig industry is wise to move forward carefully but firmly. There's no reason that an alternative delivery system for nicotine that uses the same method as cigarettes to deliver it (inhalation) should be viewed differently than cigarettes. There's always the side effect too that with an e-cig you'll never set your bed on fire or accidentally burn a hole in your favorite shirt, sure. But it CAN be a method to quit smoking cigarettes, if that's your goal and every success story supports that. It can also be a method to quit inhaling nicotine completely, if that's your goal. After that whatever risk the e-cig "vaping" products contain are unrelated to the traditional and known risks of smoking tobacco. All the anecdotal data supports that the e-cig used for inhaling flavored vapor with or without the nicotine or chemicals provides a method for the pathological behaviors that a cigarette user has after quitting nicotine. Basically the "habit" part - you can have something in your hand that you put in your mouth and inhale and receive the same sense of ingestion you got smoking. It's like a pacifier for adult infant behaviors. /> And that will, in fact, allow a person to "quit" if they want to. I don't smoke, haven't for over a year. I stopped several years ago then started. Now, that's over and won't restart again. You get to a point after awhile where the smell and the smoke itself is just so stanky and horrible - well, I can't take it anymore, speaking for myself. I understand those who still do though. Now the distance between the effect and what I did to achieve it is like, far. Too far to get there from here anymore. /> Congrats!!! You won!!!! Savor the victory, you went a long way to achieve it.

...dandruff of the gods... <br> <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/eGxQQIgEmgk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/nVyvJ_Jj6QI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Interesting! the physical aspects of man that resemble or are the "same" as other animals makes sense krys. Not that it proves anything that it makes sense but it does. I have several basic fundamentals that form the tenets of my beliefs and one is that the physical world of life on this planet is all very much alike, very similar and that there is great diversity in how those similarities exist and are in execution. Like, movement. Movement, defined as a form of change. All movement happens in a very restrictive context. A thing changes position, it's x y z coordinates. That change is perceived in relation to something else that holds positions. That change is understood by additional x y z coordinates, time. I could add coordinates for both subjective and objective measurement. It's all very interesting (to me) and incredibly diverse in execution but movement-change happens pretty much the same for everything that moves. So I wonder why that way and and not others? Why is movement-change limited to a thing being "here" and then being "there" through effort or influence....? That's really buggy to me and seems very unlikely in a reality plane that would be without ordered design....There may be other ways we don't know about but that isn't measurable. So the answer "because that's the way it is" or that's the way it evolved doesn't sound much different to me than "that's the way God designed it" because we can't know of an evolution that included a totally unique and different means of movement that got us to where we are now if we can't know of it, that it existed and there are no artifacts of it's existence.... For things to be the way they are, regardless of how they got that way, doesn't refute or deny that additional aspect of influence, in fact the physical world of movement-change thrives on influence. Another is the quality of consciousness, which is universally singular. There is a "oneness" to all conscious awareness. Another is the fact that reality only exists as it's understood by it's differences - no two things are the same. If things were in fact the same they wouldn't be two things they'd be one. So nothing is really ever "the same" as anything else, and definitely not anything that is self aware because that awareness of self is actually an awareness of not being something else as much as it is in being aware of it's own self. While the universe may contain unknown vastness, the universe we do know is one that is the way it is, not the way it's not. There's a border around diversity. And evolution for all it's possibility is really just a theory of probabilities, IMO. Designer and design can't be removed from the realm of reality without applying extreme prejudice and arrogance IMO. Not that that's what the video guy did, at all. But it's most important to not get tripped up on snakes and talking donkeys in the Bible, because in fact diabolical snakes and talking burros would be the least unusual things possible, IMO if I really remove the border around life and start to think about all the "what if's". Existence could be very different than it is for us, now. But it's not. Tomorrow's another working day though and I will have to get some rest, regardless. So it's alright, it's alright..../> .

There's a lot of sections of the Bible that speak to "wisdom" - Gods', man's, one versus the other, being wise, getting wisdom, what it is, etc. etc. Generally speaking but not specifically to the original query of this thread something like a word study would help getting a fix on what it means in the Bible byfrom examining the various contexts in which it's used and attempting to understand the intent of its' usage. Along those lines a key verse to the topic of the thread is 1 Cor. 3:19 - For this world's wisdom is foolishness (absurdity and stupidity) with God, for it is written, He lays hold of the wise in their craftiness; And wisdom there, "sophia" or reasonings. Pretty simple. Gods' reasoning is of a higher status than mans' is the idea, I think. 1 Cor 3 covers the difficulty of people exhalting one person over another as a teacher or leader in that church. Apollos over Paul, that kind of thing. I think it's probably pretty simple to say that if 1. a person believes in God, Jehovah specifically, Father of Jesus Christ and they believe that 2. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and has a specific purpose as being sent forth from God to man - then there's been some level of reasoning and thought that's already occurred..... and while the Paul we read about in the N.T. seems to have done a great deal of work in understanding Christ in light of scripture and philosophy he also wrote that he wasn't presenting a message of "reasonings" but rather one of "power" - and I think that's a basic idea that's consistent with the overall message of the N.T. about Jesus Christ - that while there's thought and consideration that goes into understanding and accepting Jesus Christ as Son of God the reality of Christ is not one that comes from intellectual effort to conceptualize a "Jesus" as being what they/Paul believed He was - rather that Jesus Christ was revealed to be the Son of God by the will and intent of God - the "power" of God, not man's and they understood it by that revealing that God did. Again, a theme that runs through the N.T. - not by man's effort or will or works but God's through Christ. The wisdom of man produces hierarchies and tiers of authority, preferences towards thought and logic like what seems to be referred to in 1 Cor. 3 ( and just one example of the usages of "sophia" ) Paul seems to be saying there that the foundations, the platform and all of the underpinnings of the Christian message he and the other apostles taught were not based on that and not to be confused with other material that might support or even refute that, rather that their teaching, the message, the stuff they said they believed to be true, was the fundamental stuff. When I think of foolishness in wisdom and the conflict of "worldly" and "godly" I think of it in relation to the N.T. doctrine of Jesus Christ. There is an element of "faith" that underscores Christianity but Christianity could not be said to be based solely on faith, in it's origins. It's really what a group of people said happened, what they said they heard and saw and what they understood - believed - it to mean based on what happened and what they were told by Jesus Christ. There was a faith that they invested in what they'd experienced. One kind of reasoning could say "Jesus couldn't have healed a blind man and it could not have been a sign from God or a testament to who Jesus Christ was"........I'd assume their response would have been something like "I know - it's' nuts! But that's what happened and Jesus Himself spoke to us about it and much more. If you think that's crazy listen to this...."

Craig made half baked look well done. Smack the stupid out of that boy somebody, he's lighting his toe nails on fire again. Now Stayin' Alive - that's a different story. It only makes sense that John Travolta's horrendous dancing would be used by the Satanic kingdom to document and illustrate it's structure and goals. Yae.

"We're all gone now."

One of perhaps many....just search for eve, craig and wap http://www.greasespo...__1#entry495119

Innterestin'...........and The bible teaches in Romans, pay what's owed - taxes, honor, give all their due and in fact "owe" nothing by paying "everything", that is to "Love", which will thereby do all that's required. So while Craig may not have liked the tax codes and cost to do business - join the club, but there is a cost of doing business and the Way was a business. He just didn't like running it according to the requirements and direction that's given in the very book he publicly "taught" from. Uncle Harry-san knew how to juggle finances and debt. He did it very well. He was a "sharp" business man in his day. I remember when we lived there, and about 1975, we went to a local auction that we'd heard he and some others from the Way were going to. It was all locals, a few Wayfers, and it seemed business as usual, 40 -50 people looking over the estate stuff and what was being sold. We were looking around for furniture and stuff. Then HEW got there and it ran through the crowd, we could hear it .........."Harry's here, he's looking to buy...."....."I saw him, not sure what he's looking for, he's here though"..........there was a buzz around his presence and of course his check book. Action, H.E.'s here... I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, rather that's the result of his years of doing business in the area and being successful. If he'd arrived and owed everyone money or been a rube no one would have cared. My biggest lesson learned, looking back to how the Way built itself that first decade after PFAL was in the can, is that it grew too fast. Money was a problem - there was money, sure but by extending itself out to buy Emporia and then the Rome City campus it took on too much responsibility too fast and ran them with inexperienced people - "us". It was cute to say everyone had to "rise up" but hey - if it ain't working it ain't working. And given the number of times VPW canned and fired everyone every month and then rehired them all the next morning - it wasn't working. Unless you call a car that shuts down every mile and needs a jump, a car that "runs". Trusting in God to provide means that you do just that - you work within His guidance do just that - trust. That can mean waiting, for any number of reasons including taking the time to become the "faithful steward". Water under the bridge now but an interesting topic.

The Way Nash leveraged financing through bank loans regularly to do it's business. Always did. VPW would act like a mouse had eaten his cat when he talked about it, how uptight he was about having to mortgage property or assets. But HEW did, with his business. Floated money to support the Way. He always made it sound like "back in the early years" as if it was a learning curve for him that he'd grown out of. Buuuuuuut, that was in the 70's.....no early years there. That was during the growth bubble of the Way. No one wants to be in debt over their means, have bills they can't pay, spending habits that don't reflect good money management and common sense. The Way would never have gotten off the ground and to any state of self sufficiency without 1. loans and 2. other people's contributions. PFAL made $ from the donation/fee but it wasn't enough to finance properties, growth, salaries, all of that. Now Martindale, something of a different story there. He apparently felt that the Way had enough $$$$ flowing to put all the Way Corps membership on 'salary', basically make them all paid employees of the Way. It was this period and the subsequent years that I'd assume put him on the rabid "no debt" policy track - he didn't want the Way to bear the debts of others and then when that plan tanked he wanted to feel better about having screwed so many people over so he lowered the bar of what others should expect and do. No money, no job, no real resume' to speak of - you're going to need to get your tail working unless like Craig you have other people's money paying your way and/or family to hit on that will pay your way. I only heard about it all second hand, I'd left the Way by then but - Honestly - he and Howard must have never done the math. When I heard about it after it had failed I was shocked. He was nuts, to be kind. I can't imagine how he thought it was going to work - probably some boosted juiced formula of ROI. Man, talk about naive. No heavy revvie there - what he did was like jumping off a bridge and expecting to land on your feet unharmed. If "God tells you" to do that, go for it. But you better have it in writing or you're going to be real sore real soon. As was he. And his view of what was "good financial planning" was illustrated by the fact that - reportedly - the Way almost went bankrupt because Craig didn't wake up to what was going on until Howard Allen told him they were running out of money and had only another couple months of resources to pay out. That's just - ka razee too. Beware all ye who enter - outside of a few well worn euphemisms and boy-howdies you can get from anywhere else, the Way gives terrible financial advice. Again - the "good" advice they give is available from 1,000's of other sources, including what your momma and daddy probably told you. They ain't pushing rocket science. Work, save, share what you can, collaborate as much as possible, spend wisely, partner considerately, borrow frugally, pay back timely. Repeat. Again. Doink.