socks

...dandruff of the gods... <br> <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/eGxQQIgEmgk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Interesting! the physical aspects of man that resemble or are the "same" as other animals makes sense krys. Not that it proves anything that it makes sense but it does. I have several basic fundamentals that form the tenets of my beliefs and one is that the physical world of life on this planet is all very much alike, very similar and that there is great diversity in how those similarities exist and are in execution. Like, movement. Movement, defined as a form of change. All movement happens in a very restrictive context. A thing changes position, it's x y z coordinates. That change is perceived in relation to something else that holds positions. That change is understood by additional x y z coordinates, time. I could add coordinates for both subjective and objective measurement. It's all very interesting (to me) and incredibly diverse in execution but movement-change happens pretty much the same for everything that moves. So I wonder why that way and and not others? Why is movement-change limited to a thing being "here" and then being "there" through effort or influence....? That's really buggy to me and seems very unlikely in a reality plane that would be without ordered design....There may be other ways we don't know about but that isn't measurable. So the answer "because that's the way it is" or that's the way it evolved doesn't sound much different to me than "that's the way God designed it" because we can't know of an evolution that included a totally unique and different means of movement that got us to where we are now if we can't know of it, that it existed and there are no artifacts of it's existence.... For things to be the way they are, regardless of how they got that way, doesn't refute or deny that additional aspect of influence, in fact the physical world of movement-change thrives on influence. Another is the quality of consciousness, which is universally singular. There is a "oneness" to all conscious awareness. Another is the fact that reality only exists as it's understood by it's differences - no two things are the same. If things were in fact the same they wouldn't be two things they'd be one. So nothing is really ever "the same" as anything else, and definitely not anything that is self aware because that awareness of self is actually an awareness of not being something else as much as it is in being aware of it's own self. While the universe may contain unknown vastness, the universe we do know is one that is the way it is, not the way it's not. There's a border around diversity. And evolution for all it's possibility is really just a theory of probabilities, IMO. Designer and design can't be removed from the realm of reality without applying extreme prejudice and arrogance IMO. Not that that's what the video guy did, at all. But it's most important to not get tripped up on snakes and talking donkeys in the Bible, because in fact diabolical snakes and talking burros would be the least unusual things possible, IMO if I really remove the border around life and start to think about all the "what if's". Existence could be very different than it is for us, now. But it's not. Tomorrow's another working day though and I will have to get some rest, regardless. So it's alright, it's alright..../> .

There's a lot of sections of the Bible that speak to "wisdom" - Gods', man's, one versus the other, being wise, getting wisdom, what it is, etc. etc. Generally speaking but not specifically to the original query of this thread something like a word study would help getting a fix on what it means in the Bible byfrom examining the various contexts in which it's used and attempting to understand the intent of its' usage. Along those lines a key verse to the topic of the thread is 1 Cor. 3:19 - For this world's wisdom is foolishness (absurdity and stupidity) with God, for it is written, He lays hold of the wise in their craftiness; And wisdom there, "sophia" or reasonings. Pretty simple. Gods' reasoning is of a higher status than mans' is the idea, I think. 1 Cor 3 covers the difficulty of people exhalting one person over another as a teacher or leader in that church. Apollos over Paul, that kind of thing. I think it's probably pretty simple to say that if 1. a person believes in God, Jehovah specifically, Father of Jesus Christ and they believe that 2. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and has a specific purpose as being sent forth from God to man - then there's been some level of reasoning and thought that's already occurred..... and while the Paul we read about in the N.T. seems to have done a great deal of work in understanding Christ in light of scripture and philosophy he also wrote that he wasn't presenting a message of "reasonings" but rather one of "power" - and I think that's a basic idea that's consistent with the overall message of the N.T. about Jesus Christ - that while there's thought and consideration that goes into understanding and accepting Jesus Christ as Son of God the reality of Christ is not one that comes from intellectual effort to conceptualize a "Jesus" as being what they/Paul believed He was - rather that Jesus Christ was revealed to be the Son of God by the will and intent of God - the "power" of God, not man's and they understood it by that revealing that God did. Again, a theme that runs through the N.T. - not by man's effort or will or works but God's through Christ. The wisdom of man produces hierarchies and tiers of authority, preferences towards thought and logic like what seems to be referred to in 1 Cor. 3 ( and just one example of the usages of "sophia" ) Paul seems to be saying there that the foundations, the platform and all of the underpinnings of the Christian message he and the other apostles taught were not based on that and not to be confused with other material that might support or even refute that, rather that their teaching, the message, the stuff they said they believed to be true, was the fundamental stuff. When I think of foolishness in wisdom and the conflict of "worldly" and "godly" I think of it in relation to the N.T. doctrine of Jesus Christ. There is an element of "faith" that underscores Christianity but Christianity could not be said to be based solely on faith, in it's origins. It's really what a group of people said happened, what they said they heard and saw and what they understood - believed - it to mean based on what happened and what they were told by Jesus Christ. There was a faith that they invested in what they'd experienced. One kind of reasoning could say "Jesus couldn't have healed a blind man and it could not have been a sign from God or a testament to who Jesus Christ was"........I'd assume their response would have been something like "I know - it's' nuts! But that's what happened and Jesus Himself spoke to us about it and much more. If you think that's crazy listen to this...."

Craig made half baked look well done. Smack the stupid out of that boy somebody, he's lighting his toe nails on fire again. Now Stayin' Alive - that's a different story. It only makes sense that John Travolta's horrendous dancing would be used by the Satanic kingdom to document and illustrate it's structure and goals. Yae.

"We're all gone now."

One of perhaps many....just search for eve, craig and wap http://www.greasespo...__1#entry495119

Innterestin'...........and The bible teaches in Romans, pay what's owed - taxes, honor, give all their due and in fact "owe" nothing by paying "everything", that is to "Love", which will thereby do all that's required. So while Craig may not have liked the tax codes and cost to do business - join the club, but there is a cost of doing business and the Way was a business. He just didn't like running it according to the requirements and direction that's given in the very book he publicly "taught" from. Uncle Harry-san knew how to juggle finances and debt. He did it very well. He was a "sharp" business man in his day. I remember when we lived there, and about 1975, we went to a local auction that we'd heard he and some others from the Way were going to. It was all locals, a few Wayfers, and it seemed business as usual, 40 -50 people looking over the estate stuff and what was being sold. We were looking around for furniture and stuff. Then HEW got there and it ran through the crowd, we could hear it .........."Harry's here, he's looking to buy...."....."I saw him, not sure what he's looking for, he's here though"..........there was a buzz around his presence and of course his check book. Action, H.E.'s here... I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, rather that's the result of his years of doing business in the area and being successful. If he'd arrived and owed everyone money or been a rube no one would have cared. My biggest lesson learned, looking back to how the Way built itself that first decade after PFAL was in the can, is that it grew too fast. Money was a problem - there was money, sure but by extending itself out to buy Emporia and then the Rome City campus it took on too much responsibility too fast and ran them with inexperienced people - "us". It was cute to say everyone had to "rise up" but hey - if it ain't working it ain't working. And given the number of times VPW canned and fired everyone every month and then rehired them all the next morning - it wasn't working. Unless you call a car that shuts down every mile and needs a jump, a car that "runs". Trusting in God to provide means that you do just that - you work within His guidance do just that - trust. That can mean waiting, for any number of reasons including taking the time to become the "faithful steward". Water under the bridge now but an interesting topic.

The Way Nash leveraged financing through bank loans regularly to do it's business. Always did. VPW would act like a mouse had eaten his cat when he talked about it, how uptight he was about having to mortgage property or assets. But HEW did, with his business. Floated money to support the Way. He always made it sound like "back in the early years" as if it was a learning curve for him that he'd grown out of. Buuuuuuut, that was in the 70's.....no early years there. That was during the growth bubble of the Way. No one wants to be in debt over their means, have bills they can't pay, spending habits that don't reflect good money management and common sense. The Way would never have gotten off the ground and to any state of self sufficiency without 1. loans and 2. other people's contributions. PFAL made $ from the donation/fee but it wasn't enough to finance properties, growth, salaries, all of that. Now Martindale, something of a different story there. He apparently felt that the Way had enough $$$$ flowing to put all the Way Corps membership on 'salary', basically make them all paid employees of the Way. It was this period and the subsequent years that I'd assume put him on the rabid "no debt" policy track - he didn't want the Way to bear the debts of others and then when that plan tanked he wanted to feel better about having screwed so many people over so he lowered the bar of what others should expect and do. No money, no job, no real resume' to speak of - you're going to need to get your tail working unless like Craig you have other people's money paying your way and/or family to hit on that will pay your way. I only heard about it all second hand, I'd left the Way by then but - Honestly - he and Howard must have never done the math. When I heard about it after it had failed I was shocked. He was nuts, to be kind. I can't imagine how he thought it was going to work - probably some boosted juiced formula of ROI. Man, talk about naive. No heavy revvie there - what he did was like jumping off a bridge and expecting to land on your feet unharmed. If "God tells you" to do that, go for it. But you better have it in writing or you're going to be real sore real soon. As was he. And his view of what was "good financial planning" was illustrated by the fact that - reportedly - the Way almost went bankrupt because Craig didn't wake up to what was going on until Howard Allen told him they were running out of money and had only another couple months of resources to pay out. That's just - ka razee too. Beware all ye who enter - outside of a few well worn euphemisms and boy-howdies you can get from anywhere else, the Way gives terrible financial advice. Again - the "good" advice they give is available from 1,000's of other sources, including what your momma and daddy probably told you. They ain't pushing rocket science. Work, save, share what you can, collaborate as much as possible, spend wisely, partner considerately, borrow frugally, pay back timely. Repeat. Again. Doink.

I would summarize thusly: The environment of POP, the platform for the events as they occured, was VPW's ill health and death. My opinion. He had been ill, very sick and it was a battle for at least 4 years (that I was aware of, perhaps more). He was sick, he was seeing Doctors, he tried a nutritional approach, then he had the surgery on his eye, and more time after that fighting his illnesses. He blamed his inability to both heal and die in a timely way (for Chissakes!) on the "unbelieving" of everyone else, mostly those closest to him like Don, Craig, Howard, and a few others. (Jaysus, he blamed so many people that worked right under his nose, so it's funny that all those years he himself was unable to keep mid level managers like Bob W and Tom whatsisnamewiththereadhair under control) He got sick, very ill, he had surgery, his health continued to go up and down and ultimately his health failed. The negative aspects of that are things many of us have or will deal with whether ourselves or others. Way theology redefined "health" in such as way as to mean that "perfect" health was always available but not always "received" due to lack of believing, be it our own or even the believing of others around us. Supportive believing feeds deliverance, negative feeds defeat is the basic flow of thought there. Biblically we all know the same verses on all sides - I believe what VPW taught on this, to clarify this one point - that deliverance is a product of the deliverance of God. God asks that we trust Him, rely on Him. Our trust provides the perpective through which we have our relationship with God but whether we do or not has little to do with what God does or doesn't "do", rather our destinies are governed by God's grace, in the big picture.... Regardless how you slice it all though, all of us are going to die at some point, barring alternative intervention. I think VPW acted like many people of his age and health at that time in their lives. He lashed out, blamed others, denied reality - he didn't like his condition - who would? Instead of chilling out and taking constructive measures to fix what he thought was wrong, he gave up - again, tired of the 'fight" with others. Given his lifetime of teaching all of us to "stand baby, no matter what anyone else does, you STAND, fight for the truth and the ministry that taught it to you babeee!"...... that's a little disappointing. It just is. He gave up and whined it out to Geer. In the end he was not that much different than anyone else, despite all the Word of God HE KNEW and was able to act upon. And at the same time he had his three closest bud's ready to kick him to the curb so they could get on with the Ministry Business as they wanted to conduct it. Talk about a flash of cold reality!

In the Way we took years to do things others would have needed months to do. Or weeks. The "fixing" of the Way wasn't difficult. If the purpose was to get us all "back on the Word" - that's not a relative value. It's specific. And it's not a process, it's a state of mind. "Believing" - the Way had taught that point for years. Instant clarity. Once the Trustees "said" they accepted Geer's direction, that was really all you needed.... If that's all there was to it. Geer had no interest in anything related to "adultery" other than he wanted it kept a non issue. If the Trustees had trusted him and the others they'd been screwing around with, they'd have had no problem, they'd have been perfectly happy to keep on with what they were doing. They apparently were muttering on about how to manage the failed ministry that was failing because they would not do a few simple things and instead try to debate their positions with Geer. Who gave a crap? Not any of us. It would have been very simple for them to - in a word - suck it up and come open, clean and honest with everyone and literally, start over. Over the years I've come to know the looks on their faces and their manner of behavior - it's simply fear. Deathly fear. Under attack their character flaws provided the gaps for the fear of failure - which we'd dealt with so much bluster over the years and hours of teaching and blathering about conquering fear..... To tear them down and apart. What were they afraid of? Everything they'd been doing that they knew was wrong - the money, the affairs, the nods and passes they'd given to people over the years and the condemnations they'd given to others for the very same offenses... The unfairness, the greed, the pride. Building the campuses and staffing them for what - ? I believe they'd talked themselves through all their bureaucratic crap for so many years until they finally realized - we're screwed. We're getting whacked by the very guy we 1. got everything from and then 2. pushed aside. Like dominoes, it all fell - The "Passing of the Patriarch" reads like a Manual for Crafting Failure" - I'm sure Geer and others who live in that life stream still don't see that. But it's so clear reading it today, clearer than it was even then, hearing it for the first time - no matter how well intended or what excuses Geer made or would make today - it's a chronicle of the failure of the leadership of the ministry. Geer does point out quite clearly that the point of the "root" was to "feed" the tree - despite the fact that the use of the tree as a means of understanding the Way's ministry so clearly pointed out but ignored the true life of a growing tree - it's fruit. They insisted that the rotten "root" was tainting the entire "tree" - that's nothing more than being blinded to the vast strength that did exist in the ministry regardless of what these a-holes did or didn't do - the many people of the Way. All the focus on Tom this and Bob that and Craig and Don and Howard - guess what guys, there were 1,000's of people who God loved, cared for and was working in reGARDless of what they did and who in both truth and fact could have been a source of strength and inspiration if even the slightest bit of concern had been shown for them. Instead, they sat eating popcorn, sipping coffee and enjoying the transcontinental travel while they flushed their own futures down the toilet. And they KNEW, the Bustees knew dammed well Geer wasn't going away quietly or quickly. Corps were taking sides, sending him money, buying into his tapes, mailings and anything else they could get. The Big ShootOut at the OK Korral was fought with water guns.

True, out. Nothing WAS ever specific. Geer's entire premise for "what was wrong" was based on one thing - that Dr. Weirwille had told him he believed the Way BOT, Directors, Corps Directors, WOW staff, all of the Way leaders, Corps members and anyone else with a phone or mail box that he'd ever taught the Bible too had 1. forsaken him 2. sold out to the adversary in one way or another and 3. didn't care or want to listen to him. That's not an exaggeration. That's the exact truth, as told to the Corps by Chris Geer. It only took about a minute to say, at several points in his public speech to the corps that year at Corps Week, and then there was the endless drubbing of the POP reading itself. But that was the sum and substance of the only things he said 'were wrong" - specifically. That Dr. Weirwille had been forsaken. Everyone therefore needed to "come back to the Word" which meant to come back to some - Very unclear Form of acceptance and activity that would show us all to be back in the Saddle again. It was bull - shi t. There was a lot of talk about "Prayer" - prayer's always a good thing but that became the recourse for everyone's confusion. Pray because no one has any idea what else to do. Desparation, for many of the pray-ers. Lots of talk about "believing" too - which didn't mean much to anyone who was already doing that to the best of their ability. It was, by any bibilical standards, or just those old dirty regular run of the mill human standards - a completely stanky mess. Bottom line though - it was a catalyst for change and that was a good thing - and could have been managed better and easier if anyone HAD REALLY WANTED to see change and progress at the Way. But none of them did once they got POP stuck up their butts, they were deathly afraid about what to do next. Funny - after all those years of pumping up their "believing" they caved at the first real challenge, which came from within their own ranks. Which in fact was something that VPW himself had identified while he was alive, would happen after he died...........so IMO the stew was brewing for a few years there, dissatisfaction, pride, envy, jealousy, greed - all the good ones were at work in that leadership group including Dr. Weirwille. Pride is the only real explanation for how a person of his history and investment would act in such a distorted way. I've always said though - Craig wasn't exactly a chicken shi t, in his day back then - so Geer was carrying some SERIOUS HOODOO to scare him into submission so quickly, SERIOUS cha cha in his bag.

I guess - by rights - I only mentioned because he does, and this is another opinion of mine aligned with the others - He does deserve to have his butt kicked from here to there and back, several times. He does. Not because he was a lowly sinner as were we all before we accepted Jay-zuz. But because he accepted Jesus and turned the trust others infused in him into a mean, spiteful and vigorously evil lifestyle. He did it with a group of people who - we said at that time - deserved to be treated with the utmost respect and love. He's also a pompously ostentatious blow hard whose very existence is an insult to people of morals and integrity everywhere, for the record. Last I heard he was franchising a teaching series, based on PFAL, and selling it for money. He built an evergreen cash stream out of the selling of God's Word. For that alone - he's scum. To me. In my book - scum. He had a chance to change and instead ramped up the product line so as to make a living off of it. People who do the work deserve the pay for it - that's why God says that He will reward us for our faithfulness and respond to our love for each other. God rewards. Geer wants you to pay. He wants his gold now. Fine, he's a weasel. Anyone that wants to tolerate that flea bag at this point, fine. Do it. Have at it. Talk to him, sure, if he falls into my lap one day when I don't have any Monk reruns to watch and the laundry's folded, sure. He needs help and guidance. Offer him a dime or give an inch to his obsequious pandering of the Devil's attentions - no. He can pay his own way. I don't need to say it. I just do anyway. I know - I'm as bad as he is, for being this way about it. Fine. I can live with that. There's room in this cootie platoon, move over. Nobody's perfect hey? Kind of gives us all a little room to breathe.

Regulation makes for some strange bedfellows, Twinky. http://www.usatoday....rettes/2414641/ Britains CMO sounds like a reasonable and intelligent person. We could use someone like that here. But regulated as a "medicine" sounds like an odd twist in the britches to improve the industry. Dunno. Here, government regulation to protect us usually means things are about to go wrong and very expensive. Usually. Sometimes.

My prayers and best wishes are with you rottiegrrl. My mother died several years ago - it seems like so long ago I can't remember the year, but it was only 5. Take whatever time you can and need to make things as best you can. It will mean a lot. For me, the position of predestination takes my mind off doing what I can, with what I have, for God and my fellow man. Any sense of "well, God will do whatever He wants with me anyway" takes away from the simple truth of that, but that's me, that's how the Bible itself seems to express God's will for man - for all to be saved, for all to learn and know, and all to be to His glory through Christ. I think - and this is with a capital T - that the people who wrote the stuff I read in the Bible grappled with the same things and ideas we do and that's why it isn't clearly resolved in the Bible and we end up having to interpret some ideas in light of others. I think it's unclear for a reason - God's true nature is beyond our understanding and ability to clearly articulate in human, man terms. People can write all the godly inspired literature they want and print it 24 hours a day - "the truth" of God's presence and of this life will reside in us as more of an idea than a writ. More of an impetus than a preconception. "Spirit" that comes and goes and we don't know where from or where to. Sure, I know lots of stuff but the Big Stuff? I'm only a student with a leaky pen and a hungry pet dog who likes my homework. . I'm not succumbing to an easy out - in fact, it's more difficult to allow for serendipity than it is to try and fail, or try and succeed. My faith is - and this is my "story" as it were - built on a reality that I am learning about everyday but can't fully explain. I try and I would assume in that Great Day in the By and By if I find out I'm wrong about any or all of it, frankly I'll be thrilled either way. "AT LAST - AHA!!!" If I turn out to be the broken vessel by God's design, I guess I'll have to accept that. What else could I do - but say, well, that explains why I was such a pain in the foot I guess. Case solved.

I think the reason I'm not really engrossed in the issue is that one or the other, it wouldn't change the exact reality that I have today, with God and the core experience of my life around both that reality and my resulting "faith". It would have an impact on some of it but unlike many Christians, I'm not overwhelmed with worry about all the details of "how' God "created" life. It's interesting but not really a deal breaker. Other people often pose this kind of information as if to say "SO, now, let's just get this straight PLEASE - all this business about your god and your spirit and this jesus is WRONG. Refer to (whatever it is) for details. Please get back to REALITY which is (whatever they say it is). Uh, no. I did some browsing - I guess this guy's premise is reasonable - there's a lot of "if" and "probably" and then "so if then it would have to be" kind of verbiage he uses as WW noted, and that seems to make it sound like he's doing a card trick out of the basic facts - so, so if then and if then and probably so then it would HAVE TO BE.....see, that just sets off alarms in my head. But the basic information appears correct. I'm not a scientist, can't verify any of it other than what I read. It sounds like the basic facts are "true". There's all kinds of slants on it though, ran across this in general browsing - http://www.answersin...s/tj/v17/n1/dna I'm not reading for or against, just reading. There's lots on both sides of the information that cast additional light and shadow on it.

Excellent verses! Cop out may be a strong phrase. I read and talk to people that have given up to defeat and rather than trust or asset their trust in God, basically give up and declare "it's over", and God has directed them into their current state. That may - or may not - be true. So it probably doesn't work across the board to state that. Free "will" is incorrect, agreed. "Choice" is what I see. I'm very much into considering these ideas, as you know Geisha. :)/> I really really do appreciate the opportunity to consider things here, yours and the others. God wills. We by our will or effort will not change or foil God's will, agreed. Example - God says Salvation is Door 1. There's only Door 1, have at it! Man or whoever says I built a Door 2 and Door 3, and I'm going to choose Door 2, for salvation". Man can't and won't change what God has established, and by "will" or directed effort cause it to apply or not be applied.

I'm not inclined to counter argue the point - it may in fact actually support an intelligent fusion of the suspect chromosomes, by intelligent design. I guess I'm missing something, where does it mean that this means man is "evolved" from his simian neighbors? I don't think that this is proof of that, Ham, I was kind of surprised that he/we/anyone make that jump. Related, in a way we are related to animals, God's creation. All the debate can cloud that, and asset the separation and differences, but I have to say I believe there are significant differences in the upper register of our intelligence stack. That things change based on environment, conditions, choice, goes without saying. "Evolution" isn't rocket science, to me. But the evidence doesn't prove that's the process that produced man, from simians, monkeys, salamanders or bees. I'm not suggesting a white haired God in flowing robes built Adam out of a clay pit as the alternative. I just don't think this proposal "proves" man evolved from (you name it) Maybe we did. This doesn't prove it. If someone can duplicate it that would be interesting.

Well, that's an interesting thought - control and what it means. God is "in control" yes, and I would expect that would also mean intimately, in each of our lives. That wouldn't mean God "controls" our lives, intimately however. As you note, the "Adversary" appears to be active in that arena. Me, I think the "god is in control" religion is a cop out. Most people are trying to be very much in control of what they do, as much as is reasonably possible - but when things don't go the way we'd like which is often, they say "there's a reason for everything and God is in control".... Really? Y'know - is that right? We'd like to think that there's reason to the madness we often see and hear and order to the chaos that can run amok everyday - I see it as the way of the world. This world wasn't designed or intended to be a controlled environment. If it was, it would act more like it. It just doesnt and trying to explain life's inconsistencies that way leads to a muck of goofy explanations to explain the explanations that aren't explainable.That way. It wouldn't mean however that a God didn't create a universe that would produce mooks like us that would try to explain it, one way or another. :biglaugh:/>

It's a gigantic wad of goodies, once we get going rottiegrrl. No question about that. I know many people, Christian, who just can't wait to get this life over with and get on to the next. Who feel the "real" one is - like a party going on next door they can't go to till they get their chores done. I like this one, now that I feel like I'm getting a leg up on understanding it. I know that sounds incredibly facetious and ridiculous - as if I have all the answers. I don't. And I understand that I'm not supposed to. I don't need to. To have a good life I can learn, listen, do things just like we're doing here and both fail and succeed, be smart and be stupid and just keep plodding along as if I didn't know any better. I don't. :biglaugh:/> That's what's so WONDERFUL!!! Sorry - enjoying the moment.

I agree, WW - Miller seems to be offering the same answer that he's challenging. Dawkins (although more extreme) does a similar disservice to his own ideas, contending no more than "things are the way they are because that's the way they are" to rephrase his logic. ============== How funny though - I know I'm the only one to see this so I don't expect you to get it Ham, but that video is titled "How to Shut Up Pesky Creationists".....did they even listen to or watch it? It's a perfect illustration of how the debate always goes. Well, Miller - having been a "Roman Catholic theist" at one time myself I can say from experience it doesn't do a lot for your brain and it does take a certain amount of time to recover and reconnect after any lengthy exposure to RCism. I can only hope that he too is in successful recovery, for there but for the grace of God ... I would tend to compare the broader view of the information in Genesis favorably in light of his contention(s) though, so no naysayer am I, no knee jerk jump off from me, no sir. Adam and Eve come into being in chapter 2. There's a lot of action before that. Given that the writer of Genesis wasn't 1. a Roman Catholic theist or 2. a Dr, of anything and certainly not a 3.4.5 scientist, biologist or genius The flow of the information in Genesis would flow with a development of life and it's formation on earth. I know many "creationists" don't think that or see that, so I gueeeeeess I get the rush to judgment. All the arguments about days and cells clouds the larger story of Genesis - it's not a school text book that will be revised next year based on whatever piece of scientific croutons are crumbled before next publication deadline. It's a record of magnanimous measure - the entire creation of the earth and all the surrounding universe, by a "God" who also creates a man and woman Two like no other before and to which a specific relationship was established by their creator. I say that because Genesis itself doesn't cover any of the kinds of information that it's normally compared against or in favor of. It tells it's own story, it's own way. But Miller's information actually could follow the same path, IMO.

Nice! Think it's a combination of things, rottiegrrl - Genesis - free will, choice - "Free will" or freedom of choice as I would term it, is often mis applied to mean "man can choose to control God or manage His will". There's a knee jerk reaction to it - "Oh, so you think you're better and smarter than God do you?" That's not what mans capacity to choose is or has ever been and as WW notes, it's not what Genesis states nor can be found anywhere in the Bible that I've read, even allowing for some of the looser translations. Clearly, in the Bibles' history man has ALWAYS had choices to make. It's almost ridiculous to assume that a universal creator that creates an entire universe of possibilities and developments would not be able to include choice and as many possible outcomes as His plan and design would allow for. It's as if there are two Gods and a choice has to be made (pun intended) as to which one we choose - one who, in order to maintain top status must control everything including the city you're going to live in and the traffic patterns tomorrow - that's the same one who ooks like a white long haired hippy, when he's not wearing his Stetson hat and spurs. and the God who creates a universe by His own design and allows it to develop on it's own WITH parameters, limits, and periodic points of contact along the way. The God of the Bible didn't invent Levi's or iPhones and doesn't have a favorite football team. Those are man's things. The idea of God controlling the color of my snot and the number of red lights I"m going to encounter this week is insane and is in conflict with The idea that my acceptance of God, my faith towards Jesus Christ, by whose faith I am saved - Is the important matters of my life as intended by God. Why WOULD a creator of the universe give a crap about what house I buy? The presence of God can be seen - and this is completely my own perception - in the interactions and actions of His creations. WE present the infinite magnitude of God, expressed through the endless life of thought and action we have. "In Christ" we would have the best life of all lives lived, if and when we followed the basic precepts taught in the Gospels. "Choice" is, I would describe it as the cuts on the diamond that make it's shape and cause the sparkle. THAT we can choose and God be over all is - to me - the most incredible thing about reality. It just whisks me off into a very pleasant place. />

How can I put this nicely....? I"m deleting this all out - enough. The topic is interesting, rottiegrrl, I see why you and others are scarce. :o/> I hope I contributed something to the mix, perhaps another time it can be discussed.

Understood. :dance:/> Everyone that I know, have known or read about or heard about, including myself, exemplifies - at times - the characteristics of the man and women in Genesis, the "Adam and Eve". Everyone, without exception except for one - Jesus Christ. Allowing for everyone that I haven't known or heard or read about there is some possibility for other exceptions, admittedly. No problem working within that range. Within that range, I would contend that the similarities are strong - where (one) knows something that is acceptably "right" and considered the correct action or path to choose - and then chooses not to do that, be it for reasons of their own or other reasons or choices they are offered. I'm not talking about a "there's no right or wrong" everyone's a love bug in their own skin, here - I mean Don't stick the knife in your leg, don't eat that plant, go easy on the pork, get some sleep and rest - And then not doing that - knife in the leg cause you're stupid, eat the crap have the heart attack, stay up and party and fall asleep at the wheel driving, Even the "soft" stuff - share some back of what we get because it makes sense to build relationships - naw, I"m keeping everything for myself, screw you and everyone else. Then you die and everyone admits they hated you and swap stories of how they tried to screw with you back all your life. Right - wrong, simple stuff. Don't do that Billy!!! You'll kill yourself!!! Naw, go on Billy - that'll be so COOL!!!! DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT!!! Billy does it, Billy's dead now. Poor Billy. That's mankind. Man tries and does pretty darned good much - shoot, most of the time. Except when he doesn't. Or you do and someone else is out kidnapping baby squirrels because they like to throw them off bridges and see how they look when they hit - they just like doing that. Those kinds of opposing forces and results - that's Genesis. Fall, push, quick kick in the butt, fork in the eye - I can call it a number of things. It happens every day, all the time. There was likely a first time it happened, somewhere in the long distant past, up and down the food chain. I don't think that's the way it was intended for a variety of reasons, or that it's the way it's going to end up for some of the same reasons.

"The Fall" is a historical fact, according to the Bible. Be these records metaphors or attempts to describe real events, that cycle is or was, what it are. There's a standard a 60 cycle AC hum that seems to be around, and of the possible choices, certain ones make for a clean signal so to speak, others provide interference, etc. etc. That scenario is very consistent in nature - nature may have a cleaner state where that is not the case but there's a very basic intrinsic essential aspect of things like the "hum" in AC, the need to get up and walk to move, the need to remember, the need to mark and measure time - all of these kinds of things make life as it is what it is - and there's always a need to learn, adjust, fix, maintain, water, plant, etc.etc. etc. With God there's no "variation" we're told, no shadow, God is constant. We're not - so call it a "fall" or a really bad day in Eden - there's a difference and the Bible speaks to that being due to man's actions in "Genesis". God's plan all along? Start with Adam and end with Jesus Christ? Yes, I'm with you. IMO - the Big answer to the Big question of why God did or does anything including - I don't know. The answer might ultimately be "Because, that's what I wanted to do". The bible speaks of God acting upon HIs "Pleasure", to me that's it. It's His thing, not mine. If I keep taking it back a step before, and back again, I come up with a "this is the way it is" and that comes back to a "is God - well, how did God come to be then and - why huh, say what?" I don't know. I think - and the Bible speaks to this thought in many places - that creation reflects the creator. God created after His own image. Choice is - appears to be - God's prerogative. God does as He wishes, as He wills. Says it all over the Bible. He is the great "I am". He's not Bob, the God, cutting a deal. For his creation to have the ability to choose would seem natural and normal then. As God is, so God does. A future is spoken of that will be the ultimate recognition by all of God's prominence and an acceptance or imposition of His will on all who agree and disagree, either way. We're not there yet, so I'm out of pocket on that.