Georgio Jessio

If we could stop bickering for a minute, I think it's pretty obvious Vic was an adulterer. Rape or drugs or re hash aside, he cheated on his wife. Can we all agree to that? As far as the re hash issue, there are always new people here. They need to know. So therefore it might come up again and again. PS Vic exposed himself to my mother. PPS in CF&X Vic danced around the question of adultry. How hard is it to say it's wrong? geez.

That's where Gates has it all wrong! He's still a nerd. Loy got to be a rock star (ummm ballerina) for Jesus WITH groupies! I stand corrected.

Right. The dirty tricks were his own. The "confrontation" (in theory) would have been about Loy being sloppy and careless and that it would eventually be exposed and cause TWI to fall. He would have been right, factually. Kind of like when one married guy catches his married buddy at the bar with another woman. In order to not alienate or threaten you might say something like "I don't care what you do, it's just that you live around the corner. If you're going to do that, take it out of town" when the message should be "Dude, you took a solemn vow in front of me and all of your family , etc" Vic was being ignored at the end so any confrontation would have fallen on deaf ears. And if the confrontation was based on a case of a dying man having an attack of morality, that would have been even more ignored. "crazy old man"

Based on what I saw before his death and what some of his family memebrs told me, VPW DID confront. The "word on the street" was that VPW was treated like a crazy old man. Knowing what I know about VPW, he was either a. trying to help the culture of corruption that he perfected stay alive and undetected. (Basicly Craig wasn't slick enough to pull it off like Vic could and Vic was trying to help him keep it going) or b. having feelings of guilt and treid to make a difference or "right the ship" thru his influence and "wisdom". (This would never have worked as Loy and co. knew dam well the ship was built on sand and enjoyed the perks of being "Elvis") or c. was a crazy old man. (I submit he was a crazy young man too) Regardless, he did confront people and ran to CG for selfish AND pratcical reasons. He knew Geer was loyal and he knew Craig was out of control. As crooked as I know Vic was, even he thought Loy's being a dancer was stupid on all levels. It took away from his job, it made him look silly and he sucked as a dancer. Picture Bill Gates or Billy Graham spending all of their time being a dancer. Makes zero sense.

"did someone molest him as a child or something?" It would be consistent with his behavior if that were indeed true. If that is the case then he too is a victim. But at what point do you stop forgiving the victim and start prosecuting the assailant? The mind boggles. :( All I know is I am breaking the chains, changing the pattern and moving on. PS where is stevie now? anyone???

Craig must have been on tour bashing Stevie because I wasn't at Word in Business or Atlanta! What a crappy thing to spend so much energy on. Even if the record WAS "off the word", there's no need to bash her and push away a talented person who had been such a huge part of TWI and such an influence on so many people. God Bless Stevie for having the guts to leave. Many of us would have put our tales between our legs, apologized and stayed like a mindless subordinate. I can't help but think that there was another motive to go after her so hard. I'd bet on it. Just when I thought I had run out of stories and memories, this Stevie thing pops up. It's amazing how much crap we put up with. They treated us like dogs. It makes me angry, still!

Takit was an attempt at having a postiive message for "the kids", without being over the top Christian Rock. Not alot of blatent "Jesus" messages, but it was positive. The 2nd album was even more secular with songs about the record industry (Tell Me More) , the evils of s&m (You're All Tied Up) and Media Manipulation (Would You Like To Be a Slave). It was good rock n roll. They pulled it off IMHO. I really thought most way prod was crappy but I did like Takit. They were smart enough to figure out that regular way prod was never going to impress young people who were listening to Van Halen. Those kids were never going to get excited about Branded or Joyful Noise. That was for the adults. I have the 2nd album on cassette but I MUST have the 7" vinyl they put out.

Yup, that's how I remember it too. There was a smaller backlash against Joe Fair and Ralph Graham's "One by One" , I also thought it was because they released it themselves. Craig was mad at, then later bragged about, the fact that Billy Joel's drummer Liberty Divito played on that tape. I witnessed him ranting about having an unbeliever playing on the album, then I also witnessed Craig bragging about how Joe and Ralph were blessed to have Liberty play for them. Mixed message, thanks Loy! Does anyone want to sell me their Takit on vinyl, or any other old Way records on vinyl?

Which reminds me of a story, that I must have told here before. I had a Boy George poster in my room in Rome City. I put it up to be a wise foot, alghough I was a fan of the music. I just wanted to ruffle feathers as I hated being there and was feeling abused. It was a lash out. Well, much to my dismay, Bob Moneyhands woke me up at 3 AM to rebuke the homo spirit from me. Cured me good. I now own the Culture Club box set and every record on vinyl and , as always was the case, I like girls. Thanks for nothing Bob, you're so in tune and deep!

As I recall, the pressure to SIT was so great that many (everybody IMHO but that's another topic and I've raised it before here and at waydale) faked it. It indeed was said, early on, that you could be saved without SIT but over time almost no one fit into the catagory of "saved but doesn't SIT". So in "understanding" or as an unwritten rule, if you didn't SIT you weren't saved. It was certainly considered a failure for the class leader if everyone didn't SIT. People were reamed for it. On another note that site about TWI had this interesting quote about homosexuality: "Also in 1994, President Martindale blamed the concentration of "practicing homosexuals" in the leadership Corps on "the homo logic" present in many Corps members. He criticized them for their lack of passion "about the truth of God's Word -- God's holy, magnificent Word -- as it stands totally against homosexuality in any form or fashion." 2 In a letter to Corps members, he implied that gays were no longer permitted to remain in the leadership Corps. However, if they honestly sought help for their condition, they could still "be a part of Way Ministry fellowships." Gays and lesbians were given biblical teaching about homosexuality, direct confrontation, and help to cure them of their behavior. They were expected to convert from homosexuality to heterosexuality; they were not allowed to remain celibate gays and lesbians with homosexual fantasies." I was long gone by then. How accurate is this statement? I ask because it seems to me that celibacy is a very Christian lifestyle (for the unmarried) This statement basicly says that you have to be hetrosexually active if you were once gay or you'll be kicked out. What kind of church kicks people out for NOT having sex? Good Lord!

He was talking about their hearts. I left in 87. I refer to 86 as "The fall of 86" POP started my having the guts to leave (I was 16). But one day we got a tape from HQ called something like "Tape to corps" and it was Geer talking crazy and giving ultimatums. That tape did it for me. But, honestly I was thinking about leaving for years before that. geer and Craig and VPW put the idea in my head by their actions and words. As happy I am to have made that decision, I STILL have dreams about going back to ROA. I loved ROA but it was about friends, music and fun, not TWI.

Whatever happened to Stevie Kay? She was great, then pi**ed off TWI brass with her "Written In The Stars" album. I made WOW Burgers with her all day at the ROA when I was 7 years old. I felt like I was hanging out with Patsy Cline, totally star stuck.

Two things that really bothered me but I "meekly" ignored. I mean, these things kept me up at night: Tithing. Old Testament is supposed to be for our learning. We're in a different administration, yet tithing was LAW. There was very little law taken from the Old Testament, we may have ignored the ten commandments but the part about giving TWI our money was LAW. In Christian Family and Sex VPW refuses to answer the "is adultry wrong" question. That's a no brainer and any minister shouldn't have any trouble answering that question. VPW dances around it. Those aren't hints, they are flaming problems that I reasoned away to the point that I convinced myself that Satan himself put those doubts in my head.

a. why post about it if you don't want to talk about it. b. there's already a topic here about this myspace group: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=9826 c. Truth didn't die when VPW died. Truth was revealed when he died.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't wash windows, I polish glass.

Indeed the guarding of info and unwillingness to answer questions is a red flag. What's the big secret?

Great point Bramble. I went to 15 schools is 12 years. I'm sure that's not what God wanted: for me to always be the new guy and have to start over all the time. TWI hates it when people have roots in a community because roots = knowledge = power. You can't be helpless and at their mercy if you have outside structure in your life. It's a technique.

There's still plenty of slander going on. My friend couldn't go to my very recent wedding because I'm SEED. I had no idea I was seed, so I'm glad it came up. Rosie was a huge part of the problem. I wouldn't even consider visiting a fellowship as long as she's in charge. I know who and how she is. Real change comes at the top. But at this point they've had NOTHING but corrupt leaders in their entire history. Why would anyone want to stick around and fight for that. What's to fight for. The whole thing is built on a mountain of sin. Think about that for a minute: not one honest leader in 60 years! As far as I can see, the kinder and gentler routine is more of a corporate decision than a spiritual one. if they could control and micro manage every aspect of people's lives and keep membership growing, they would. They HAD TO become kinder or they'd be in the toilet right now. Talk about fruit, TWI is so fruitful that membership has steadily diminished for 2 decades. Face it, look at TWi for what it is. We know the bad stuff, what's the good stuff again?

I relate to Cheif on every word. Have we spoken? DO I know you? A couple of lifers from mini corps on up. Hit me with a PM if you so desire!

Exectatly. They're missing 2/3 of "doctrine, reproof and correction." An apology would be nice. She should do it publicly and she should call The Pollings personally. Apparently, changing the doctrine is a magic trick that erases the past.

I could be wrong but philosopher George Santayana is the one who said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

I would tell them to run because these issues aren't all in the past. I would question mych of the stuff they learned in the class. I would tell them that there are less invasive ways to study the Bible. I would tell them that there is nothing about TWI that is special or even biblical. i would tell them the corruption starts at the top and spreads downward. i would tell them to run. Face it, the whole ministry is built on sand. I mean, seriously, what part of my statement did you not agree with other than the part about staying with TWI no matter what happens because they made you feel blessed. The pervert part? The plagerism? The faulty teachings? I'm trying to figure out where the good part about TWI is. remember, Roselie is one of them. Give these kids a break? I wish someone showed me when i was 16. Worse yet, people did try to show me but I blindly defended TWI even when it made me sick to do so. Revert back to my origional post. These kids are afraid to be wrong. I was one of them, I had alot of friends in the same boat. Now that we're all out we all have the same feeling: we were afraid to leave. Cults like to make you feel that way. it's a technique. I6 keeps the money coming in. Not only does history repeat itself but those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Well in this case the teachings were wrong, the research was stolen, the top two guys were sex maniacs and pure BS artists. The baby drowned in the bathwater. When that happens you have a funeral and try to put your life back together.

I don't need a chill pill. It just seemed like a sarcastic question. Sorry if it wasn't. Correcting doctrine is more than fine. But the doctrine they corrected was just so absurd that it amazes me that a) people believed it and b) no one spoke up, they just waited to be told what to believe. It astonishes me that it was passed off as old and part of Loy's administration and it's all good now because it's been changed. We're not talking about a groundbreaking change here. The belief was just stupid. I also see very little reproof. Iif "the past" is irrelevent, then they don't have to asnwer for their sins. It's old news, after all.

The age of the Donna quote isn't the issue. The issue is that the potential for death supposedly existed as a result of one leaving TWI. That had to be "corrected"! So, now the death rule isn't true. That's fabulous. Doesn't matter though because the point is: Donna, in typical way fashion , spouted whatever hateful thing she was taught because thinking for yourself is not allowed in TWI. The quote is clearly hateful ,dishonest, manipulative and it doesn't take a genius to see that. Yet the doctirine was corrected only after the "narcasistic" (quoted from the myspace board) leader was removed. (for infractions that had nothing to do with the death rule) That speaks to the thought process of those deeply involved in TWI. I hear alot has changed about TWI. That only tells me that they have had alot wrong for many years. Yet the only defense wayfers have is to discredit any critisism and personal experience as "the past". Newsflash: The past matters. The people who run the show now are from that past. They, like Donna, cannot tell you what's right or wrong till someone "corrects" it for them. All of our pasts matter in life , one way or the other. It's why you need a reference to get a job. It's why there's not statute of limitations on murder. It's why God has to forgive our sins. The past is where you get your reputation. When it comes to rape and stealing money and ruining lives in the name of God, the past matters. The people who run the show now were there and looked away. They shouldn't get a pass on that, they should not be in power. When I found out certain things I went right to leadership. Of course, they were in on it so nothing was done. Nothing was done so I left. Where was Roselie when Loy was going off? She was there and looked the other way. Is that the past? Why doesn't that matter? You can correct doctrine all you want, it doesn't change anything because the head of the body is still infested.