Thomas Loy Bumgarner

John Shroyer is involved with Christian Family

Fellowship in Indiana area.

Looks like John Brown of FL and his Way Family Tables got the boot as Limb/region leader, just because I informed him of John Hendricks death.

Maybe Harve will now join one of the splinter groups like CFF or CR&F, or Walter Cummins. BTW, has anyone heard anything about Sara Kathryn Gigou or John Paul Wierwille recently?

Just wondering. My sympathies to Dorethea Kipp Wierwille and her Alzeimhers condition, because my mother is in the last stages of that horrible disease.

John had authored 4 books entitled Easy to Believe(based on The Bible Tells Me So),God's Healing Word(PFAL and How To Enjoy the Bible),

Power from on High(Receiving the Holy Spirit and Word Studies on the Holy Spirit/The Giver and His Gifts), God's way to Prosperity(Christians Should Be Prosperous), revisions of Victor Paul Wierwille, Ethelbert Bullinger, Ruben Archer Torrey and others writings.

HC, just checked your church in Dayton and noticed it offers Alpha/Questions of Life, a much better foundational class than Power for Abundant Living, which is similar to what Belle was saying in an earlier post on this thread. Our church uses this class with The United Methodist Church's Beginnings/Along The Way (no pun intended). And yes, we do the Holy Spirit

day on Saturday with optional SIT. TLB

Yes, that's my real name. I was involved with The Way from August 1973 when Virginia"Ginger"

Douglass(now Ott) spoke to me while I was watching the animated Star Trek cartoon in the Student lounge @ ECU where I was a freshman who invited me back to The Way Home there in Greenville,NC, but being a genlteman and proably a fool not to persue her sexually, I later learned about a coffeehouse which I erroneously thought was a dance club and got to meet Doug Emerson. I later took the PFAL class while a student at ASU in Boone, but was during the summer and held in Lenoir where I lived with my parents, my father being a Lutheran pastor. To make the story short, I went NCWOW in

1976 meeting Patricia Fetner from Sanford whom

I had a major crush love-wise and might have in another situation married. After ROA 1979, I returned home only in less than a month had 10%

collapsed left lung and was hospitalized for 3

days with no visitors, letters, or phone calls

from anyone in TWI about my health (maybe revelation manifestations weren't working that day), yet many denominational clergy stopped by to visit me , who were my father's colleagues in

Lenoir. In December that same year, I wrote a letter to the editor of The Charlotte Observer

about an op-ed piece about TWI(which was negative), so I tried to defend them, but got severally reprimanded by the Limb leader saying

HQ did not need this sought of attention, so I freely left, although in 1985 while living in

Burlington, NC I was informed Of Victor Paul Wierwille's death(passing away/falling asleep).

Only in the last year have I tried to find out

what has happened and unfortunately, it has turned out to be a nightmare far worse than I ever knew. I returned to college, finishing up at Lenoir-Rhyne College for a BA in music in 1982, and more recently for a 2 year Sacred Music certificate program on liturgy, hymnody,

etc. I presently am Organist/Director of Music/

Parish Cantor at Holy Cross Lutheran Church in

Lincolnton, NC where I have an adult chancel

choir, accompany a youth/children's choir, conduct a 3 octave handbell/choirchime ensemble,

play drumset/percussion/keyboard and autoharp for our Contemporary Praise Ensemble "Justified By Faith". Active in American Guild of Organists

(local historian), Hymn Society of United States

and Canada, and member of the Association of Lutheran Church Musicians. And as Paul Harvey

would say, that's the rest of the story.

I would say read Karl Kahler's book The Cult that Snapped. Also The Wierwille family, starting with old Papa Ernest was disfunctional, He being an alcoholic and spouse/

child abuser to Emma, Ruben, Otto, Harry, Sevillia, Lydia, and Victor. The last having his father's bad temper, causing him to hide in the nearby woods out of fear(not a protestant

St. Francis of Assisi in Whiteside's book).

Dear Mark, I happen to be a Lutheran who was involved with TWI from 1973-79, and returned to a more sane form of Christianity. Martin Luther

was a Roman Catholic priest who wanted to reform

a few mistakes and would have never left The Holy Church if Vatican 2 and the renunciations

of condemnations(occuting in 1960's and recent October 31,2001) had happened in his lifetime. John Paul II no longer saw him as heretic or

blasphemer. Thomas

Dear excathedra, You don't happen to have their address by any chance, do you? You can reply by private post at holycross@charter.net . Thomas PS see new email address in previous post.

UNC-Chapel Hill professor Bart Erlhman has written a book called "Lost Scriptures" which includes Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Peter, 3rd

Corinthians, etc. Also, thereare 4 books of Maccabeus, Sirach, Judith, Tobit, "Lost Books of Eden", all coming from Hag Nadgi caves in Egypt. Also Dead Sea Scrolls include War between

Sons of Righteousness against the powers of Darkness. Also, Roy you aren't related by any chance to Hal Love from Charlotte,NC are you? Thomas

Dear Mike, please for give my earleir outburst

against you. I know it was not very Christlike

behavior. The reason I gave books and chapters

in an earleir post was that I do not have permission to quote those materials on the internet. Yes, with exception of Lamsa and Errico, all other authors do beleive in the trinity and the deity of Jesus Christ. However, if you would open yourself and likewise Galen, to exam these books, you might be surprised how much similarity there is to PFAL, and it is done in a nonintimidating manner. Almost storytelling and done before live audiences with

humor. We run these classes free of cost, free meals before these teachings, free childcare. No

pre-registration fees and In case of Alpha/Beginings, we allow new people to come in for the first 5 sessions before we close them off. We have had as manner as 60 and as few as 5

people(first timers), and run the class twice a year. WE also do Servant Evangelism events such

as free carwashses, free water bottles at busy

intersections with an attached note about our

congregation's ministries and gives directions to our church; and mowing lawns, cleanong out gutters, and shoveling snow off their driveways/

sidewalks. It is called charity/love/agape with

no intention of receiving money. Also, we have done PowerSurge from Lutheran pastor Mike Folley

of Prince of Peace Lutheran Church in Burnsville

MN(just south of St. Paul). Finally, I originally sold all the colaterals while I waS

living in Burlington,NC which I am sorry to say

got into the hands of J.L. Williams who wrote a

book on TWI and some of that information got to

John Judes. Only a year ago did I start buying over the "net" 2nd hand copies of Wierwille's books, including 4 out of the 5 edited posthumously by Chris Geer from UK. So it has been almost 12 years since I had seen the materials. So take a chance and see if I am wrong on my conclusions and if you detect major

errors, heresies, and blasphemies, then feel free to correct me either on this thread or do

private email. But step out of the boat of your prejudices and walk on the water of truth to the living Way, Jesus Christ(not the Ohio organization). Grace, mercy and peace to you all

from God our Father and his Son, Christ Jesus.

In His Service. TLB PS check out MY Story

Thread under the poll about length involvement

in TWI

I was involved with TWI from late August 1973

(though I heard a member from Morganton in spring of '73 during lunchtime at Lenoir High School outside on the front lawn 2 different times before being run off by the principal) to

late December 1979 when I tried to defend them in a letter to The Charlotte Observer when I was

reprimanded by the Limb leader in a personal letter for drawing attention which HQ did not need. Also, that fall in September I had a collapsed left lung (only 10%) and was hospitalized for 3 days, yet no one from The Way ever received revelation knowledge that I was ill nor ever visted me. Yet clergy from many

denominations did stop by, visit and prayed for me. and as they say, that's the rest of the story. So Galen, Mike Raf, and others, know you

know more about me. I am organist/director of music at Holy Cross Lutheran Church in Lincolnton, NC where I direct a chancel choir,

conduct 3 octave handbell group, and play percussion for our Contemporary Praise Ensmble

"Justified By Faith". Also, I am a member of The American Guild of Organists,Association of

Lutheran Church Musicians, Hymn Society of US &

Canada, United Church of Christ National Musicians Network, and active in The Moravian

Music Foundation. Thomas PS visit my church's website which is www.holycrosselca.org and see pictures of me playing organ and drumset, as well as discussions on Alpha and 40 Days of Purpose classes. TLB

Mike and Galen, if Power for Abundant Living is

so great class, then take each section/chapter,

either live or video and then allow the group discuss what they saw or heard to get feedback, and don't correct them in front of others. Instead, say "that''s an interesting point or observation. I wonder why I didn't see that",

then privately in love and tenderness, show them from scripture where they are wrong. But,

remember that they are seekers and don't know

the Bible, and for heavens sake allow a variety of translations, not just King James. Thomas

Mike, I quoted from 3 different materials, not counting Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life. Interestingly, Ruben Archer Torrey, who was 1st

Dean of Academics and later 2nd President of Dwight Moody Bible Institute taught Wednesday

crucifixation and Saturday Ressurrection back in

late 1870's. You spoke of Orientalisms by Pillai

and Lamsa,not counting Errico, Charles Freeman,

Howaed Voss, and Victor Matthews, plus Ralph

Gower(who revised Fred Wight). Also, you forgot

Bullinger, Kenyon, Smith Wigglesworth, Peale,

Schuller, Derek Prince, Lester Sumrall, Albert

Cliffe, Albert Benjamin Simpson, E.Stanley Jones

Howard Carter, Hagin, Copeland, Jerome Edwin

Stiles, Brian George Leonard, Mosley,etc. At least John Brown shows more respect to me, although I do disagree with him, but I respect

what he believes. Yet, you pout, whine and cry

acting like a spoiled brat if I challenge you to think for yourself. Maybe Wierwille should have smacked your face and ex-communicated you for heresy and for not living a Christ-like

attitude.If Jesus Christ is not God, then neither was Wierwille. Check out Karl Kahler's book. Also Did you know that Ernst Wierwille was

an alcoholic and beat both Emma and all the children. That's why young Victor Paul went into the woods, to escape his father's beating,

not because he was a modern Francis of Assisi

preaching to the trees and animals. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but didn't VPW say that the love of God was "tough love". Gang ,sorry for straying from the topic, but I don't take kindly to fools. TLB

Dear Mike, Galen, and others.I will give the chapters from Alpha/Questionsof Life: Christianity-Boring, Untrue and Irrelvant? Why did Jesus Die, How can I be sure of my Faith,

Why and how should I read the bible,, how do I pray, how does God guide us, Who and what is the Holy Spirit, how can I be filled with the spirit, how can I resist evil, why and how do I tell others, does God heal today, what is the church? From Beginings?Along The Way are the following chapters: So, iis this all there is,

Who is Jesus and why should I care, Can I trust God, How does God speak to me,how do I speak to God, why should I join any group that will have me as a member? Neil Anderson's Beta is based on the following 2 books and chapters of Victory over the darkness, and the Bondage breaker:You can't live beyond what you believe,

the renewed mind,living by the spirit, Stand Firm, accussed by the father of lies, danger of deception, and finally Steps to freedom in Christ. Try Alphausa.com, Abingdon/Cokesbury,and

Harvest House for more info. Thomas Loy Bumgarner

Mike, there are DVD classes that attempt to teach Scriptures similar but better than PFAL.

Nicky Gumbel, a british Anglican priest has Alpha(which does include 3 sections on Holy Spirit and optional SIT) ; United Methodist pastor Rob Weber does Beginings ; and Neil Anderson has Beta(sort of Advanced Class) based on Victory over the Darkness and The Bondage

Breaker. Actually, they are far superior.

Actually, they now call themselvesThe Way Christian Ministries of Scotland and have a website. Leader is Roger Stanley and have converted the mansion as a college and a chapel in Edinbourgh. Also, The Way of Australia is now called Another Way Ministry and is located in New Zealand with limbs in Australia(Peter Wade disaasociated himself from the group),

Phillipines, and Paupa New Gueinna(?).

If you wish to email me directly, it's holycross

@charter.net or you may write me at 1200 24th

Avenue,N.E. Eastview Acres/Heights, Hickory,

NC 28601-1640. I won't give you my phone number

here, although I have Caller ID and Tele-Zapper

(used against telemarketeers who annoy me no end). Thomas PS new email is bumgarnerthomas@yahoo.com so church computer isn't overloaded. TLB

Looking for Pat Fetner, formerly of Sanford,NC,

twin sister to Linda, and married her twig leader; Ginger Douglass of Charlotte,NC whom I met my freshman year at East Carolina; and Ellie Ray Allen and his wife Lori, who were my twig leaders at Appalachian State in Boone,NC.

Also, Bill Fletcher and his wife Ginny Kirk.

Contact Thomas Loy Bumgarner,in care of internet

address.