Rocky

27 minutes ago, chockfull said:

I mean you would think that Gods only job is to travel around and do miracles for crackpots to get them to start new cults. 

Good one!

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Was no one available to proofread this letter before mailing?

God forbid he would allow anyone to change anything he writes. 

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

This letter could be used for an apophatic understanding of leadership and persuasive discourse.

Yikes! 

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

"Their words and their convoluted explanations are simply a pretense for their greed and malicious intent."

Irony indeed! And brazen emotional projection. 

5 hours ago, penworks said:

LCM letter 1990.pdf 413.28 kB · 6 downloads

Attached is an old Way document: A form letter from Craig Martindale in 1990 to all Way Corps. Weirdly, I was already OUT. Escaped HQ in 1987. He was well aware of that and of my unmendable break from TWI!

But of course we know these letters were sent out to everyone on the Corps list without consideration for details like whether or not they'd repudiated TWI. LOL.

 

In that letter, Loy invokes the name of Jesus Christ... but his attitude shows something very different. I didn't sense any willingness on his part to serve. 

5 hours ago, penworks said:

'It’s a bug, it's a feature, and it's the whole history of [hu]mankind. It's nothing new. You know, the history of humanity is oppression of people, of a certain class with money and wealth or swords and spears oppressing other people, making them slaves either physically or mentally. It's the history of mankind.'"

Seems like important justification to me. To all readers on GSC, TELL YOUR STORY.

5 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

while keeping barriers to limit exposure to twi brass and the like.

Often referred to as emotional boundaries... which Victor and Loy rarely, as I understand, understood, respected, or honored. 

On 2/17/2023 at 9:50 AM, skyrider said:

Oftentimes, we hear when twi-followers finally decide to exit TWI..... they seek out a splinter group.  Seemingly, deep down they must still cling to the twi-mantra that victor paul wierwille was chosen by God to lead them to the "rightly-divided Word" or some equivalent of the same.  Clearly, the "truth of pfal" is sound [they think].... it's just that LCM, Rosalie and Donna screwed it all up.  Pick any one of them as the *fall guy*...... but NOT wierwille.

So, off they go to a splinter group... lulled into another loop around the block.  How long will they stay in this cycle?

There are numerous questions I could articulate about Victor Wierwille based entirely on my experience and observations of him directly, and especially with his protégé, Loy C Martindale... while reflecting on THIS ancient wisdom. Btw, there are relevant, related scriptures in Proverbs that suggest this nugget from outside the Bible is at least as wise as those two goons (the first two presidents of the corporation).

Further, I would challenge former followers of Victor and/or Loy to honestly decide whether Marcus Aurelius had more godly wisdom (and courage) the either of them.

22 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Yes, God requires forgiveness by his followers when they have been wronged.

I seem to recall you not being so concerned with what God requires of people. Am I wrong? If so, what changed?

6 hours ago, chockfull said:

Let’s look at this forgiveness topic from another perspective.  The BODummies recently sent out a “come on home” postcard to a certain select group in their list of former member/slaves.  They did not send out the postcard to the entire list.  Most notably they don’t like people who post on this site and will never invite them back.  On this site we don’t blame their victims but help them recover.  We don’t excuse their immorality we call them out on it.  We have done no evil here.  Why can’t they forgive us for telling the truth about them?  Why aren’t people hounding them to forgive everyone who left for understandable reasons?  They use worldly designated “statuses” on their records to help them not forgive.  And most of those mark and avoids like the RNR group were people trying to help them right the ship.

I think some people should take their forgiveness guilt trip and shove it right back down the throat of the people demanding it of them but not doing it themselves.  That’s what I do.

 I very much appreciate emotionally probing and salient questions/declarations like those you include in this comment.

8 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Some interesting stuff there.

But I looked at an old WC notes section, a rant from Craig in about 2006, and I just wanted to yell back at him about all the stuff that was WRONG in his haha "teaching" or rant or whatever you call it.  How contradictory in so very many ways.  How overbearingly bullying.  How demanding everything was and how it demeaned EVERY believer.

Seriously unhinged.  

 

 

Not surprising I was so f'ked up when the M&A'd me.  Several years of these rants and no ability to say, hey mate, ease up a bit!

The documents that I glanced at on the old site enraged me.  (Possibly even with cult-brain, they'd have pi$$ed me off badly.)  Maybe, sometimes it's good to look back at where we came from, and realise just what prisons we have been released from .

I'm so glad you (WE) have gotten through and healed from that emotional and spiritual abuse. 

Resilience

Thanks again, chockful! 

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

Yeah Craig’s letters are also a real gem.  Especially his rants about homos.  He is very unhinged.

I thought all those documents used to be around this site somewhere in a documents section free for all to access.  VPWs are all in an archive somewhere on the web.  Mods are they still here?  I think I could go to the Wayback machine internet site archive and retrieve all the docs.  They include letters and lawsuits.

These series of letters to the “Way Corps” from TWI Presidents really highlight their thinking, control, and running of leadership programs.  You see BITE model material all throughout.

 

BITE model Responding to Authoritarian Cults and Extreme Exploitations: A New Framework to Evaluate Undue Influence

Wayback machine internet

Thanks, chockful, for this info and insight. 

Btw, I think I have some of those corps letters on my google drive if anyone needs access to them.

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Boy, were those Corps letters a bad look! So revealing. No wonder they’ve been removed from public view.

40-years ago, there wasn't very much societal understanding of emotional intelligence... at least that I knew of. Daniel Goleman's first book, Emotional Intelligence, Why It Can Be More Important Than IQ wasn't published until 1995. As far as I can tell, there seems to have been little social awareness of the concept before that.

IOW, yeah it WAS a bad look. But who of us realized that reality back in the 1970s?

I suppose it would be silly to consider that 1995 publication and the proliferation of the internet to have been a coincidence in the correlation to exposing Victor, Loy, and Victor's legacy private interpretation ministry beginning with Trancenet/Trancechat in (or about) 1998.

On 8/31/2023 at 8:29 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

I would suggest the the same. Any concept of God is born of and put together by human thought.

Totally!

I think back to the blurb I wrote about Charlene's memoir,

“Undertow is a gift to young people and their families who want to understand the inner workings of fundamentalist cults. Charlene Edge’s experience parallels much of my own twelve years as a follower of Victor Paul Wierwille’s ministry. Undertow sheds light on the decisions, questions, and longings that she encountered, and ultimately worked her way through. In the words of Canadian author Matshona Dhliwayo, ‘Books are kinder teachers than experience.’ May Undertow be a kinder teacher to you than Charlene’s seventeen years in The Way International were to her.” —Steve Muratore, publisher of award-winning political blog the Arizona Eagletarian

1 hour ago, Charity said:

Yes, I believed them.  Should I have - in hindsight, no.  One ramification was critical thinking went out the door because of...

Indeed, all we EVER have is hindsight to evaluate our choices. No matter how much foresight we might think/believe we have, it's still a risk, calculated or not, to follow someone like Victor.

Isn't that the value of history and even more importantly for people who may follow in our footsteps, memoir?

IF we write a memoir, it might reach someone to allow them, telepathically (as Stephen King describes it) to live in or imagine themselves in your shoes, in your path. In which case those readers might be able to "look back" to evaluate the risk to them.

Did Victor ever have, after "developing the PFLAP class series," any such Mars Hill experiences?

Did he ever publicly encounter philosophers (thinkers) and hold forth his version of the Gospel to them?

How did or would have such an event have looked/sounded in the moment?

Did or would Victor have angrily ranted at them like he did on numerous occasions with "his corps" trainees?

I can envision him meeting with local chambers of commerce informally at Adolph's to hold forth... but in such a setting would he have held their attention?

Or perhaps in town council meetings or a chamber of commerce to proudly announce plans for the Rock of Ages, thereby soliciting logistical support for supplying food for tens of thousands of people for a week or two, and other infrastructure needs, like water and sewer.

In my mind, that presents a totally different interaction dynamic where Victor could elicit cooperation because of the financial/economic benefit the broader community would gain.

12 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

He couldn't even tolerate simple questions after a class. Some teacher.

Here's a simple thought experiment for readers on this thread,

Victor fancied himself as MOGFODAT, man of god for our day and time. Since the archetype seemingly was Paul the Apostle, how do each of us imagine Paul conducted himself in discussion sessions on Mars Hill? 

The biblical significance of Mars Hill is that it is the location of one of Paul’s most important gospel presentations at the time of his visit to Athens during his second missionary journey (Acts 17:16–34). It was where he addressed the religious idolatry of the Greeks who even had an altar to the “Unknown God.” It was this altar and their religious idolatry that Paul used as a starting point in proclaiming to them the one true God and how they could be reconciled to Him. Paul’s sermon is a classic example of a gospel presentation that begins where the listeners are and then presents the gospel message in a logical and biblical fashion. In many ways it is a classic example of apologetics in action. Paul started his message by addressing the false beliefs of those gathered there that day and then used those beliefs as a way of presenting the gospel message to them.

We know that when Paul arrived in Athens he found a city “given over to idols” (Acts 17:16). In his usual manner, Paul began presenting the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. He started by “reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers” (Acts 17:17) and then also proclaimed the gospel “in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there” (Acts 17:17). While at the marketplace he encountered some Epicurean and Stoic philosophers (Acts 17:18) who, having heard Paul proclaim the resurrected Jesus Christ, wanted to learn about “this new doctrine” he was teaching, so they “brought him to the Areopagus” to hear more from him (Acts 17:19–20).

We know from history that the Epicurean philosophers generally believed that God existed but that He was not interested or involved with humanity and that the main purpose of life was pleasure. On the other hand, the Stoic philosophers had the worldview that “God was the world’s soul” and that the goal of life was “to rise above all things” so that one showed no emotional response to either pain or pleasure. These groups and others with their dramatically opposing worldviews loved to discuss and debate philosophy and religion. Intrigued by what they considered Paul’s “babblings” about the resurrection of Christ, they brought him to the Areopagus where the Athenians and foreigners “spent their time in nothing else but to tell or hear some new thing” (Acts 17:21).

As mentioned earlier, Paul’s presentation of the gospel is a great example for us, both as a pattern for how Paul identified with his audience and as an example of apologetics in action. His connection with his audience is seen in how he begins addressing those gathered at the Areopagus. He begins with the observation that they were “very religious,” based on the fact that they had many altars and “objects of worship” (Acts 17:23) including an altar to “the Unknown God.” Paul uses that altar to introduce them to the one true God and the only way of salvation, Jesus Christ.

His apologetic method and his knowledge that they did not even know what God is really like leads him to go back to Genesis and to the beginning of creation. Having a completely wrong view of God, those gathered that day needed to hear what God really was like before they would understand the message of the gospel. Paul begins explaining to them the sovereign God who created all things and gives life and breath to all things. He continues to explain that it was God who created from one individual all men and nations and even appointed the time and boundaries of their dwelling (Acts 17:26). His message continues as he explains the closeness of God and their need to repent of their rebellion against Him. Paul completes his message by introducing them to the One before whom they would all stand one day and be judged—Jesus Christ, whom God had raised from the dead.

Of course, many in the audience scoffed at the idea that Christ was crucified and rose from the dead on the third day because the idea of the resurrection to the Greeks was foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:23). Yet a few believed what Paul said and joined him.

What happened on Mars Hill is important because of the many lessons that can be learned, not only from how Paul presented the gospel and presented a biblical worldview, but also in the varied responses he received.

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

How many of you ever experienced a last session of the class where any questions of substance were asked or answered?  None for me.

I postulate that this is a clear example of brainwashing techniques.

I observed no such Q/A sessions either. Indeed, it certainly is somehow related to the brainwashing to which we willingly but not knowingly subjected ourselves and each other. Thanks for your insight.

3 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

What he knew was that if he could get others to believe him, he could make a materially successful life for himself. And he was right. He knew that that he knew that he knew if anyone ever found out the truth, he would be done. That was his greatest fear - being found out for who and what he really was.

Perhaps he KNEW on a subconscious level. That could account for why he could never tolerate disagreement or anyone showing him up or exposing his bullshonta. 

1 hour ago, Stayed Too Long said:

This was Rocky’s initial response when I posted about forgiving VPW and LCM and there was no concern about going off topic. In 4) Rocky thanked me for reading and watching the video.
Even as chockfull and I have been going back and forth for several days no concern was shown until today. 

Your point is? 

I hope you're not offended that I redirected the focus of the thread I started. I had a couple of days to chew on it. I still thank you for reading and offering your thoughts.

Eventually it occurred to me that you missed what I was getting at and therefore I needed to clarify. 

Please pardon me for being fallible. 

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

I have zero interest in starting a thread on forgiveness.

Completely understandable.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

But you do seem to get a charge out of telling me I’m wrong.

I apologize for giving you that impression.

Bottom line is STL missed my point, pretty much altogether. I simply wanted to refocus the thread.

Do what you want, reply or don't, as you wish. 

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

Is this what you mean - when did they start believing their own lies?

Is it possible they could have actually believed it? Is it possible any of us actually did trust them, should we have?

What might the implications or ramifications be one way or the other?

Things like that.

21 minutes ago, waysider said:

Hi everyone. This is waysider. Been a while since I posted. Had an accident on the interstate. I'll be back eventually. Drive safely please. Pay attention in construction zones, please. 

 

 

YIKES! Glad you're still alive and kicking. Thanks for letting us know.