Rocky

You dont think that the litigious happy Way International wouldnt come after these 'offenders' if that was the case and they had a leg to stand on legally?

They know very well what is being said here.

They're not complaining-at least not with any real teeth in it.

They'd love to shut this place down, but chances are they've weighed the risks of legal action and know that there is a very high likelihood that they would lose..In which case their whole organization would be totally f*cked as their founders record would be on public display

so they let it slide because they as well know that its true

These are among those NUMEROUS reasons I mentioned above. Excellent point Mstar.

Not the point , the argument was lacking in truth dead people have the right to not be libeled in many states.

Au contraire... it IS the point.

Unless you can get a law enforced, in a practical sense, there IS no law.

There are numerous reasons you cannot/could not/would not be able to get such a law enforced. Yes, NUMEROUS.

It obviates your point. In no uncertain terms.

A nice sidenote to Hamilton's feats is his pitcher Clay Counsel, who is 71 years old. This was his second trip to Yankee Stadium, according to Mike and Mike. The first time being there for Don Larsen's perfect game in '56.

The did mention this during the first round... The guy was amazing. I wonder if his shoulder's sore today...

Idaho

Libeling either the living or the dead is a crime. Idaho Code § 18-4801 (2005).

Colorado

"(1) A person who shall knowingly publish or disseminate, either by written instrument, sign, pictures, or the like, any statement or object tending to blacken the memory of one who is dead, or to impeach the honesty, integrity, virtue, or reputation or expose the natural defects of one who is alive, and thereby to expose him to public hatred, contempt, or ridicule, commits criminal libel.

Kansas

"(a) Criminal defamation is communicating to a person orally, in writing, or by any other means, information, tending to expose another living person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule; tending to deprive such person of the benefits of public confidence and social acceptance; or tending to degrade and vilify the memory of one who is dead and to scandalize or provoke surviving relatives and friends.

Have you contacted state's attorneys in Idaho, Colorado and Kansas to let them know you have some folks for them to prosecute?

Or do you have some other plan to see to it that these "criminals" (here at GSC) are brought to justice?

Cmon Rocky, don't they need 4 to make a twig? Can't you just this once accomodate Thomas Loy's fantasy? Seriously Thomas, get a grip, we have covered this before with you!

~HAP

Thanks for the humor Hap!

However, in a PM, Bumgarner told me he has had me on ignore, along with those others... so, apparently he's making that statement without even reading things that ANY of those he named had posted.

Wonderful recovery happening!

He's out of ICU, drain tube out, taking steps!!

http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/samschoenheit

Feeding tube also out! Eating food on his own...

(no doubt soon to be dancing)!

Was it earlier on this thread where someone asked if it was acceptible for a person to have multiple screen names for this site, even if it was not for the purpose of getting around a suspension? I believe Pawtucket responded with a simple, direct, "NO."

It might have been on the Where's Bumpy thread... anyway, I just saw that there are several people with birthdays today (July 14). Three of them might be the same person.

Hills Bro is Hills Bro. But he has said before that his business is as a carpet cleaning contractor. That could be the same as a "ProRug Sucker"... and if his first name (or nickname) is "Jimbo" then it's possible all three of them are the same person.

I don't know if that's the case, but it sure looks like it could be...

IF the man on the bus was who I think he may have been - he was raked over the coals pretty good and lost a lot. In reading your story, I would not say he was blameless, but I think post-TWI he may have turned into one of the good guys.

Adversity can do that to a person!

Thanks you abi; now I see.

Yes it takes a long time to recover from something like this. I know I'm not finished healing from it. It turned my husband off God completely. My son tried to reconcile with his wife but they just couldn't get it together after this. It wasn't a matter of trust, my son says his (then) wife had her whole head so twisted around by all this, that it seemed to him she couldn't consistently continue with rational thoughts and processes.

Even as much as 2 months afterwards, she was still roaming around from room to room thinking she was on vacation somewhere. It wasn't real to her that she needed to start looking in the paper for a job. She just could not get it together. They found a small apartment not too far from where we lived, and they went off to see it. They took separate cars because she was going to look in on her mother afterward (so she said) but she was not seen again (by him)! Shortly after this, she went home to our house and packed her things while I was at work and lived with her mother for quite a while.

Her father told my son to let her go - - she was so much like her mother - - and who else would know?

It took a long long time for him to start coming out of it. I think he recovered faster than I did.

Now, he's remarried to a wonderful young woman who really loves him. He makes an excellent living and really enjoys his life.

Wow... I'm so sorry you guys had to go through that. Dooj is soooooo right, there were MANY victims, not just the women seduced into adultery by malignant narcissists and their self-justifying false doctrines.

And I'm VERY glad your son was able to regain his life, much better than it had been before.

HEY!

Any of you guys ever heard of this kid, Josh Hamilton? :blink: (just kidding, I know Tom stRanger has had him in his sights this year)

28 HRs in round one!?

Holy Moly!...Are telling me that Whitedove was never in the corps, never went wow and never left his area???

ROFLMAO!...

He really IS clueless!...and you cause all this commotion and you have no idea what you're talking about?...You're a man with a paper arse.

It would seem to me that the only one who could say whether WD had been in the WC or not is WD...

This is NOT first hand testimony.

Let's get (regain) some perspective here friends.

To Janis Lang aka Lucy Van Pelt: Honey, you along with Oldiesman(Phil), Rocky, White Dove, Mike are the ones suffering from Bi-Polar/mania depressed and are not racing reality. I am sorry that your brother raped you and that you blame your parents for not protecting you nor having your brother arrested and treated as an adult pedophile(even if he was younger than 18) sent to criminal court and charged, yet you claim your father would have had the Ohio and Federal Government press charges against Wierwille, Martindale, and Geer(plus Donna and Rosie) had VPW even laid hands on you(maybe even murder them). Even asking God to murder your brother is sick and evil. Yet you claim to have eventually forgiven him. Janis, if you do not publicly ask Dot, Rascal, Excathedra here in this forum to forgive your outburst, you will be enjoying my ignore list.As for Bumpy/Grumpy from Paris/Algeria, you never were offensive to me.

Look, I don't know you from Adam (or Eve)... And it's quite obvious you don't know me. It's also obvious you don't READ many posts here. But you've been corrected more than once on where I stand regarding wierwille. STOP it.

Or would you just rather we all have the impression that you are a moron?

Hiway, did you catch any of the Angels/stRanger games on TV last week? We took the series from the White Sox yesterday by winning a game in which the WS got 22 hits!

Now THAT'S exciting baseball!

Is Ryan Howard soon a free agent?

Good grief-I hope he stays with the Phillies. I can only imagine the money thrown at him though, so Philly may as well get ready. Sometimes you wonder what the point is for most teams.

I only caught a little of the Angels, stRangers series, but those guys from Texas are looking tough. As usual, the pitching may keep them from the top.Plus that is one strong division. Now if they were in the NL west they'd be looking at the magic number pretty soon.

Hey! I heard that!!!!

All of this shouldn't be rocket science. We're all human beings, and should know how to deal with each other appropriately.

There are people here who have said that VPW raped them. Now I don't know about where all of you are from, but at least where I am from when someone says that they were raped, you don't start telling them that they remembered it wrong, or that they're lying, or whatever. Unless someone says a specific lie that you have proof they are wrong, you should give them the benefit of the doubt on that topic. Likewise, since you know VPW and LCM are thought of poorly by the majority of people on this site, you should use tact in defending him. I don't think we should completely prohibit defending him at all, but those that want to do so should be careful about how they do it. This is, obviously, intended to be read by the VPW supporters.

For the rest of you, remember that the TWI supporters are human beings too. At one point, you would have been in their shoes defending VPW, LCM, TWI, or any of their doctrines. The fact is, they are here, and we have an opportunity to show them what we know. Don't view it as an us vs. them situation, but rather a chance for us to help people who have been made mentally ill from being in [harmed by] TWI. Be nice to them, at least until they are belligerent.

I realize I'm being picky about semantics. And essentially I agree with you P-Mosh. But there's a significant difference between "made mentally ill" and "harmed by." At minimum, use of the expression "harmed by" puts the focus where it belongs, on the fact that the ramification was caused by the action of those who did wrong.

As to the "until they are beliggerent..." well, the example of the conduct of the poster on these threads over the weekend... was not a person claiming the harm to her had been done by wierwille or others in twi.

Does disagreement = disruption?

for everyone.

If so, the clearly it is not an open board of discussions but a hate site .

There's a time and a place for everything. On some issues, voicing disagreement does equal being disruptive.

It appears people are saying that there is a legitimate need here for twi sexual abuse victims to express themselves without being hassled in return.

That does not make this a hate site.

I never saw any of this side of this ministry, and never would have had I not googled vp in 2004. So what you people take for granted because "you have been in on it" for so long, this is still shocking to me. If it happened, I don't know, LIKE I SAID IN THE ORIGINAL POST, I WASN'T THERE. I am taking the word of people who hide behind fake names, so if being skeptical bothers you I am sorry, it's a lot of absorb, and if I have honest questions, I am going to ask them. My intent wasn't to start world war three, evidently, some of you are real prickly, I didn't know the answer to the question, so I asked. If you get mad and get defensive it is not going to help me understand where you are coming from.

Apparently you haven't read far enough... Kris Skedgell is a REAL person who posts here using her REAL name. She wrote a book about her experience. She has been interviewed by pawtucket for two GS radio interviews... what more do you need?

Ten years ago, in early July of 1998........the advanced class was running at twi's hq. To help oversee the new students, inresidence corps were brought in from camp gunnison as branch coordinators. As twi events go, this one had all the same standard procedures and pecking order as usual.

Except for one glitch........

At this event, martindale set his sights on a corps woman, a married woman whose husband and children were back at camp gunnison, and this sexual encounter brought extreme confusion, hurt, and emotional distraught to this corps woman. As this *damage* spilled over to her corps brother, who took it upon himself to personally CONFRONT CRAIG.......the damage control liasons of twi, the gun-totting guys, were unleashed to get this corps guy packing and on a bus within the hour.

Others know much more of these details than me.......but it later involved a Colorado Court Case.

As the phones began ringing.....and word spread of this sexcapade involving martindale and this married corps woman, it left little doubt that THINGS WERE ROTTEN AT THE WAY INTERNATIONAL. For indeed, some of us truly believed that martindale and howard and don were sincerely committed to *cleaning up the way international* and taking this *prevailing word* (cough, cough) to all who wanted deliverance. Like his predecessor wierwille, here martindale had "a secret life of lust" and was preying on the young corps women......a married woman, no less.

MY FUTURE CHANGED.......with the knowledge of this!!!!!

IT WAS TIME TO LEAVE TWI.

Sure, I heard Cgeer's poop paper back in the day (of the power grab) .......but honestly, it was filled with SO MUCH pomp and arrogance of cgeer's "wisdom and accomplishments" that I could barely hear what he was saying. And then, with Schoenhxxt's adultery paper, the firings, the shenanigans of geer's now-you-see-me-now-you-don't.........I just wasn't ready to "jump ship" when that loyalty letter came out.

WHY NOW?? WHY THE CHANGE??.............Well, for one thing, I was ten years older and had plenty of time to assimilate the geer-martindale-offshoots splintering and all that. Plus, the homo purge and the micro-management and the "promised land of the prevailing word" brought MORE and MORE LEGALISM INTO TWI. So, when this martindale sexcapade event spilled out.....at the advanced class, no less.......with a MARRIED corps woman......and hearing subsequent information from others as this information opened insider information of twi......THE SCALES FELL FROM MY EYES.

So.............TEN YEARS LATER, what have I learned. Well.....Martindale was ousted two years after I left -- in 2000. And, Rosalie has done her best to squelch any information or anyone who want to resolve twi's dark issues. Plus, without a charismatic leader anymore........twi has resorted to *bringing back from the dead wierwille-idolatry and the over-the-top adulation of emeritus trustees. The Multi-Level Marketing administration is firmly in place and "business as usual" has gained residency once again.......as well as the "serf system," the corps program.

Notwithstanding that twi's sunday teachings are SO BORING, AND DULL, AND READ FROM THE LECTURN each week........imo, it gives rock-solid proof that the twi religion is dead.

Looking at life......TEN YEARS LATER......and life is so very good.

Fresh air and skying high.

skyrider

Hey Skyrider,

I appreciate your perspective on this...

WD, once again, you replied to someone's post, but missed actually addressing WHAT THEY SAID.

You've been doing that A LOT the past few days, almost as if you're doing your best to not address

WHAT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY SAYING....

Not only that, but he (it) has been doing so with posts addressed to someone else... btw, mental health professionals have a term for the type of conduct you described... and that term represents a classic/standard personal emotional defense mechanism.

And regarding O.J. Simpson - ... He was found guilty in at least one court....

Excellent point Dooj...

Not ONLY that, but long time LA County Prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi wrote

Outrage: The Five Reasons Why O. J. Simpson Got Away with Murder the paperback edition was published in February of this year.

This seems to say that a real live PROSECUTOR can call someone a MURDERER, not simply an ALLEGED murderer, even when a criminal jury does not return a verdict of guilty.

That would seem to put to rest that fool's claim about wierwille... the fool that introduced THIS particular MURDERER as the example of his point that we should not say wierwille is guilty of raping young women.

okay, it did not introduce OJ (Abi did).

Well, I didn't like his politics. But he was a decent guy. It is definitely a sad day and he will be missed.

and 53 is WAY too young to die.

:(

Again I'll point out this has zero to do with defending Wierwille he just happened to be the subject due to the nature of this place. It is about speaking properly, saying opinion when it is so and stating fact when it is so. It is wrong to state that some one is guilty of a crime when there has been no guilt established to them in the system of justice . It's pretty simple when you have a conviction of guilt then it is proper to refer to a person as guilty until then it is not. Most people understand this except when someone contempt for someone is so strong that they think it is ok to change the rules , it is not. We all have a right to a fair hearing before someone is declared guilty.

That's simply WRONG.

This is NOT a court of law. Have you provided ANY reference, legal or otherwise to back up this bogus claim that it is not proper to refer to someone as guilty unless they are found guilty by a court of law?

It is a forum where people can express their thoughts and feelings regarding their experiences.

As such there is NO WAY you can tell a person she is wrong and have it mean anything but that you are attacking that person.

YOU, by definition, CANNOT define the terms of that person's experience, nor can you define the conditions under which she should be limited or prevented from expressing those thoughts and feelings about that experience.

You are apparently incapable of the kind of honest self-examination necessary for you to be able to "get it."

However, you still need to STOP harassing victims for telling their own stories.

Screw wierwille (figuratively). And no matter how much you deny it, this IS about you defending wierwille. You just use the structure of the American justice system to describe your objections... but your descriptions are without merit regardless.

WD...

How many times do you have to have it spelled out for you?

THIS is not a court of law.

THIS place does NOT provide rights for wierwille.

And YOU are doing something markedly different than what you claim is being done to you.

YOU harass victims of abuse. Of course, these are self-identified victims of abuse. But their self-identification does NOT negate their experience.

OTOH, you come here and only claim that you are being abused by those who demand you stop abusing victims of abuse in real (non-cyber) life.

And without question, you avoided really answering waterbuffalo's questions.

YOU need to STOP harassing victims of abuse.

Perhaps, if YOU do so, then you will see a dramatic decrease in what you claim is improper treatment here by others against you.

What do you have to lose...?

Have you given any thought/reflection to what I posed as my theory?

Now this statement Catholics have not defended the priests who were found in sexual abuse cases, and the Catholic Church has even apologized for what has happened to many people. Heck, the Pope visited the US happens to be untrue. Who do you think paid off the state of Georgia to hide the SOB.

I left enough clues, check for yourself. The Roman Catholic church does defend priests and they hide them, put them in places where they cannot be touched, or in this case, where no one suspects......

Use your reason and get a clue, your statement is erroneous at best.

Yes, for a long time the Catholic Church tried to hide the scandals. Eventually, they had to change direction and face the music. It took persistence on the part of the victims, tremendous persistence.

Yes, for a long time, the victims of the priests were treated with similar disrespect and disbelief. They persisted, as a group anyway.

The scandals that church faced were pervasive. The practices by wierwille/martindale and perhaps some others were amazingly too common. Because of the persistence of a few, twi has had to deal with some of it. Martindale's personal ministry was destroyed by his horrible acts, that he apparently learned from wierwille.

Rocky said:

Rocky, I don't think it's fair to lump OM in with WD. OM has softened his position over the years, and aside from the occasional poorly timed quip, I don't see him in the same category as WD (who appears to be as immovable as a 20-ton boulder) at all.

Oldiesman, yesterday in the "Where's the Beef" thread:

Oldiesman earlier yesterday"

I appreciate you pointing that out. In fact, I can recognize progress with OM in that he has acknowledged (conditioned on pawtucket changing the rules) the need to allow victims to tell their stories without challenge...

I don't think there is something wrong with defending a dead man, but i dont think Rocky is saying that this by itself is wrong. I must also agree with his following point.

I think the reason I have never mad much squabble with Rocky is that I generally have stayed away from the political forum!

Really, I don't care if they defend wierwille either... just not anywhere near where a victim of abuse is telling her story.

Ok fine. If Pawtucket states in the forum rules that participants are not entitled to express their own opinions as it relates to or challenge a person giving her own testimony then I will abide by the rules.

You need to get the point whether the explicitly stated rules change or not. It's not something I'm making up... I'm just summarizing what too many people have been trying to tell you for a long time. Don't blame pawtucket for your behavior.

Believe what you want to believe. Just STOP DOING (challenging the victims) it.