Nathan_Jr

2 hours ago, OldSkool said:

I think many times he didn't come out and actually say what he wanted but led people to draw the conclusions he wanted them to.

How astute. The manipulative power of suggestion. The dark persuasion. The classic playbook of the cult leader.

When one’s mind has been dulled and blunted from inexhaustible dogmatic platitudes rubbed in repetitively through “holding forth,” one can easily be lead to draw the cult leader’s desired conclusions.

“No one forced you believe or revere vpw or the accuracy that he teaches. God gave everyone free will. You have the power to choose. It’s up to you. It’s your choice of your own free will. No one is holding a gun to your head. But I wouldn’t grumble if I were you. Don’t do it…. Doooon’t do it.” — Actual answer given to me when I asked a very simple question of “the class”coordinator, the fellowship father in the word, the ex-corps sychophant. 

29 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

So this Malchizadek character.  

That was like a begotten Christ from an earlier time? 

Tom Bombadil tends to induce a number of questions as well.

Neither guy wore a Corps ring.  That's how much raw power they had.

I think many have said this. As you've pointed out before, begotten Christ figures are everywhere in ancient literature and scripture.

But what about this threat from the johniam? We are to enjoy it while we can. I get that part. That's easy. But when we CAN'T. Is he saying we won't be able to enjoy it when we can't?

31 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I'm trying to think about acting like a criminal in public but we don't discuss politics. 

 

VPW said your criminality or devilish trickery, if unseen, is only problematic if you believe it is.

Based on this "foundational truth" I'm wondering: if you don't believe the acceptance of the Trinity is a devilish trick, is it?

25 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Well how does accepting a Trinity a trick of an Adversary?

Isn't The Adversary's existence what needs to be questioned?  I think someone did earlier.

These are great questions.

Is accepting a Trinity a trick of the adversary if one doesn't believe it is? Like when one behaves like a criminal in private.

Does the Adversary exist if one doesn't believe it does? Again, if no one is watching.

20 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

 

Great question! There’s various ways to answer that. I’m not sure that I’m correctly reasoning out this conundrum…anyway…my 2 cents is partly based on a key word in the Greek text of John 3:16   
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”   

In the     Greek text of John 3:16    - only begotten   is from        monogenē   which is   # 3439 in Strong’s numbering system      and you can see two ideas in the Greek word  –  mono = one and genos = offspring, stock…we could say Jesus was one of a kind. Unique…In one of my earlier 2-bit-theological-musings    ( here  )  I imagined Jesus as a unique hybrid in a superhero origin story…a hybrid is the offspring of two plants or animals of different species or varieties. So I think in Jesus we would find a being with a mix of qualities from two natures – human and divine…so technically I would think Jesus began in Mary…

But

there’s also the Logos to consider  
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning… The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.     John 1: 1, 2 & 14

Logically the concept in John 1 predates Jesus’ beginning in Mary. How do we imagine the coming together of the two distinct natures? I don’t know. How is it possible to cram godhood into a human being? Don’t know. Was “some stuff” left out? My pea-brain thinks so. I’m thinking Jesus’ brain and body was pushed to its fullest potential – and if there was a need to fill in any knowledge or wisdom gaps – or if there was a need for any miraculous power, maybe that’s where the Holy Spirit came in.

And what’s that? A connection to Marvel’s Quantum Real? A divine manipulation of the fundamental forces of the cosmos? Lots of things for me to get lost in speculation. Is there something to superstring theory? What happened when Jesus Christ was raised from the dead? Then his physical body was miraculously altered to something otherworldly…with capabilities beyond human reason.   “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form”  Colossians 2:9 . I don’t really understand what that verse is talking about. But time-wise I believe it’s referring to Christ in his resurrected…changed…exalted form.
 

Thanks, T-Bone. I was wondering about what seems to be the over-arching tone of Johniam's OP. It seems argumentatively threatening. What do you suppose this threat is about? Who is he arguing with? There is an eschatological theme to "enjoy it while you can." I wasn't corps, so I'm not an expert on the devil. What's going on here?

Just now, Bolshevik said:

So, there's numerous alternatives to The Trinity.  Which is the right alternative? 

The Bible is Not God.  So a definitive answer wouldn't likely be there.

The right alternative? Exactly. Everyone's doxy is the orthodoxy according to who's proclaiming it. But everyone can't be right. So, maybe, everyone is wrong and the truth is something else entirely. I don't know, nor do I claim to know.

The Bible was written over thousands of years by dozens, if not hundreds, of authors and editors with different opinions and theologies and agendas. Different theologians have derived different doctrines from the same diverse collection of books we call the Bible. Right?

I'm just trying to enjoy all this while I still can. Presumably, before it's too late. Because God's love is perpetual, until it's not. So I've been told. 

12 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Right it sounded like there were numerous ideas for a second, like Jesus had be begotten, forgotten, begotten again.

In the beginning was THE Word.  And THE Word was with God.  And THE Word was God.

That's a Bible Verse.  The Bible was in the beginning?  The Bible is God?  Maybe The Word and The Bible are two different things.  His Will is also a thing.

Right. I never considered the Bible to be God until I took "the class."

Later, I came to understand the words, like "pros," are NOT the Word.

Some thoughts to enjoy while one can. 

12 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Poor Thomas' Almanac.  

So Jesus was begatten here and there?

I don't think Thomas is helpful for this discussion.

Maybe the infancy Gospel of Thomas says something about when he was begotten or else his pre-existence, but that is very late... and very weird.

My earlier point was about how different the Christologies are between say Mark and John. 

14 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

You mean like Thomas?

Thomas doesn’t have a narrative. Only sayings. 

14 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Did Jesus begin in Mary or way before that?

Kinda depends on which Gospel you read. 

The Trinity developed over time as do all theological doctrines. I think Tertullian coined the term in the late 2nd century. (Later, Tertullian became a Montanist, SIT and prophesying more in one week than Paul and Victor combined did in their lifetimes.)

The fourth and latest Gospel was the basis for this doctrine, obviously.  John's was of a very high Christology. One might imagine, if this was the only gospel available to an early church assembly, why they might think Jesus was God.

But this doctrine is ultra early when considered in the context of other spurious doctrines like five crucified and dispensational systematic theology. Both of those were hand--crafted like a fine APA in the 19th century.

30 minutes ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

Good comment Nathan_Jr. Actually if Victor was still alive and I met him. I figuratively might even hold out my hand like I often do with dogs when I meet them. To see if they wag their tales or bark. If they wag their tale, I could pet them. If they bark I will walk away. And I really like dogs. 

Actually, if victor, bless his little heart, were still alive he might have found meekness, humility and silence. He might have repented with Godly sorrow. Only then might he have found what honest pursuit of Truth really means. Only then can the student be ready; and when the student is ready, the master appears.

Sometimes, in order to understand what is, we need to contrast  what it is not: the dark with the light, the good with the evil, victor paul wierwille with the Truth.

If victor were still alive, I would let him sit at my feet, but not for long, because how embarrassing!

32 minutes ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

I wonder if people here are sad because they did not even try to correct any leader of TWI, when they were still with TWI? So perhaps they are making up for this by writing against Victor Wierwille on this forum. 

Thanks Mark,

Please accept my loving correction.

The goal of gaslighting is to make the gaslighted question everything they themselves discern and KNOW to be real and true, creating a codependent relationship with the gaslighter. This is abuse. This is brainwashing. This is evil.  

I suspect most here were too hooked and confused to confront or correct any leader. This was by victor's design. And once they woke up to Truth, they dropped it all and split. Though there are a few here who did confront leadership while still in. They've told their stories here.

Sadness for not trying to correct those taught up by VPW? Probably not. More likely anger at the deceiver and his deceiving minions for the destruction of lives. Angry at the deceiver, VPW, for deceiving those seeking God; and angry at themselves for believing God is to be found through any mortal man with an engraved bracelet.

Writing against victor wierwille, bless his tiny hard heart, is to write for the Truth. 

It just occurred to me there are at least 8 TMOGs.  Victor, bless his little heart, ANOINTED Loy's head with oil.  OIL. Doesn't that make Loy the 8th TMOG?

2 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

So these Phone Hook-Ups operate without matches? How do they enlighten these 7 of 9 persons of Gawd?  Bestowed with titles of "THE"?

7 of 9? Where did you get THAT?  9 is 3 to the 2nd power. And we don't do 3 around here. No trinity. No 3 crucified. No sir! Five crucified. That's riiight.

Now the New Testament has 27 books. That's 3 to the 3rd power. That's impossible. That's just devilish. Anyway, it's not in the original.

Now, take your eyeballs...er... I mean BIBLES out and turn to any of the Gospels. Pick one. Any one. Now, rip it out. Those records are to (T-O) the Jews. You're not a Jew are you? No? Good. Just tear it out. And you end up with what? 26. That's right. 26 books in the New Testament  That's what Gawd intended. See, man made it 27, but Gawd made it 26. 

See how simple that was? Didn't even need a match. 

1 hour ago, waysider said:

Who was that 4th 7th man?

Look, it's real simple, kids. It's just like PROS. It's just glove fitting is all it is. Just tremendous the order of these things...

Carl was the 4th.  Jasper was the 5th.  Scott was the 6th.

Of course, VPW was the 7th.

Isn't that wonderful! Yes, it is. Bless your little hearts.

And you can have believing faith that this is true because I said so. Believing faith implies obedience faith. I can't prove any of it. Only a coordinator of music with a trusty A/V guy can prove the matchless order of these things. Unless the A/V guy gets too tired, then the whole thing falls apart. 

13 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Cause that would make 4 people. 

Four trees. The people were trees. Axiomatically, the trees were people.

The number 4 is significant because of 18th century French tombstones. "The earth is flat," said a man who wrote a pamphlet called "Also."

Gosh, all this beleeeving IS, indeed, exhausting. I hope it's not deadly.

54 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I read somewhere VPW could stop the Russians.

You read the accuracy like it has never been read before. He stopped the Russians once by beleeeving. Imagine what VPW could do if he didn't get so tired that he stopped beleeeving. Well, he could stop them again, that's what.

He was the seventh, after all. After Scott, precisely. 

11 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Back in 1980 or so, the coordinator of the music group I was in said that VP was the 7th "THE man of God" and that this was very significant

If we could find our who this music coordinator is, we could ask him directly.

I suspect this coordinator of music groups is the funniest man of all time. A real clever fellow. An entertainer. It's worth finding out if he has a podcast or YouTube channel. 

8 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Someone once claimed that exactly 3 people in history ever faced the devil directly-  Jesus Christ, Paul and vpw.   Where does this stuff even COME FROM?

The source of this is imagination from a mind transformed through the "rubbing in by repetition." A mind of an apologist walking by the spirit of delusion, clutching desperately to the blinding bull$hit. A mind of an apologist fervent in his rejection of the freedom required to know that which is eternal, Truth, Love.

Or, to provide a very loose, free interpretation literally according to usage: it comes from the devil himself. 

Bernie Madoff gave $millions to philanthropic endeavors, but all anyone wants to focus on are the lies and the defrauding of thousands out of $billions.

Harvey Weinstein produced Pulp Fiction, True Romance and Things to Do in Denver When Your Dead, but all anyone wants to focus on is the raping.

Michael Jackson made Thriller. THRILLER.  But all anyone wants to focus on is the child f#cking.

39 minutes ago, waysider said:

Reading between the lines:

1. The person making the statement is only mentioning one by name, VPW, thus, downgrading the significance of the other six.

2. The person is making a point to award him the number7, which, according to TWI theology, signified perfection.

 

Hence, VPW was the most important and perfect of all Men of God.

 

 

(Jesus has entered the chat.)

The seventh and FINAL. The eschaton is near.

4 minutes ago, waysider said:

Have you ever noticed they never mention Skippy?

Looks a bit suspicious to me.

Ahhh... but Skippy was merely A man of God, not THE man of God. 

5 hours ago, chockfull said:

I wish I could like this 7 x 70!!  I had to  look up Barbara Brown Taylor. She's an Episcopal priest.  Wow.  Didn't expect that.

The one who claims to have the truth is surely the one who does not.

7 hours ago, WordWolf said:

I believe he had a one of a kind ministry. Back in 1980 or so, the coordinator of the music group I was in said that VP was the 7th "THE man of God" and that this was very significant. I never heard that same message from anybody else and I'm not sure what it even means, but I do believe that VPs combination of gift ministries was unique, not cookie cutter. Nobody has duplicated the respect and impact he got from his people."

 

The apologist's belief: VPW had a one of a kind ministry.

The reasons why (W-H-Y) the apologist clings to the belief:

• The music coordinator said VP was the 7th "The man of God." (Authority)
• The message of VP's slot in the lineage is unique, previous never heard by the apologist. (Non sequitur)
• The meaning of this message is unknown to the apologist. (Non sequitur)

Well, there you have it. The apologist's epistemology: Authority plus two Non Sequiturs equals the fixation of belief by Tenacity. (The weakest reason to believe anything.) The music coordinator said something, I don't understand it, therefore I believe it, that settles it  The fruit salad of a dull mind - a mind dulled by "rubbing in by repetition."

As for the other six The Men of God?  Moses, some guy in Kings (thanks Oldies), Timothy, Carl, Jasper and Scott.