Nathan_Jr

27 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Forgive me as I am trying to track.  Belief seems non-specific.  Is it a thing? A number of related things? A thing that is a thing sometimes but not others?  As real and true are two different things.

And now faith is word spelled differently than belief.  That's why we crossed it out and wrote believing.

God is a word as well that means different things at different times.  

Now a cult generally requires a person, which is real, to lead.  Some more people to follow, and these folks are also decided to be real.  The leading and the following . . . are they together with or distinctly independent of . . .mutually exclusive of the thing they are doing?  Or are these words misleading in the first place? 

The cult person leading of course has a personality.  A personality has a definition . . . which is a description to describe its meaning.  The followers take on that personality together with, and yet not so much distinctly independent of, each other.  In all this is THE thing.

Well, exactly, lest it all fall to pieces.

Let me quote VPW. This should clear up the confusion:

"Now Satan could have kids by the barrel-full because all he had to do is possess them. But God can't have any children until they what? Believe. Like today, God can't have a child until somebody believes. Wait until we get into the discerning of spirit field then all this stuff will take on a ten million times bigger color."

Isn't that just a tremendous record!

if Victor had been given an enema, he could have been buried in a match box.

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

I personally have asked for decades what belief even is.  Is it trust?  Is it a decision?  What are we even talking about? . . . The word has little meaning sometimes.  

Victor would say: Believing is what you do, faith is what you have. Mmmmm..meh... kinda... but this is too facile. His pithy maxims are part of the sleight of hand.

A simple dictionary definition: belief is an acceptance that something is real or true.

Most languages only have one word for belief/faith. Greek has only one, pistis. English has two.

I like the distinction that belief is a clinging to, a clutching, but faith is a letting go, a surrender. (I may have heard that from Alan Watts.) For me, it's an informative and helpful distinction. Something to contemplate.

In order to be hurt by a lie, one must first BELIEVE that lie to be true. A lie REQUIRES belief to survive. Something else to contemplate.

The North Koreans and Chinese BELIEVE their leaders are gods.

All conditioning is belief. Not all belief is problematic, obviously. Most is innocuous, but for me it's important to be aware of what and why I believe anything. To simply pay attention. But a mind must be free in order to pay attention, to see clearly.

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

People identify with Victor Paul Wierwille.  He is part of who they are.  An attack on him or his "work" is an attack on them.

These people are not free. My heart breaks for them and the those caught in their orbit.

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

I don't think TWI ever convinced anyone the beliefs are sound.

Ask Mike, or my fellowship leader, I'm sure they would disagree. 

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

China tears up your passport.

The state uses social media to influence behavior.

They also have these YouTube videos of people praising China and mocking very specific individuals in The West.  It's hilarious watching how scripted the emotions are.  They basically show up at your door one day with a camera and some threats and say "read this".  

That's maybe 1.4 billion people, but it's now understood China has even been making those numbers up.  It's probably overestimated by over 100 million people.  Still bigger than all cults combined.

China or North Korea?

North Korea is the most isolated nation state on the planet. China may be "cultish," but North Korea is a cult. The ruling family, the Kims, are treated like gods. Literally, they are viewed as divine, by free will force. 

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

It is eerie how completely different cults like Scientology and The Way having polar opposite views and products all become so similar in how they execute.

Isolate and control.

Consume all of the followers time and money with activity to mask that they truly have nothing to help.

Who knows whether Maggie will survive the Muggings.

Right. The defining characteristics have little to do with dogmatic beliefs. In just the last few years, them have been some excellent threads here diving deep into cult structure and behavior. And though a search of Scientology will yield results, I'm not sure enough has been said about how VPW even plagiarized L. Ron Hubbard's tactics. 

They were contemporaries. LRH had his Sea Org, VPW had his Corps. LRH was a brutal master of m&a. The classes and levels and always something new to purchase - required and mandated, but through cheerful free will choice. The lock box... on and on.

All cults operate the same. Dogmatic beliefs, whether spaceships or devil seed, are merely incidental  The stupidity of belief does not a cult make; it's that the cult can convince people these beliefs are sound - through isolation and control.

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

Is that the case?  To hide from the laughter?  Or are they sick?

The genitive case? When you know that sickness is available, and you know how (H-O-W) to get sick, you must laugh - that's what to do with it once you've got it, laugh. Now, does laughter interpret the sickness or does the hiding interpret itself?

Pretty straightforward like a wedge. Or a glove. 

3 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Anyway, isolation is a thing.

Pushing people away to isolate others OR to self isolate are two other things. 

While pushing others away you could be isolating yourself.

While pushing others away you could be isolating them.

Yep. All cults and cult followers must isolate.

A wedge. Even in the original. Lambano that isolation. Mug Maggie. Force that sharing. 

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

I'm gonna go with French Cemeteries, in that case.

We were trained Way D to "keep your friends at arms length".  That's for friends.  You don't want to get to close to those types.

People are essentially dead.  The dead of course are NOT alive.

The purpose of ostracism is a death sentence.  No contact is as if someone is dead to you.

 

 

This is a typical strategy of NPDs: Create distance and eventually isolate the victim from friends and family. Going so far as gaslighting the victim to BELIEVE that their friends were never true friends or even real friends, they were counterfeits - the result is no friends nor family for the victim. (I have no friends when it comes to the word = your friends were never really your friends. This is a lie propagated from devil seed.)

Yes, In a way, no contact is as if someone is dead to you, because one must come to the understanding that the NPD is dead inside. The NPD's greatest fear is being exposed. In other words, the NPD is afraid of the Truth. And, as pointed out before, what does the NPD hate more than anything? Herself. She hates the truth of herself.

Yes, the purpose of ostracism is to KILL, to make life dead. The purpose of no contact with a NPD is to SAVE one's life, to survive, to thrive, to see the Truth.

I think from a superficial, semantic perspective, it appears that they are two sides of the same coin. The distinction seems subtle and nuanced, because it is, but it's still a clear distinction. One can't kill the NPD through no contact, one can only save one's self - the NPD will destroy itself.

The clear distinction is important so the victim doesn't self-deceive into the trap of guilt for killing. The victim must see this distinction as life SAVING. No contact, in the context of NPDs like VPW, is NOT the same as ostracism, not even close, not in anyway.

Prepositions, ya know....and condescensio.... even semicolons...even hook shots.... then, Then, THEN...

2 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I thought the context was the attitude behind the action.  

The context is lots of things, see? It's so simple, if you work it. It's Pete throwing snowballs, It's Maggie jumping on Johnny. It's lots of things, really.

If you can't do it the right way, you ought to try it VP's way. It's AVAILABLE. Like this rotten corpse. No one said you had to eat of it under the glow of red candles. That's right! No one said you had to. It's your free will choice to do as ol' VP will fool well please.

Alliteration. Even assonance. Bless your little hearts.

3 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I'm just following instructions.  They told me to operate Power from on/while High.  

 

What about sanctions?  Is that no contact or ostracism?

 

Sanctions against Russia? Or against 18th century French cemeteries?

I need to understand the CONTEXT of your question so I may know how to answer, with either obfuscation or deflection. The context is critical to self interpreting a pronoun. 

4 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Well, if that just isn't what to do with it once you've got it, I'll jump up on Johnny!

Bless your little hearts... the original, you know... to/for.... interpretations and all that...

25 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

As I read this it sounded very similar to the "no contact" strategy.   Which is what someone leaving TWI might want to employ with TWI - as a means to establish boundaries.

Ostracism/ silent treatment/ mark and avoid (in TWI)  VS   No contact

It's the same thing with a different attitude behind it.

 

Not the same thing. 

"No contact" is, as you point out, a means to establish boundaries with the NPD. It's an essential tactic for survival - literally deployed to SAVE one's life.

The NPD deploys the tactics of ostracism, silent treatment and m&a in order to KILL and DESTROY. 

But if one must MAKE it fit...well, there's a glove for that. 

8 hours ago, Rocky said:

There never was any more detail. It was vague... and the unspoken truth was that you just had to take it on faith.

The people recruited into Wierwille's cult in the 1970s and 80s were young people, teens to young adults. FEW had the kind of analytical mind back then to even form the questions you have just posed. If anyone DID form and ask those questions, they either decided on their own that they didn't need to belong to this newfangled subculture or if they did get sucked in (by the undertow, as it were), if they mustered up the gumption to articulate the questions and asked them out loud, they were sent packing (marked and avoided) before they knew what hit them. 

Thank you, Rocky.

So, it's a manufactured device designed to cover the floors with eggshells. A completely contrived wicked doctrine designed to cast a pall of fear and keep everyone in line, committed, obsequious. It's an invented, sinister tool for abuse.

This is both disappointing and expected news.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but its rotting carcass has contaminated a well from which people still drink.

16 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

~ ~ ~ ~ 

"Looking back at what I just wrote, I feel pretty embarrassed to admit I ever bought in to this nonsense. But, here I am, 50 years later, trying to decide whether to laugh or cry about it."

That right there is my idea of a healthy frame of mind!

Back in my TWI-days I was a very forgiving person when it came to interacting with others cuz I believed it was the right thing to do. But when it came to myself – I had a hard time breaking the cycle of guilt that seemed to get more and more ramped up the more I got involved in TWI. Trying to please leadership I’d get caught up in their guilt-inducing-tirades…guilt and frustration…I got yelled at for not rushing over to “batten down the hatches” of the corps tents when there was a torrential downpour. When asked why I didn’t – I replied “because Rev. Martindale addressed us all huddled under the main tent and said don’t ANYONE leave the tent”. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

I think you’re correct on wierwille’s definition of the unforgiveable sin…since I’ve left TWI, I keep revising my own definitions of TWI-definitions...and so…the unforgiveable sin in TWI was questioning wierwille and other leadership.... ....that’s why the greatest sin a TWI-believer can commit is to break the first and great commandment…to NOT love wierwille with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength…the second is like unto it – thou shalt love thy leadership just like you love wierwille. On these 2 commandments hang all the PFAL books and TWI-programs.
 

I know all of this is true. I know the abuse is real.

I know what is available: devil seed rebirth. wedges. permanence  

but I don't know how to get it or what to do with it once you've got it. 
 

please. 

7 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

If only there were more Corps Teachings. . .  We may never know ow for sure. . . 

I've downloaded hundreds of pages of transcripts  of Corps teachings and Advanced Classes '71/'79 from Archive.org. Also downloaded dozens of hours of CFS video. But the unforgivable sin teaching is conspicuously missing. There are files with the title, but all content has been redacted.

I'm fascinated. I'll just beleeeve for someone to come through with more details. 

2 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

WHO CREATED THE WEDGE

This whole thing could fall apart like a house of cards. . . .

And, of course, it did.

Proverbs 6:12-18 sound like descriptions of VPW and LCM.

2 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

The devil can't create.  He puts a wedge into the mind of someone NOT born again

Rightly divided BS.

Who created the wedge? What are the chapters and verses supporting this? Any real life examples of people with devil wedges?

This is fascinating and hilarious. I've always heard this and been personally gaslighted with it, but no one (with distinction) has ever explained how or provided scriptural evidence. 

14 minutes ago, waysider said:

Old guy chiming in here. The unforgivable sin was defined and expounded upon in the early PFAL class. It freaked too many people out so it was removed and taught as a separate session and then again in the Advanced Class.

The basic concept of the unforgivable sin was that people could get "born again" of the seed of Satan. This was different than devil spirit possession, which was temporal in nature. The reason it was considered unforgivable was because it had permanence due to it being seed initiated like the new birth Christ in you. Only, instead of Christ in you, it was supposed to be the Devil in you. Once you had it, it could never be removed or reversed.

 

Looking back at what I just wrote, I feel pretty embarrassed to admit I ever bought in to this nonsense. But, here I am, 50 years later, trying to decide whether to laugh or cry about it.

Thanks Waysider. I've read/heard that before, but it seems completely incomplete. How do you get born again of devil seed? How H-O-W? Can you get this devil seed even if you are born again of Holy Spirit? What are the scripture proof texts?
 

Serious questions, even though I can barely see to type through these tears of laughter. 

2 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Walking on eggshells.

You're always downhill in the pecking order of believing.  And ALL sin is just as bad.  You can't make small mistakes.  They are all a catastrophe.

But no condemnation sure do you love you forgiveness and yada.  Until you f it up again.

THIS.  The eggshells. This is exactly what NPDs make you do - walk on eggshells all the time. All nine eggshells all the time.

When I defended with no condemnation, completely complete, super-conqueror, I was met with rage and fury. Hypocrisy and contempt. Hell hath no fury like a dogmatic doctrine full of holes.

1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

Unforgivable sin as I heard was a wedge in the mind that allowed devil spirits full access at all times.  You couldn't renew your mind or something.  . I'm not sure how you commit it though.  Maybe if you peed in the fountain.

DTA, Defeating the Adversary.  Because dust bunnies are a spiritual battle.

"Sinning" in TWI was arbitrary.  It was anyone's guess if you were in or out of fellowship.

Really? All devil spirit access all the time?

Maybe Mike can define it according to usage. Mike, what is the unforgivable sin according to victor?

39 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Trying to connect dots  . . . Or X's ... he had that board in the class with different size X's and said they are all the same, meaning all forms of sin are the same, none are worse than the other. . . 

But the renewed mind has a pecking order.  As he alludes to in those Corps teachings.

(And that ignores the DTA class and original sin.)

 

"The stronger believer has a more renewed mind." Here the renewed mind is a conditioned mind shackled (strengthened) by belief. Not a free mind, but a programmed mind. The lie requires belief to wield any power or influence; but Truth requires no belief..

How did he define the unforgivable sin?  What is the DTA class?
 

21 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Yes!!!!

In PFAL wierwille said “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ”. I would like to submit a reinterpretation of that phrase as a Christian now free from a cultic mindset. But first let me just say wierwille probably thought his class was guiding students in the right direction - but as the old proverb goes “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” … as always in analyzing PFAL there’s usually more of a mess to untangle than just the obvious like proof-texting. Among other things there’s lots of hidden assumptions. 

There’s at least two HUGE false assumptions within wierwille’s “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ”:

1.    It is assumed that WHATEVER wierwille taught in PFAL is “rightly-divided” and as such is equivalent to the original Word of God, when “holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost”.  Thus, PFAL equals “The Word”.

2.    It is assumed that Jesus Christ is absent.

So…to decrypt…or de-cultify (if that’s a word    ) wierwille’s phrase in order to expose the old switcheroo I present the following:

wierwille / PFAL  replaces Jesus Christ
 

 

And I'd like to say to all you Christians in TWI - why do you let those anti-Christs run your life? Repent! Run! Get as far away from TWI  (its doctrine and influence)  as possible...

...and let Jesus Christ be lord in your life again!

Concise and well said TBone. It's a fair reinterpretation. It's so subtle, but this is how the thief operates.

In a diligent effort to make me obedient and renew my mind for me, I was taught, admonished with the same logic: imitate vic because Vic>Paul>Christ>God or Victor reveals Paul; Paul reveals Christ; Christ reveals God; therefore, victor reveals God.

As absurd as this sounds, I still have the messages as proof. This sinister deception is real.

18 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Wow....just wow......and I don't mean the program. He actually said that his behavior that people do not see does not matter unless you believe it will. That NOT biblical in any way, shape of form. It is so very revealing. Do whatever you want as long as you believe it is ok then it is. No conscience, just pure BS rationilization. Occultist believe "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" (to quoate Aleister Crowley)...in other words...do whatever you want. It won't matter unless you believe it will. And people call this guy a man of God?

Im not tooting my own horn with what I am about to say because I stumble daily as a Christian. I was at work on Friday and we have a garage loaded with electrical construction materials. I need 4 lights for my bathroom light fixture at home. I seriously almost swiped a box and put them into my car to use at home. Nobody would have ever known. I didn't because God sees all and stealing is wrong. I will not steal, not even a penny. If I do it accidentally then I would want to restore ten fold what was taken.

My point - Why the heck didn't VPW use this as an example to teach Christian character? I would have mad respect for him if he said something to the effect of "Well people may not see what you do, but God does always so you want to always do the best you can to live the Bible"....but no....he reveals his true inner nature of being a man-pleaser and shows no concern for what Almighty God sees him do. And I bet God saw some real ugliness.

He can't teach Christian character because it's a hand too righteous to fit in his little withered glove.

So much is revealed on every single page of this 200 page transcript. Victor HATES questions because he's afraid of being exposed. Those who are apt to teach are not afraid of questions. He reacts by deflecting and inventing and by offering word salad. So much bull$hit. It may be challenging for some to hear the obvious deception when listening to tapes, but to read it written on the page, it's glaringly obvious.

His narcissism compelled him to record and transcribe everything. But by doing this, he got too far out over his skis, as someone so insightfully once said on this forum.

Thank God for GSC.

8 hours ago, OldSkool said:

 

I feel this is spot on. With wierwille's doctrinal error such as "keeping our affair in the lockbox" and "everything is ok as long as it's done in believing"...(I'm paraphrasing but hopefully my examples communicate) --- Wierwille was above sin. The depravity he allowed in his own life was backed up with twisted scriptures. Then based on his twisted scriptures he expected others to excuse his depravity. I feel this still goes on today with followers who overlook his obvious sinful life because he taught us the word....barf.

In the Corps teaching on Romas in 1973 Loy Craig asks vic about this. I'm not sure if Craig is trying to justify victor or himself, but the exchange is revealing, in spite of victor's cryptic answer. And you can see vic getting annoyed with Craig for pressing him. 

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

Constant bickering over the interpretation of The Constitution too.  Which party is the CORRECT party?  Why so many?  They hardly agree within.

A document that discussed slavery and how slaves were 3/5 of a person.

3/5 of a person.

What sort of Founding Father would do that to a people!

Monsters!  All of them!

But the Constitution is a self-interpreting document from which we get righteous instruction for making three-fingered gloves for those completely incomplete people. Gloves for all without exception. It's so simple, if you just work it. Three-fingered hands fit perfectly in three-fingered gloves. Bless your little hearts. I wish you could read it in the original.