Charity

Good catch! I've edited the post.

Yeah, when it comes to replacing (as opposed to improving) a belief, you are letting go of one thing in favour of a different one. Letting go is not easy until you have become convinced it's of no value anymore. Carry on developing Rocky...

No, I haven't changed my mind. My post was concerning those who take the bible as the inerrant words of God when raising their children." You bring up a point I've been thinking about recently. As a young atheist, I am learning about displaced anger. It still feels like my anger at times is towards God, and yet I believe there is no proof that God even exists. I'm finding then that my anger is really with the bible – that although I consider it as a book written by men, it proclaims to have divine truth and godly instructions for living. So, just as believers are free to speak about what's in the the bible, I think atheists are free to speak their thoughts about the bible as well. I'm not saying you are implying I'm not free to speak, but it explains where I am coming from when I do.

That's good to hear Rocky. But for those who take it as the inerrant words of God, it often results in fearful and shameful beliefs being taught to children and who then reaffirm those beliefs to themselves once they are grown.

According to the bible, if someone is guilty of Matthew 18:6a (offending one of these little ones which believe in me) and later sincerely confesses his sin, then 1 John 1:8-9 trumps Matthew 18:6a for Matthew's verse is not called an unforgivable sin. Two things concerning the Hebrew 10:26-31 verses (parts in blue are my doing): 1) as an atheist, I don't don't believe them to be true; and 2) the concept of such "severe" punishment for choosing to change one's mind concerning a god who made sin and death for all mankind the result of one disobedient act which itself was because of a most cunning spiritual being allowed to roam freely after his rebellion is a main reason I became an atheist. Besides, who wants to worship such an authoritative love-me-or-suffer-then-die god?

Prov 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. I agree it's a wise saying and offers hope to parents, but it's not always true. And in some cases, it's even a good thing when it isn't.

Faith is a requirement when it comes to believing in God for without it, one would see God and the bible quite differently. But what should someone do when a biblical concept they have put their faith in proves to be untrue? God’s protection is a good example of this. It is something many Christians trust in because of accounts like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and the fiery furnace, David and Goliath, and Daniel in the lion’s den. There are also scriptures like: 2 Thessalonians 3:3 - But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one All of Psalm 91 – I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust…He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler…There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. (Verses 2,4,10) Trusting in these verses, however, does not prevent bad things from happening. Once this happens, continuing to have faith in them is not thinking logically or critically. Instead, having faith becomes playing a game of chance at the least or being completely deluded at the worst. Are there other conclusions to consider?

Thanks for starting this thread a decade ago of which I now find relevant to my life. This post, however, is looking at the topic from the other side of the coin. My children left their Christian upbringing in their teens and now as adults, two of them are atheists and one has no interest in God. As a believing parent, I was concerned for them and over the years, I have prayed for them and made small attempts at changing their minds. The thought of them being left behind, going through the Great Tribulation and not having eternal life was distressful to say the least. Now that I am an atheist myself, that crazy way of worrying is no longer an issue for me. I am happy to discuss evolution with them, and I'm sure they're relieved that I have stopped saying "I'll pray for you" whenever they're dealing with life problems. We all see my deconversion as being "better late than never." I enjoyed reading most of the posts on this thread.

I have heard testimonies of Christian adults (especially males) where they shared how they struggled with Matthew 5:28 as teens and young adults. The guilt of having normal, human sexual thoughts was a tremendous burden to bear. Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Because of the purity culture within churches, many parents find it difficult to discuss healthy sexuality with their kids. Then there is how sick vp taught such matters in his Christian family and sex class which many teens took. I've also heard testimonies of Christian adults (especially women) who struggled with their sexuality once they married. Then there's what Paul writes: 1 Cor 7:9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. What kind of advice is this to give young adults who again are having natural sexual desires?

Did you have any strong beliefs about God before you became involved with twi? You went through a lot more than I ever did and you've come through a lot since leaving. Do you think any of it still has some impact on your life?

The link is an Interesting account of her life. Bernadette Soubirous had a childhood bout of cholera which left her with severe, chronic asthma along with other ailments throughout her life. Eventually she contracted tuberculosis of the lungs and bones, and this long-term illness caused her to die in 1879 at the age of 35. But here's the thing - according to Wikipedia, the apparition of "the lady" in Bernadette's third vision "told her that she does not promise to make her happy in this world, but in the other." However, the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes was built in honor of the apparitions of "the lady" she saw. It is one of the most-visited Catholic shrines in the world, with around four million tourists coming every year. (Wikipedia: Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes) And although God did not heal her during her life, she was canonized by the church in 1933. But because of her religious faith, she will get her rewards in the afterlife – an unprovable concept which requires faith in order to be real in the minds of those living. Where would religions be without the faith requirement?

I like the video - I keep saying I want to begin doing laps again and the video is a good incentive. I can understand someone communing with God while being in the woods. I used to do that myself. When it comes to Prov 2:1-5 though, I don't see world wisdom here. 1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;

If the experiences are being exclusively labeled as miracles (either inside or outside of twi), do you mean they are, are not, or possibly can be actual miracles? I'm not sure of the point you are making by your last sentence.

You are not alone in believing the accounts of what was said to have happened in 1917. There are many travel agencies that book pilgrimages to Fatima. The info below is from the 206 Tours' website. Did You Know These Interesting Facts About Fatima? Over 4 million people make a Pilgrimage here each year. Over 1 million people attended the 100th Anniversary of the Apparitions on May 13, 2017 Some pilgrims crawl 600 feet (182 meters) from the Basilica of the Most Holy Trinity to the Chapel of Apparitions on their knees as an act of penance. Then they circle around the Chapel on their knees too, while praying the rosary. https://www.206tours.com/cms/blog/fatima-facts-where-to-go-what-to-see/ My question is if there has ever been a miraculous event like this one that could not be explained in some other way by experts in different fields such as those cited in the Miracle of the Sun website? The weeping statues were disproved, and the shroud of Turin was proven not to be the authentic burial shroud of Jesus. Is it even possible for supernatural beings to prove themselves in the natural realm of science, physics, etc.?

I was going to start a new thread when I checked and found this one of Raf's which is along the line of what I had been thinking. If I'm getting off topic though of the original reason for this thread, just let me know. Seth Andrews has a YouTube channel called The Thinking Atheist where he usually takes calls. I listened to one recently where he talks for quite a while about finally having had enough of family members trying to get him to change his beliefs back to being a Christian. After years of telling them he's done discussing this with them, he recently received an article about there being fewer atheists because evolution is being proven to be wrong. He was in a fighting mood for the first part of that video - quite interesting what he had to say. Anyway, Andrews has had his share of aggressive Christians calling in or making comments on his videos. I myself have no family members who still believe in God, so this has not been an issue for me since I deconverted. But, I'm interested in what insight others might have as to why some Christians become frustrated, angry or uncivil with atheists. And since this is not a one-way street, I'd like to hear the reverse side as well - why atheists might become frustrated, angry or uncivil with Christians. (I heard John Loftus admit that he has become more jaded over the years when responding to apologists.)

You bring a depth of insight and conviction in your posts about atheism Raf. You wrote, "The MUCH more fair thing to do is recognize that regardless of faith, an ALS diagnosis is more often than not a death sentence with an execution date within two to five years." But that’s when a Christian will likely want to hold onto their faith tighter than ever working hard to build it to the level of Abraham's in Romans 4, “Who against hope believed in hope…And being not weak in faith…He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith...And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.” The fact that, unlike Abraham, God makes no promise of healing in the bible is just a moot point. Some will hold onto their faith if they think there's even a slightest chance that God will answer their prayer. Either way, when no deliverance comes, the idea may surface that it's because there is no god but then along come all the “possible” reasons why prayers weren't answered (websites actually give 5, 6, 7, 10 and even up to 20 of them). IMO, It's like . It's better (healthier) just to not play this guessing game anymore.

Thank you for your post oldiesman. It can happen when someone begins to have questions about God (and consequently his word as well), for whatever reason, decides to look for logical answers both within and outside of the bible and eventually discover those answers give enough reasons for them to permanently change their view that a God exists. I know I've said that my "decision" to no longer believe in God happened one particular evening, but I had been seriously questioning for a while before that night over a couple of issues. I think the fact that I did go back to the bible afterwards to see again what it had to say was a sign of my wanting to confirm that decision. And with time, the confirmation came and continues to come as I learn more.

Chockfull had written, "I had a relative die of MS. Just saw his widow. He was supposedly healed of MS by someone praying years ago. Did that happen? Or did it just go into remission for 20 years? I don’t know." ~~~~~~~ That's the thing oldiesman, why are there these questions? Why can someone not know for sure if God was responsible for Chockfull's relative having 20 years without the symptoms of MS? A Christian might answer, "I know by faith that it was the result of prayer," and this would give enormous comfort to the Christian. When the MS returned and there's medical proof that the person died because of the MS, then the questions return as well - why did it return? If there were prayers said, why were they not answered this time? The faithful Christian will most likely think of a reason that again brings some comfort. An atheist doesn't go through all that. It's simply, we're so relieved the symptoms went into remission. Sadly, the MS returned which is not an uncommon thing to happen. Which scenario is preferable is a personal decision.

Great post Raf about a lot of things. This abridged copy of it is to say thanks a lot for your support (see underlined parts). The video clip above was part of another one called My Top 7 Favorite Hitchslaps. I thought that name was very apropos for what he does in this one. He's so good at not mincing words. I love it. Thanks for sharing it. Your Jonah adaptation was precious. Unfortunate though that your main character drank the Koolaid. You wrote, "As unbelievers, we are not criticizing God in this story, because we are not asked to identify with him." I couldn't get your point at first because even as an unbeliever, I'm thinking h*ll yes, God deserves to be criticized big time. Then I'm pretty sure I got it - it was up to Abraham to tell God what He could do with his insane command. That would make him someone in this story worthy of emulating.

This thread is just over a month old and I wasn’t sure how to navigate the topic when I started it. Even though I have a bit of a better idea now, there are still foggy patches where I don’t know where I’m heading. Sometimes, I’m all over the map going in too many directions. I know there have been some glitches, but I really appreciate what posters have shared. Along with discussing other ideas, discussing scriptures has given me the chance to - see how I think differently about them now - consider how letting go of bible passages make life better, freer - ask questions - find more grounds to support my decision to be an atheist - learn from how different people view them - amend my POV as I gain new insight from others - even notice that I can get angry or judgmental at times. All good stuff so thanks to everyone.

Did you read the whole forward? It was published in 2015 and I did not see who wrote the forward to the book. It doesn't say who published it either. This sums up a lot. It's from page xix: The record of Bishop Pillai’s exposition of Orientalisms in the Bible during his six-week stay with Dr. Wierwille in the summer of 1953, along with other recorded teachings throughout their long association, served as the source for this book. Apart from how vp may have influenced the Bishop, Pillai's source seems to be his culture from living in India.

Live update: The forward brings up vpw on xvi of the forward. He is credited for having a profound impact of the Bishop's life.

I'm reading the forward now to see if it answers the question.

Of the link Waysider put in his post.

Talk of the devil is common in some Pentecostal/Charismatic circles probably because they're heavy into the spiritual gifts, modern day prophets, revivals and other stuff. Casting out devils by preachers on the internet is becoming quite a thing. It's right up there with being slain in the spirit. Just google videos on casting out demons and see how many come up. Greg Locke, a big name preacher, released a movie called "Come Out in Jesus Name" in March of last year. A write up for the movie reads: "Following a startling chain of events, the most controversial pastor in America, Greg Locke, took a 180-degree turn from his mainstream religious traditions and led his church into legitimate revival. He and a diverse group of unconventional preachers then began to spark the most important awakening in the history of the Christian Church - through the most unlikely means - by casting out demons. This fiery film documents the beginnings of their journey. While "Come Out In Jesus Name" is a 90-minute feature length film, it also has a special 2-hour Deliverance Edition that includes (as bonus material) an historic 30-minute invitation prayer and deliverance session led by Pastor Locke during the March 2023 premier that became the largest mass deliverance in Church history... in Jesus name. A Locke Media Film. A Global Vision Bible Church Production." For all the onstage bravado, you can bet there are followers of these preachers living in fear of devil spirits in their own lives.