Charity

I was writing my reply to WordWolf's post when yours came. I've only been aware of the one timeline I heard in twi and as I've said, I haven't spent much time in the book of Revelations but I do better understand your first post on this thread.

I've always read 1 Thess 4:16-17 (about the dead in Christ rising first, etc.) as it stands on its own and not in the context of where it stands within the "end times." Along with the four interpretations of Revelations T-Bone mentioned from Wikipedia (historicist, preterist, futurist and idealist/symbolic), the different views you share people have about Revelations is a lot to consider and I can see how it can be a hot topic for discussion. For me personally, I don't think my brains cells are equipped to handle the depth of this topic, but if anyone wants to discuss it, go for it.

How vp and lcm used the hope to manipulate people into doing their bidding reminds me of one reason I never wanted to read the Book of Revelations. I had heard preachers use the great tribulation to motivate people into becoming saved. Maybe this fear-based approach had some success but I personally hated hearing it. Even Christians from various churches I attended long ago would bring it up when talking to me. Now that I'm out of twi, it's troubling to think of people being left behind after the gathering together but I like to focus on the scripture that says it's the goodness of God that leads people to repentance. I think you've mentioned once about watching David Jeremiah on Sundays. What do you think about his timeline below which shows the rapture happening before the tribulation begins? I haven't yet decided to read Revelations from cover to cover - not even with the comfort of having hot chocolate in my mug but maybe I will one day with a reading buddy.

Stumbled upon this when I was looking for verses on rewards this morning - it's as plain as the nose on my face. I guess my five-senses mind needs a spiritual awakening in order to realize this truth - which brings up the spirit of truth again. Jesus called him the "helper" in (John 14:26) and said he would "glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you." (John 16:14) 1 Cor 15:12-19 12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

I feel similar to WordWolf about receiving heavenly rewards – our service becomes more “me-centered” than “other-centered.” Instead, love feels more of a genuine motivation to reach out and help others. In trying to understand God’s reasons then for giving rewards (not lcm’s or twi’s reasons), I looked at some scriptures this morning. So far, the receipt of rewards seems to fall under 2 categories: 1) for leaders and others who serve in love as servants of Christ, and 2) for standing during persecution. I think God is telling us that if we are willing to serve to do so lovingly and keep the focus on Christ as well as God. Not only are there benefits now but there are also His rewards for having had the right heart. The other reason concerns the difficulty of facing persecution and to help us persevere during these times, God reminds us there will be rewards awaiting us. Both of these reasons help me to feel more comfortable about the topic of rewards. Below are the scriptures I looked at should you want to read them _________________________________________________________________ . CATEGORY #1 (for leaders and others who serve in love as servants of Christ.) 1 Thess 2:7-12; 19-20 Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well. 9 Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you. 10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. 11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory. 19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? 20 Indeed, you are our glory and joy. 1 Cor 3:8-15 (context is believers choosing which leader they will follow) 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 4:1-5 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God. 1 Peter 5:1-4 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away. CATEGORY #2 (for standing during persecution) Hebrews 12:1-3 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. 1 Cor 15:30-32; 58 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. 2 John 1:7-8 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

Like the 1942 revelation vp said he received?

I really like the song Chockfull - it is inspiring, especially the chorus. It makes me think again of the quote I shared in my opening post. "However, there is also little doubt that in many of our churches today, certainly in Britain, scant attention is given to this cardinal doctrine and hope. It is there in our creeds; it is there in our Advent guidelines; it is there in our Bibles: but it is all too often missing from our sermons, our meetings for prayer and our daily lives.” Maybe a lack of enthusiasm or faith in the hope is because of not hearing enough or reading enough about it. Maybe it's finding a church that is alive because of their hope in Christ's coming to gather us together to meet him in the air. Maybe it's growing closer to Christ that makes his return more real. All I know for sure is that the importance of it for believers is a big deal in scripture.

T-Bone, Thanks for sharing your interest and thoughts. I'm not sure if my reply will address any of your concerns above, but here is what I'm thinking. Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24:5-7 about wars and rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom, and famines and earthquakes in various places have been happening since the time Jesus spoke these wars right up to today. It's all horrible, horrible things that people have had to live through. It's also very concerning what the next day, week, month, year...might bring. When will all the pain and suffering stop for us and all of our future generations? The epistles encourage us to look forward to the time of Christ's return for his church. It's the hope we've been given. It is meant to strengthen us as we deal with whatever comes our way in life. Just as I'm sitting here writing this, I remember how excited I get thinking that my autistic grandson will one day receive a new body or I'll get to see my parents again. The biggest joy of them all is seeing Christ for the very first time. But then the doubt sets in. Is any of it true - will the return really happen?

I was googling about Christ's return and saw 1 John 2: 28: 28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. "Continue in him" is kind of hard to do when he is supposedly "absent." Previous verses in this chapter says, 3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. Keeping his commands is "proof" that we know Jesus and again this is kind of hard to do if he is absent in our lives. I'm going to try to change the title of this thread to "The Hope - Knowing Jesus" since this is how we can be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. Even though the title is the opposite of the Absent Christ title, a lot about knowing Jesus was shared in that thread. Hopefully, this thread will bring the two ideas together as 1 John talked about them.

Thank you very much for the helpful info you shared. "...and embrace the freedom to think and choose for myself" I so love to hear others speak about using critical thinking because it is so antithetical to what we experienced in twi. What was shared by others above has helped me to better understand 2 Peter 1. THANK YOU EVERYONE! There is not the one and only MOGFODAT who is responsible for the rightly dividing of God's word which must be then spread over the world. As we all know, vp thought very highly of himself. God's expectation greatly contradicts this. 2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Having discussions like the above

I read the following yesterday when googling about the parousia: “If we are going to assume that one of the signs that a biblical teaching is important lies in the amount of space given to it in the Bible, then it is clear that Jesus’ return to earth is one of the most important teachings to be found in the NT. It is frequently spoken about, clearly taught, and consistently applied from the teaching of Jesus himself right through to the last writing of the NT period. However, there is also little doubt that in many of our churches today, certainly in Britain, scant attention is given to this cardinal doctrine and hope. It is there in our creeds; it is there in our Advent guidelines; it is there in our Bibles: but it is all too often missing from our sermons, our meetings for prayer and our daily lives.” The Parousia: Getting our Terms Right by The Gospel Coalition To be honest, the hope of Christ’s return has never “burned” in my heart because I find it difficult to believe it’s really going to happen. One obvious reason is because Christ has been absent for my entire Christian life up until a few months ago so why would I have an intense desire to see him. Another reason is that the idea of our works here on earth being judged by Christ resulting in receiving or not receiving rewards had been poisoned by things like lcm saying something like “I don’t want to have to duck at Christ’s return” in the context of being a “doulos slave” or an “athlete of the spirit.” It’s distressing because if I claim to believe the scriptures about everything else, then why would the parousia seem to be so farfetched to me. This doubt often gnaws at my belief that God even exists. I’m wondering how others think and feel about Christ coming back and how a belief in the hope affects their lives.

I agree wholeheartedly - the 1942 promise was a cleverly devised manipulation technique that thousands of people bought into and who later deeply regretted doing so. From what I've read on different threads, vp was known for falsely prophesying future events and even claiming he and his ministry had actually stopped one from being fulfilled - I think it was the takeover of the US that was supposed to happen. What you say does make me wonder about what the real gift ministry of a prophet is today.

If I sound to anyone like my goal for starting this thread was to find the one true “inherent integrity and accuracy of the word,” I apologize. Old ways of thinking still pop up now and again. It’s great to be able to discuss doctrine without everyone needing to be “like minded.” I enjoyed reading your explanations of verses 16-19, especially verse 19. Fear temporarily robbed Peter of this faith when he later denied knowing Jesus, but this faith was restored in him when he got to be with the resurrected Jesus and see his ascension and later on receive the gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost. What great things he went on to do as shown in the book of Acts. 2 Tim. 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God a may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (NIV) 2 Timothy repeats the truth in 2 Peter 1:20-21 on how or by what means the scriptures were written, both OT and NT. I think 2 Peter’s use of the word “prophecy” twice as well as the word “prophets” connect it to the “prophetic message” in verse 19. If this prophetic message refers to the OT only, then 2 Timothy covers it all - both OT and NT.

I agree with what you wrote, “The prophetic word (Scripture) is more complete, more permanent, and more authoritative than the experience of anyone.” But I don’t think it applies to verse 16-18 (imo) for 2 reasons: 1) By the time Peter writes these verses, Matthew, Mark and Luke had been written so his experience was already part of scripture. How could Peter’s verse 19 mean he is ranking Scripture over his experience when his experience is part of Scripture? 2) There was nothing wrong with Peter’s memory as others have said is the reason he wrote verse 19. What he shared about the transfiguration in verses 16-18 did not contradict what the 3 Gospels said about the event. Regarding verse 19, I agree with you that "The “prophetic word” refers not just to the OT major and minor prophets, but to the entire OT. Of course, all of the OT was written by “prophets” in the truest sense, since they spoke and wrote God’s Word, which was the task of a prophet, and they looked forward, in some sense, to the coming Messiah.” So does the context of verse 19 support the idea that Peter was pointing out to the believers how the completely reliable prophetic word would therefore confirm what Peter and the others were telling them about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty? It was not a cunningly devised fable.

Hi OldSkool, I have never spent much time looking at the record of Jesus’ transfiguration in the 3 gospels. I now find it to be very inspiring. The time for Jesus to be arrested, mocked, tortured and crucified was getting closer. He knows from Old Testament scripture just how bad it is going to be for him. Then you read about this miraculous way of God showing his deep love for His son in wanting to prepare him for what’s ahead. I think Jesus, who was a human like us, must have had his mind blown (was deeply affected) when he experienced how His father was showing him the future glory he would be given and, oh yes, I'm sure he was also comforted and strengthened (smile). Questions about 1 Peter 1:16, “For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.” What is your understanding of “when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” in this verse? Who are the “we”? Was the “making known” referring to verbal telling(s) or previous scriptures the believers had received or both? I know at the time Peter wrote 1 & 2 Peter, the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke as well as Paul’s epistles had been already been written. Actually, that reminds me of Peter referring to Paul in 2 Peter 3:14-16a, “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things,

I'm thinking the opposite - that the prophetic word of the Old Testament in verse 19 confirms what Peter said in 1 Peter 1:16 and what he has been saying throughout the context of 1 and 2 Peter. Looking previously at 1 Peter 1, in verse 3, “a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” verse 5, “or a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time,” verse 7, “may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ,” and verse 13, “the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Finally, in 1 Peter 4:13, “but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that at the revelation of His glory you may also rejoice and be overjoyed.” Next, looking after is 2 Peter 3 verses 3 & 4, “Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” In verses 8-10, Peter answers what these mockers said, “But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” Finally, there are verses 14-16a, “Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, 1 Peter 1:16 is in the middle and as I understand it, is still on the topic of the second coming, “16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.”

Thank you.

Hi cman, nice to meet you. You're right, the verse doesn't say "second" coming. I based that assumption on what I read in the following commentaries on this verse found on Bible Hub. How do you understand "we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ," as describing a more sure word of prophecy. Barnes' Notes on the Bible The power and coming - These two words refer to the same thing; and the meaning is, his "powerful coming," or his "coming in power." The advent of the Saviour is commonly represented as connected with the exhibition of power. Matthew 24:30, "coming in the clouds of heaven, with power." The "power" evinced will be by raising the dead; summoning the world to judgment; determining the destiny of men, etc. Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers The power and coming.—The power conferred upon Christ after being glorified in His passion and resurrection, and his coming again to judgment. (Comp. 2Peter 3:4; Matthew 24:3; Matthew 24:27; 1Corinthians 15:23; &c., &c., where the same Greek word is used.) In this power He will come again. His first coming at the Incarnation would neither be the usual meaning of the word nor would suit the context. Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ] The “coming,” here, as in every other passage of the New Testament in which the word occurs, is the Second Advent, not the first. The mind of the Apostle goes back to what he had witnessed in the glory of the Transfiguration, as the pledge and earnest of that which was afterwards to be revealed.

Thanks T-Bone. I really appreciate the feedback. I'll reply with more questions later.

What is the “completely reliable prophetic message” mentioned in 2 Peter 1:19? “We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.” (NIV) I have always understood this to mean that Peter’s human memory of the transfiguration of Jesus (16-18) was fuzzy at best so in contrast to this, he says it’s the scripture that’s a sure thing and to rely only on it (not on his own recollection). I don’t think this is what verse 19 is saying at all. In verse 16, Peter says that what they told the believers about the second coming of Christ in power was not like cunningly devised stories/fables. In other words, it was the truth. Then using the word “but,” (in contrast to these fables), he goes right into his eye-witnessed account of the transfiguration of Jesus on the mount. Since, the words Peter were writing here were inspired by God, they were then as they are now scripturally true. Nowhere in the context is the weakness of Peter’s recollection mention. Verse 19 as shown above does not say “we instead have the prophetic message because it’s more reliable.” It says, “We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable. “Also” means in addition to. So if verse 19 wasn’t written to replace Peter’s eye-witnessed account, then why was it written? What does the “prophetic message” mean? To what is the prophetic message in this verse referring? Why is it a sure word of prophecy as written in the KJV?

Okay, you checked it out, you believed it was right so now you come on GSC to teach it just as twi teaches it. So now I'm saying I don't support your belief in it or twi's belief in it. What Raf has to do with any of this is beyond me. Case closed.

Case closed then - no further comment from me is necessary.

Mike you didn't respond to what I wrote about the word "hid" being used in comparison to being "taken up or received." Instead you begin again with the being hidden doctrine - "Besides hidden" - and then you moved on to a difference verse (2 Cor 5:16) which speaks for itself. "Seated at the right hand of God" and "Appointing us as his ambassadors" does not mean Jesus is hidden. I know from scriptures about Jesus before the ascension and I know from scriptures about Jesus after the ascension. You keep talking about his personal presence because it supports twi's doctrine of the presently absent Christ.

It's great to read scriptures Mike - thanks for sharing them. They clearly speak of Jesus going away and coming back again. However, these scriptures do not speak about being hidden like you claim Acts 1 does so I think it's a case of comparing apples to oranges.

Mike, You have made such a doctrine about this hidden Christ based on Acts 1:9 that I wanted to show you the following: 1) The word "hid" is used only for the ascension in Acts 1:9. As far as I know no verse after that refers to Jesus as being hidden as you do above. 2) According to the the 32 versions or translations of this verse shown on Bible Hub, the word "hid" is used in 9 of them while "taken up or received him" is used in 23. 3) However, compare this to verse 11, “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven,” and you'll find that all 32 versions or translations shown on Bible Hub say either "has been taken" or "was received." So out of the 64 usages of either the Greek word "hupolambanó" (meaning to take or bear up, receive) in verse 9 or "analambanó" (meaning to take up, raise) in verse 11, "hid" is only found 9 times. Very weak support to build a misleading and confusing doctrine on. By the way, T-Bone quoted some very interesting things about this cloud a few posts back. It was under his heading "Say, how about that cloud!"