Charity

Case closed then - no further comment from me is necessary.

Mike you didn't respond to what I wrote about the word "hid" being used in comparison to being "taken up or received." Instead you begin again with the being hidden doctrine - "Besides hidden" - and then you moved on to a difference verse (2 Cor 5:16) which speaks for itself. "Seated at the right hand of God" and "Appointing us as his ambassadors" does not mean Jesus is hidden. I know from scriptures about Jesus before the ascension and I know from scriptures about Jesus after the ascension. You keep talking about his personal presence because it supports twi's doctrine of the presently absent Christ.

It's great to read scriptures Mike - thanks for sharing them. They clearly speak of Jesus going away and coming back again. However, these scriptures do not speak about being hidden like you claim Acts 1 does so I think it's a case of comparing apples to oranges.

Mike, You have made such a doctrine about this hidden Christ based on Acts 1:9 that I wanted to show you the following: 1) The word "hid" is used only for the ascension in Acts 1:9. As far as I know no verse after that refers to Jesus as being hidden as you do above. 2) According to the the 32 versions or translations of this verse shown on Bible Hub, the word "hid" is used in 9 of them while "taken up or received him" is used in 23. 3) However, compare this to verse 11, “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven,” and you'll find that all 32 versions or translations shown on Bible Hub say either "has been taken" or "was received." So out of the 64 usages of either the Greek word "hupolambanó" (meaning to take or bear up, receive) in verse 9 or "analambanó" (meaning to take up, raise) in verse 11, "hid" is only found 9 times. Very weak support to build a misleading and confusing doctrine on. By the way, T-Bone quoted some very interesting things about this cloud a few posts back. It was under his heading "Say, how about that cloud!"

Mike, actions speak louder than words, especially inaccurate ones. vp's teaching about wanting others to see Jesus falls flat on its face by everyone who knows how he utterly failed to do this and what a total hypocrite he was. Their testimonies to this fact are found throughout the threads on GSC. After reading the article a few times, I see that vp repeatedly links up his words about Jesus to the "word." When they want to see Jesus, who he is, we can show them God's Word and the greatness of Jesus Christ's position in the Word. If you want to see Jesus Christ through God's Word, you need to move, take action. Zacchaeus took the initiative and climbed up into that sycamore tree. I want to tell you, whenever there are men and women desiring to know the Lord Jesus Christ, they will have that desire met according to God’s Word. The only way you'll ever know who Jesus Christ is to come to God's Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation. For me, the many times vp uses "God's word" or "the word" are solely an advertisement for twi since twi markets itself as being the only group having the accuracy and integrity of the "word" because of him. For someone like me who no longer respects him as a researcher, writer, teacher, a Christian believer or even as a man, this chapter is a dud.

But Mike didn't vp say the law of believing works for saint or sinner alike? I thought he had. Sinners are not interested in God's promises but some might be interest in red sports car. So shouldn't the law of believing work for this sinner?

This is where I'm at right now Mike - I am searching for knowledge and understanding in addition to what vp says about a topic so I can then compare the two. 1 Thess. tells us to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” After spending a lot of today reading 2 Peter 1 over and over again, I focused in on verses 16-19. I read different versions and commentaries as well as used Bible Hub's interlinear website. Then I compared it to what you said above, "he ends it with saying he also has something more sure than those memories." I read something different in those verses. So the question now is - do you want to know what I'm thinking? If you do, I'll share it in a brief reply. If you don't want to consider a different point of view - that's okay, I won't share it. No judgment on my part either way.

You used the word "present" twice - once in all caps. Present only means being in a particular place. So once Christ has given you life and is now present (where?) in you, what else is he doing in you? Please answer Yes or No Mike - After Jesus was baptized with holy spirit from God, did God stop having a relationship with him? Did Jesus stop having a relationship with Him either as Yahweh or as His father? Did Jesus only go by the written word in the Old Testament when he ministered to others here on earth?

Acts 1:11 - This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” What is Jesus doing in the meantime Mike? He's not sitting on the right hand of God twidling his thumbs. I think being head of his church might keep him pretty involved with us - don't you?

I'm beginning to think Mike's only hope is to go traveling on the road to Damascus and look out for a bright light from heaven. Maybe such an experience would make Mike see just how present Christ is in our lives. Then Jesus can send him to preach to the lost souls in twi. Seriously though, this man needs deliverance.

Hi Twinky, You have been led to a beautiful place in your walk with Christ after all the foulest of foul crap you experienced in twi and even for years after leaving twi. I become very much at peace whenever you share personally about God in your life. I admit that I'm one to get myself tied up in knots when dealing with twi's handling of the scriptures. It's still new for me finding out about what others began posting about years ago, so I can get pretty intense about things. I've written about my anger and shock from seeing the errors in vp's teachings and realizing the harmful effects they have on believers. I've also talked about my joy when learning the truth about having a relationship with Christ. The thing to remember is to relax and listen to the spirit during this process. John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come

Your quick reply above concerns only my first 8 words - the rest (called the context and the main point), you never even touched on. God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father? John says that's just how we are to be with God and with him.

Yep, "thesaurus.com" gives 47 synonyms for hidden - not one is "absent." When we played "hide and seek" growing up, we were hidden but still present. If we were absent (left the playing area), the poor seeker was plain out of luck

Hi Mike, even if the "absent Christ" phrase happens only those 2 times, the reality of it shows up in many of the practices within twi as this thread shows. One of those practices is how twi reinforces this belief in their doctrine without ever using that specific phrase. If you read the following, you'll see what I mean and if you reply, please speak specifically about what is written. Thanks. ____________________________ The words in purple below are taken from twi's article on the Great Principle (GP), the website for which is shown on page 1 of this thread. Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say. However, nowhere in this verse does it say the spirit of truth learns from God. We can see this again in verse 15. Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit] shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit. This verse does not say “God…teaches…” Jesus says that all the Father has is his (Jesus’), then he says the spirit of truth shall take of mine (Jesus’) and shall shew it unto you. The Spirit of truth takes from Jesus! Jesus got the ax by twi! The next verse – which they left out in their article – confirms verse 13. 14 He [the spirit of truth] will glorify me [Jesus] because it is from me [Jesus] that he will receive what he will make known to you.

Were all these interpolations* and this egocentric* theology in Stiles' book as well so that vp copied them into his own book and the pfal class? If these did not come from Stiles but from vp himself, it seems he would have had to persuade or pressure many others in twi, including the research department, to go along with him because he messed with so many verses to come up with the GP.

I believe you're right. I'm going through the verses more carefully this time, and so far Jesus giving his disciples authority is mentioned only in this context.

I haven't read your post yet, but I might have to throw that catch back into the lake. Matthew 10:11 says, "1Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness." I'll post more later.

According to vp, the word takes the place of the absent Christ. I think twi uses that phrase "Christ in you" to support something Mike has often said in his posts. Since Christ is hidden or not-visible in the 5 senses, it is up to way believers to manifest Christ to the world. So again, the focus is on the individual believer to be "Christ-like" (since he's absent and all) and that gives rise to people following way leaders instead of Christ. I sent this post to Mike yesterday on the "Absent Christ" thread as a reply to an older post of his where he had written: "How many times does it say Christ is currently HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses?" My reply was along the line: "God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father in heaven? John 17:20-23 says that's just how we are to be with God and with him."

I can see from your post how the "flowchart" you had previously shared (and I still agree with) does not convey the incredible interagency between God, the Son and the holy spirit as laid out in the epistles such as Galatians. I began reading Colossians today and I marvel at how God, Christ and the holy spirit worked together to reconcile us back to God and continue to work together to help us live out that reconciliation. For example: Col 1:9b-13 We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, 10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11 being strengthened with all power [via holy spirit] according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, 12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Oh, forgot that twi will just use the "your spirit" theory to rationalize "exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis." Again they prove deceitful in their handling of God's word by using the "bait and switch" con. They bait you by "namedroping" God (where He isn't) when they say "exousia is God-given" so you can "exercise the dunamis." THEN they switch it over in the GP to since it is your spirit, you actually control it. In other words, you (NOT GOD) give yourself the right and privilege to control the spirit because, after all, it is your spirit. Your spirit, your authority - it's all about you, you, you!

https://thewayinternational.com/operating-the-gift-of-holy-spirit/ The following paragraph is from the above article: "These four types of power all come together when we operate our gift of holy spirit. The potential power (dunamis) given to each born-again believer is exercised and put into operation by our freewill decision because we have the authority and right (exousia). God energizes (energeō) the power as we believe and decide to act, resulting in the manifestation of that power (kratos), power with an impact." A verse is given for each Greek word except exousia. Written earlier in the article is, "Next, exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis." Instead of a verse, they go into the old "driving a car" example. I found this curious, so I did a quick check on Bible Hub for the Greek word, and I didn't see a verse about exousia and the believer having it to "operate the spirit." It showed the following who have/had it: Jesus (both in the gospels and in the epistles), the god of this world, the apostles but only in the context of how they conducted themselves with the church and others but only in the earthly realm. Since the statements above are used to support twi's GP, does anyone know of scriptural backup for this?

I was thinking about something today and found this old post of yours so I could share my thoughts with you. God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father? John says that's just how we are to be with God and with him. John 17:20-23 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,that all of them may be one, Father, JUST AS you are in me and I am in you. May they ALSO be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Mike said: The main strategy in conducting an Excellors' Session was FEAR MANAGEMENT. Me: There was so much fear because the focus was on people to perform, especially when called on to "manifest" in a "believer's meeting." Instead of practicing/pretending to SIT and interpret to overcome their fear, maybe they should have been shown from day one in the Word how to have a closer relationship with Christ. Mike said: People taking the Intermediate Class, especially for the first time, would have all sorts of fears and concerns about the genuineness of their SIT, and even greater fears about getting T.I.P. genuine. Me: Genuine - as opposed to fake. Your description of an excellors' session is a 5-senses (mechanical) approach to spiritual matters which are energized by the holy spirit - NOT an excellors' leader. Mike said: Excellors' Sessions were supposed to be soothing love sessions where perfect love casts out all fear. They were supposed to be relaxing and fun, as well as horizon expanding. People needed to be able to make mistakes with T.I.P., and then see that all is easily forgiven, and then try again. Me: twi was responsible for the fear in the first place because of their doctrine - the way that fear eased (if at all) was because twi was heaping them with enough praise during these "love fests" that people felt more comfortable performing. Also Mike said: "then see that all is easily forgiven?!" - Ooops - I thought forgiveness was needed after someone sinned. Knowing that I could sin while "manifesting" sure would put the fear of God in me!!! This was a quick reply as my grandson has arrived .

On a recent reply to T-Bone, I wrote, “I still speak in tongues for people when I pray for them…I know the choice to SIT will be mine…” I read this again this morning and realized that what I said amounted to "me making a deliberate decision to 'operate the spirit' and SIT." So naturally I got a teeny tiny bit confused and then I remembered one of the websites you had mentioned to me. So I've just started to read the 1 Cor 12-14 thread for better understanding of what the hell heck is going on. So thanks again WordWolf.

And it didn't stop with just that one. More kept popping up along side. I kept clicking on them hoping they would stop...but they didn't! As the Grinch would say, "Oh, the smiles, smiles, smiles, smiles." “O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from all those teeth?” Truly horrifying - Bravo T-Bone! It was a "snapping" good time!