Charity

Your personal relationship with God right after becoming His child makes me curious as to who ministered the Word to you at the time. This bonding between you and God seems to have been pure, uncontaminated by man-made traditions or rules. Your acceptance of Christ came without “need-to-do next steps” and the subsequent guilt and conditional feelings of love to burden you. What a breath of fresh air to see you experience this. Also, the wonder of your trust in God that when He spoke to you, you immediately obeyed his voice (which in turn saved your life) is so precious. How things must have changed when you took on the heavy yoke of twi. And now to see that you have regained your relationship with a loving and passionate Father who cares for you, his child, is very inspiring.

Hi OldSkool, https://thewayinternational.com/operating-the-gift-of-holy-spirit/ According to the above website, Twi teaches that "the nine manifestations of holy spirit operate under a "basic" principle and this "great" principle, according to them, operates in this manner, "God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out." (Underlining is mine.) Their "great principle" is not only inaccurate and harmful, it is full of pride as you spoke about in your post. According to James 4:6 and 1 Peter 5:5, the opposite of God resisting the proud is that God gives grace to the humble and being humble is to accept that God's miracles are according to His ways and purposes. Mary did not pray or believe for a miracle that she would become pregnant with a son who according to Luke 1:32,33 "32 ...shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." But God had a purpose in mind and knew Mary was humble as stated in verse 38 "And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." God knows our hearts and just as with Mary and OldSkool's dog Bella, some miracles are God acting in power to fulfill His purposes without any human interaction. In other words, there was a purpose for both these miracles and that's why God did them. Awesome sharing OldSkool!

Thank you Rocky. As to what you said about my feeling safe enough to be personal on GSC, this has been true since the first time I posted on the Absent Christ thread. It was and still is the understanding and empathy shown by many of the posters that has helped me to open my heart to what I dealt with in twi and to all Christ has been doing in me since being on GSC. What you wrote about emotional inheritance is intriguing. I can see how it most likely contributed to my desire to be part of twi when I was 18. I’m wondering as well how this inheritance is playing out in my life now. I’ve just placed a hold on Atlas’ book at the library – I’m fourth in line. Thanks for mentioning it. It is noteworthy to me how you continue to learn so much from the books you've shared on GSC as part of your own working through things that are on your heart and mind. You are a man on a journey . (Use the space bar before the yellow dude and you can make him walk .)

I can see that what you said about "TWI-mindset desires to control the power of God" was quite evident in Mike's initial post on this thread. I remember when I got back home after taking the advanced class, I immediately heard of a gentleman in our fellowship who had just passed away. I literally was all set to go and raise him from the dead but my wow coordinator from a few years back was with me and stopped me. I can't remember what her reason for doing so was. But that was my first thought of what to do. I'm not saying now that the ac put that idea in my head because I have since forgotten what was taught in it but it does reflect that mindset of controlling the power of God. I imagine the frustration and disappointment you described -"So I was up…then down…up…then down…up…then down" might also have been due to the hype and dubious teaching of the law of believing. When it comes to the healing of my 8-year-old grandson with non-verbal autism, I see it now as a walk with God to understand his ways and purposes and trusting his eternal love and goodness that whether in this life or when Christ returns, he will be healed.

I can see how for EVERYONE, God healing George of the congenital limb defect in his one arm would be a spectacular miracle - I would have as well. But I think that the expectation by everyone that God would do it at that specific part in pfal speaks of a misunderstanding of what a miracle is. A miracle is according to God's plan and purposes - not according to ours. Where was George's prayer in all of this? By your own words as outlined in red above, George HAD it! The desire for this miracle was obviously in the minds of everyone else, but was it in George's? Did the believers talk to him as if he needed this miracle to live a more than abundant life? Another thing is that there was no mention in your story, especially in the green high-lighted part, about giving any glory to God should such a miracle had happened. I'm pretty sure there would be many who would have given the glory to vp and pfal. I believe there is a lot of unlearning about miracles and healings that need to be done.

You are so right OldSkool – thank you for pointing this out. The deliverance you experienced in your life is a testament to miracles happening in this day and time. Mike’s opening post on this thread said, “We did not see any such spectacular miracles. Maybe there were some, but word seemed to not get around much about them if they did happen.” (Previously, he was referring to a miracle that never happened [as far as he knew] to George who had a congenital limb defect in one arm.) T-Bone wrote in the post before yours, “By leadership and groupthink I was prodded…motivated to crave power…but all the hype of the ministry classes and their dubious content left me frustrated and disappointed.” (I will reply to Mike’s and T-Bone’s posts to share my thoughts directly with them.) ______________ I've now realized that I had narrowed my definition of a miracle to the ones physically seen throughout the Bible, but the following websites define a miracle as such: “A miracle is an event that is inexplicable by natural or scientific laws and accordingly gets attributed to some supernatural or praeternatural cause.” Wikipedia "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs" https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › mira... "an unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god because it does not follow the usual laws of nature" https://dictionary.cambridge.org › dictionary › miracle “an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.” https://www.dictionary.com › browse › miracle ______________ What happened to Saul on the road to Damascus – the bright light, his conversation with Jesus and his sudden blindness - was a “spectacular” miracle witnessed by the men who travelled with him. But I think just as miraculous was what Paul said in Galatians 1 concerning this event, “ 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen.” How did God accomplish this other than the work of the holy spirit in Paul’s life? Every time someone gets born again, it’s a miracle. Is not every time God works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Phil 2:13) a miracle according to these definitions? Maybe if we recognize these extraordinary internal events also as miracles which happen every day in believer's lives, then we won’t find such outwardly signs of miracles as recorded in the Bible so far-fetched or outside our reach.

I want to emphasize that I do not believe the word "believe" in verse 19 has anything whatsoever to do with the law of believing. The word "believes" means to trust and the one we are to trust is God. T-Bone had written earlier on this thread, "what I acknowledge is that God is all-powerful, and that He is limited only by His own designs and purposes – and we should not assume we know all about His designs and purposes." I agree with T-Bone. The manifestation of faith needed to do miracles and healings is dependent upon receiving revelation from God and this revelation is dependent upon God's plans and purposes. This revelation from God could be what Paul is praying for when he says in Eph 1:17 "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:" What Paul is praying for must be God's will which means God wants us to desire these things which will glorify Him. The fact that it all seems just out of my reach makes me wonder why that is. Sorry, I know I'm getting a bit personal here but it is what it is.

Yes, but that's not what the "slogan" says. If you have to add conditions in order for "all 9 all the time" to be true, then the slogan is untrue and shouldn't be used (imo).

T-Bone, you wrote above, "so there is nothing saying this stuff can’t happen again because no one gets to say what God can and cannot do." The fact that Paul's prayer is part of the scripture in Ephesians 1 seems to tell me that this stuff can happen again. What Paul prays for the church later in chapter 3 would certainly apply to us today. 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. I think the idea Mike had for this thread - the scarcity of miracles - is worth pondering.

The reason I posted these verses is because of how they lead up to verses 19-23. Verse 19 talks of the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power which he wrought in Christ when he raised him from the dead… I believe these verses are referring to God’s miraculous power to us-ward who believe. Do these verses hold at least one of the keys as to why there might be a scarcity of miracles as opposed to God having a budget and there being double doors? I don’t know – I’m only asking the question to which I'd really like to know the answer. (It does help to read all the verses that come before verse 16. They speak of at least 10 things God has already done for us as believers in Christ.)

I think of Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1 often and wonder how it can become a reality in our lives. 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

I'm just going to focus on this part of your sentence that "signs, wonders and miracles didn’t follow victor." Wasn't it vp who taught that believers can operate all 9 all the time? If this was true then doesn't it contradict what you are sharing now about "the tight budget that God limits Himself to?" How do you reconcile the two?

I left twi over 30 years ago and have not been comfortable in any church all that time. My mind kept judging their doctrine no matter how loving and accepting the people were. When I began to spend time on GSC, beginning with the Absent Christ thread, I began to see how much of twi's doctrine on the holy spirit field, the law of believing and the "word takes the place of the absent Christ" was inaccurate and had crippled my walk with Christ. It's only been four months and now I've started to fellowship with Christians in a church where I feel at home. A lot of what I'm seeing there lines up with what I've learned on GSC. The important point to realize is that for me, I needed to begin having fellowship with Christ before I could fellowship with others who belong in his body outside of twi. What helped me to connect with my Lord was posting on GSC so the believers there could show from scripture how it is God's will that we have fellowship with Christ. Once I understood that and I could open the door to receiving him, he went from being someone I knew about in my head to being someone alive in my life. I still read and send posts on GSC so I can continue learning and maybe help others as I've been helped.

all our hearts, soul, mind and strength (that covers with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength I think you're right - vp probably did teach Mark 12:30 but by not teaching that we were to love Jesus Christ in the same manner, I think they left out an imperative part of God's will when teaching about it in pfal. with all our heart - 2588 kardía – heart; the center and seat of spiritual life, "the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors" with all our soul - psuché: breath, the soul (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality. with all our mind - 1271 diánoia (from 1223 /diá, "thoroughly, from side-to-side," which intensifies 3539 /noiéō, "to use the mind," from 3563 /noús, "mind") – properly, movement from one side (of an issue) to the other to reach balanced-conclusions; full-orbed reasoning (= critical thinking), i.e. dialectical thinking that literally reaches "across to the other side" (of a matter). with all our strength - 479 ischus: strength, might (from the Gk root is, "force" and 2192/exō, "have") – properly, force to overcoming immediate resistance.

twi's website says the following about their new pfal class, "The class sessions unfold the Word of God as the will of God to answer such crucial questions as: 1. How can I know what God’s will is for my life?" (Wasn't this also on the old green sign up card?) Here are a couple of questions and answers. 1) What is the will of God concerning our love for Him? Mark 12:29-31 is one place that gives an answer: Mark 12:29-31 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” 2) What is the will of God concerning our love for Christ Jesus? 1 John 5:1 - Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. If we are to love God according to Mark 12:30 and if we are to pass this love onto His son as in 1 John 5:1, then we are to love Christ with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength (that covers the gamut). This is the will of God. Does the pfal class teach this? Does the ministry of twi consistently teach and practice this? IMHO and . The Way International has utterly failed to come through on their #1 pfal claim concerning the #1 will of God. Has this affected our lives? Of course it has. Because of this broken promise, followers of twi cannot experience what Paul prays for us in Ephesians 3. Ephesians 3:16-19 – 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. This is a lot bigger than having a head knowledge of what Christ has done for us.

Thanks Colshevik - I'll check it out.

It's interesting how that works. Just yesterday, my husband read the following to me from Gabor Mate's book the Myth of Normal (Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture). He said it reminded him of your last president and I said it reminded me of wierwille. "The negative view of self may not always penetrate conscious awareness and may even masquerade as its opposite: high self-regard. Some people encase themselves in an armored coat of grandiosity and denial of any shortcomings so as not to feel that enervating shame. That self-puffery is as sure a manifestation of self-loathing as is abject self-deprecation, albeit a much more normalized one. It is a marker of our culture's insanity that certain individuals who flee from shame into a shameless narcissism may even achieve great social, economic, and political status and success." Where he got his negative view of self and when did he started developing it would be interesting to know although I can understand many thinking "who cares." It doesn't change the fact that he was a faker and a bait switcher and a liar who was able to convince people they were living the more than abundant life he promised pfal would give then when in reality they weren't.

Instead of overcoming worry and fear which the pfal class was promised to do for us, Twi used a lot of fear and humiliation to keep people from leaving or disagreeing with them. From what I've read, many leaders became like stalkers - always keeping their 'i's" on other leaders lower on the totem pole which caused them to keep having to look over their shoulders. When people do leave, many take their waybrain with them so it takes a long to very long time to become free of it. That's the cult's definition of leadership. Christ is the opposite of every cultish thing about twi so turning to him is a whole different experience that can bring wholeness. He is always with us, but in a loving way. He knows instantly when we are having mental health issues because he dwells in our hearts/minds. He has empathy for us because he understands what we're going through since he was tempted in all ways like we are. He works in us so we can overcome whatever our struggles are (unlike twi's way of just telling people to "renew your mind" or "you're not believing"). We are in the right place to overcome worry and fear when we turn to Christ.

Anyone who reads this thread will see how Mike's many locked-in beliefs have been dealt with so why continue to spend any more time correcting him? As for me and my computer, we're done. (No matter what that piece of wise advice claims we should never do - "never say never.")

That can send you a few subliminal and not so subliminal messages your way.

I'm older now yet I still find myself doing . In fact, I'm doing it a lot more now that I'm over 60. Can you share more about what you mean?

Gold idea Rocky. There's another step if one wishes to use it. That's where you share a suggestion that you think might be helpful such as, "It would help if you/we could..." It's just a way of expressing what one needs. The key is to ask respectfully instead of insisting such action must happen which would then hint back to "it's all your fault so you need to fix it".

I know from experience what it's like to deal with mental health issues such as depression and anxiety. The recommended treatment for me has been the use of both medication and therapy although an either/or option can work as well for others. It's all very individualized. Medication is for chemical imbalances in the brain and therapy deals with the thoughts and feelings in the mind. I find having knowledge of how our brains work is helpful as well. A lot of progress has been made in the area of neuroplasticity which is the brain's ability to change, reorganize, or grow neural networks. Terms that help to define it are having a "growth mindset" and "rewiring the brain" so habitual behaviors can be changed. This is a website that explains it in more detail. https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-brain-plasticity-2794886 Then there's the spiritual side of healing which is the most powerful of all but only if you have sound doctrine. Unsound doctrine can make matters worse because on top of everything you're already going through, you can't understand why you're not really getting better even though you're doing everything twi tells you to like doing retemories and applying the law of believing (as mentioned above) and I'll add having a "renewed mind." I found that my symptoms "improved" but eventually came to realize that spiritually I was merely standing on sand instead of a rock (you know what happens when the wind and rain beat on each) . So like OldSkool and penguin2, I too am working out my salvation because doing so can improve mental health. My main issue is learning how to stop trusting in my own works to bring about deliverance but to instead trust God to do the healing because of His faithfulness in keeping His promises. My goal is have a greater understanding of the verses below which speak of God, Christ, spirit, the mind, power, strength and trust. Knowing how all these work together would be life changing (Bravo God! ). Ephesians 1:18-19 I pray that the eyes of your heart (mind) may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe (trust). Ephesians 3:16-17 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being (mind), 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. Looking forward to learning more from this thread (thanks OldSkool for starting it)!

Boy you are devious. Did you not read points 2 & 3? Did I mention anything about "seeking Jesus" being emphasized. It was quite the opposite.

1. You're locked into the pfal perspective. (no point therefore in replying to vp's errant "church of the bride" teaching) 2. You complain there's not enough variety in the points of view being posted on GSC. (and you seem to have a strong dislike for the ones here who do post their opinions) 3. You feel you are being victimized here. So why are you here if not for the reasons Skyrider laid out in his post yesterday? Why don't you find somewhere else to post where it would be more satisfying to you?