Charity

What kind of relationship did the writers of the New Testament have with Jesus that enabled them to write these books?

Relax Mike, I was using the word "personal" as meaning intimate. Intimate is a synonym for the word personal. According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, "intimate" has several meanings. Here are a few: 1a : marked by a warm friendship developing through long association intimate friends 2: of a very personal or private nature intimate secrets 3: marked by very close association, contact, or familiarity intimate knowledge of the law Does that make more sense to you? If not, I can explain.

I agree that those phrases could be seen as being radical. In reality, I don’t think “their spiritual power” amounts to more than a tap on the shoulder. Here's another phrase that stands out to me: “First and foremost, we each enjoy the fellowship with our heavenly Father. Then in God’s household we enjoy the fellowship of one another AS FAITHFUL FOLLOWERS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST who are eager to stand with resolve, ready to help one another, ready to pray with and for one another, and ready to prevail with power from on high. From: Fellowship - The Way International This phrase could explain why they left Christ out of their first sentence. It ties in with their "you replace the absent Christ" doctrine. The phrase "as faithful followers of our Lord Jesus Christ" sounds so Christian-like yet in this case, I think twi corruptly uses these words to justify how they replace the absent Christ here on earth. So if each one replaces the absent Christ, then by simply having fellowship with one another, they can argue they are having fellowship with Christ. It's a cunningly devised fable in order to corrupt the meaning of Christianity which is to have personal fellowship with Christ himself.

You're welcome. Ask them what they think about my revision. They can use it if they want, it's not copyrighted and I won't ask for royalties.

https://www.theway.org/about-us/fellowship/ Here's the website so you can find out for yourself. You'll see Jesus is mentioned only that one time. https://www.theway.org/about-us/fellowship/ No wonder I still feel embarrassed to mention Jesus when talking to someone about God. While in twi, I learned that compared to God, Jesus was a pipsqueak.

The following was on the "Fellowship" page of twi's website: “First and foremost, we each enjoy the fellowship with our heavenly Father. Then in God’s household we enjoy the fellowship of one another as faithful followers of our Lord Jesus Christ who are eager to stand with resolve, ready to help one another, ready to pray with and for one another, and ready to prevail with power from on high. This is not the order for fellowship as clearly shown in 1 John 1:3-4. Verse 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father AND with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete. First and foremost, our fellowship is with both God and Jesus Christ. Once again, twi gives Jesus a demotion which means a reduction in rank and status. It's so unbelievable and yet so boldy stated. How's this instead: First and foremost, our fellowship is with both God and Jesus Christ our Lord through whom we are able to stand with resolve and be ready to help one another, pray with and for one another and prevail with power from on high as we fellowship together in God's household. The difference is placing the focus on God and Jesus Christ instead of the believer.

One more thing... I found the book, Jesus Christ Our Passover, very moving to read. I saw in painful detail of all that Jesus went through which was then followed by being very touched by his immense love for us as shown by willingly becoming our Passover lamb. It blessed me so much at the time that I wrote a children's version of the book for my son. So I believe the doctrine about the purpose of Jesus' ministry, his death and his resurrection were taught in that book. However, the sad part was that for the time I was in twi both before and even after reading Jesus Christ Our Passover, I don't remember being taught the value and importance of having a relationship with him. Neither did I see one being modeled by the leaders I'd known.

Thanks for understand OldSkool. I'm sure there are many others who also had regrets when looking back at certain aspects of their service while in twi. I can count myself as being one of them. I'm thinking from what you share in your posts that you have found peace since then.

This is one "testimony" I can give about the absent Christ in my life while in twi. When I used to go witnessing, I don't remember bringing up Jesus much at all, certainly not about having a relationship with him. It was mostly about God and twi, pfal and twig fellowships. This must have been the case because for years after being out of twi, I felt uncomfortable mentioning Jesus in my conversations with others about God. It's still somewhat embarrassing even now to imagine me talking about him - the reasons for this I can't exactly put my finger on at the moment. I doubt I would have experienced any of the above if Christ was alive and kicking in twi.

Raf, I know I am a newbie, but I have shared my thoughts in green underneath your own. A question though: Did Jesus ever say God was an “absent Father” because He wasn’t actually present on earth when Jesus was?

Yes Mike and I'll reply to it tomorrow.

Well said T-Bone.

I am so grateful to you OldSkool for taking the time to put the above together. It's clear and precise and absolutely proves from scripture how involved Christ is in our lives. And it so negates the "absent Christ" dogma of twi. As you might remember, I only began posting on GSC recently (in late November of last year to be exact), and it was only after I began reading many of the posts on this thread at the time. That was when I realized that buying into the "absent Christ" doctrine and practices of twi had resulted in me only having an intellectual knowledge of Christ as you wrote about above, "Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesn’t do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplished works." Since then, you and many others helped me to understand that Christianity is all about having a personal relationship with Christ. That's when everything changed between Christ and I. It's like instead of watching the same player in the same old hockey game over and over again , you can now get on the ice and actually play the game with him (or her) . I have made a word document of what you wrote as it's a great reference of truth concerning this topic.

Thanks Chockfull, reading your analysis was easy on my brain cells which helps when delving into the book of Revelation for the first time. I'm sure there will be more food for thought as posts keep coming in.

After thinking about this some more, I realize that claiming to know what "the truth" is was the foundation that twi was said to be built upon and we know that claim is a huge, fat lie and we all know the hurt and arrogance that lie brought into our lives. Claiming to know "the truth" has led in the past to persecution and even wars within the body of Christ. This is not what Christianity is. Jesus spoke the truth and Christianity is about having a personal relationship with him and through him we come to know the Father. Personal means it's between the believer and Christ as we are led by the spirit he gave us. Our understanding of him and his words is meant to be a personal one and we are meant to walk in love towards each other as 1 Cor 13 defines it. All of this has been shared here many times before, even once or twice by yours truly.

I feel like I'm opening a can of worms here but here it goes anyway. A part of me agrees with what you said above, but another part of me thinks about what Jesus meant in John 8:31b-32, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” To double down on this there's John 16:13, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come." Interpretations of verses in the Bible are commonplace and by nature means understanding things differently or even in exact opposition to each other such as whether Jesus is God or not. Then you have the book of Revelation which is interpretation on steroids. What do we do with verses the speak of "the truth?"

Thanks T-Bone. I'm curious about some of the ideas shared above so keeping them in mind, I'll begin by just reading Revelations over the weekend.

In twi, many followers have cult-like leaders who tell them what they should constantly be doing. For a lot of people who were in the corps or lived or worked at headquarters, their lives were pretty much run all the time by top leadership. Some motivations for them to obey leaders could be: in order to get along or get by; for the wages; out of loyalty or because of a desire to please or climb the ladder to a higher position. Thankfully the motivations to serve or help others while in twi can change after leaving and one is no longer under their control. I thought about this when reading Matthew 6 and I found it awesome as it relates to the hope. Jesus gives two motivations for practicing righteousness such as giving to the needy, praying and fasting. One is to do them openly in order to be noticed by others and receive their praise as a reward and the other is to do them in secret where it’s just between you and the God you honor. For those who choose the latter, Jesus says they will be rewarded by God. Jesus concludes with verses 19-21: “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. As I learned more about the hope, the more verse 21 stood out. In this context, “treasures” (being the things we find precious) are either on earth (the rewards that come from men) or are in heaven (the rewards that come from God). Loving and helping others from the heart is in the same place as our treasure in heaven. They are both intrinsically connected! They go hand in hand like two peas in a pod or whatever other idiom you can think of that applies. When you do the first, you are reminded of the second. Or when you remember the second, you do the first. So I can see better now that the reality and joy of the hope is realized every time we love and help others. Instead of the heaviness of heart I felt earlier, it's like on air! Thank God .

I am curious to see what the scriptures say but I'm hoping God kept it simple enough that we wouldn't miss what He has planned for us. Looking forward to hearing back from you.

I was writing my reply to WordWolf's post when yours came. I've only been aware of the one timeline I heard in twi and as I've said, I haven't spent much time in the book of Revelations but I do better understand your first post on this thread.

I've always read 1 Thess 4:16-17 (about the dead in Christ rising first, etc.) as it stands on its own and not in the context of where it stands within the "end times." Along with the four interpretations of Revelations T-Bone mentioned from Wikipedia (historicist, preterist, futurist and idealist/symbolic), the different views you share people have about Revelations is a lot to consider and I can see how it can be a hot topic for discussion. For me personally, I don't think my brains cells are equipped to handle the depth of this topic, but if anyone wants to discuss it, go for it.

How vp and lcm used the hope to manipulate people into doing their bidding reminds me of one reason I never wanted to read the Book of Revelations. I had heard preachers use the great tribulation to motivate people into becoming saved. Maybe this fear-based approach had some success but I personally hated hearing it. Even Christians from various churches I attended long ago would bring it up when talking to me. Now that I'm out of twi, it's troubling to think of people being left behind after the gathering together but I like to focus on the scripture that says it's the goodness of God that leads people to repentance. I think you've mentioned once about watching David Jeremiah on Sundays. What do you think about his timeline below which shows the rapture happening before the tribulation begins? I haven't yet decided to read Revelations from cover to cover - not even with the comfort of having hot chocolate in my mug but maybe I will one day with a reading buddy.

Stumbled upon this when I was looking for verses on rewards this morning - it's as plain as the nose on my face. I guess my five-senses mind needs a spiritual awakening in order to realize this truth - which brings up the spirit of truth again. Jesus called him the "helper" in (John 14:26) and said he would "glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you." (John 16:14) 1 Cor 15:12-19 12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

I feel similar to WordWolf about receiving heavenly rewards – our service becomes more “me-centered” than “other-centered.” Instead, love feels more of a genuine motivation to reach out and help others. In trying to understand God’s reasons then for giving rewards (not lcm’s or twi’s reasons), I looked at some scriptures this morning. So far, the receipt of rewards seems to fall under 2 categories: 1) for leaders and others who serve in love as servants of Christ, and 2) for standing during persecution. I think God is telling us that if we are willing to serve to do so lovingly and keep the focus on Christ as well as God. Not only are there benefits now but there are also His rewards for having had the right heart. The other reason concerns the difficulty of facing persecution and to help us persevere during these times, God reminds us there will be rewards awaiting us. Both of these reasons help me to feel more comfortable about the topic of rewards. Below are the scriptures I looked at should you want to read them _________________________________________________________________ . CATEGORY #1 (for leaders and others who serve in love as servants of Christ.) 1 Thess 2:7-12; 19-20 Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well. 9 Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you. 10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. 11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory. 19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you? 20 Indeed, you are our glory and joy. 1 Cor 3:8-15 (context is believers choosing which leader they will follow) 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 4:1-5 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God. 1 Peter 5:1-4 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away. CATEGORY #2 (for standing during persecution) Hebrews 12:1-3 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. 1 Cor 15:30-32; 58 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. 2 John 1:7-8 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

Like the 1942 revelation vp said he received?