Charity

On top of the time vp actually spent on doing all of the above is the time he spent thinking about them before, during and after - his persistent cravings and lustful desires, his devious and cunning planning, his sick anticipation, his self-proclaimed conquests, etc. Someone who commits so many abhorrent acts for so long without repentance has spent a huge amount of his mental energy dwelling in darkness. As a narcissist, his need to be the center of attraction and to feel superior had to be forefront in his mind. It's hard to think that his new man ever saw the light of day.

You are right about “return” and “second coming” not being in scripture although Heb 9:28 comes close when it says “[Christ] will appear a second time." The reason I asked for a Bible verse for the “absent Christ” is because of the context of my post. It’s on page 77. I had listed the ways in which you talked about the Bible in your recent posts, so at the end I asked, within that context, if this particular phrase was in the Bible. I’ll have to learn how to list posts one under each other and then write a reply to them. I should have included your post about authority in there as well.

Page 70, on Feb 2. "We all agree that Christ is, in some way, absent. In what ways? Well, physical presence, but it would be silly to think that is all. He is also absent in his authority. If you and I have a dispute in that we think he means, we cannot go to him to resolve the dispute. So how do we resolve it? By spirit? Sure, except my spirit tells me I'm right and your spirit tells you that you're right, so how is the third person, who is neither you nor I, able to ascertain who is correctly interpreting the will of God in Christ? Easy. The Word takes the place of the absent Christ. (I hope I haven't misread anything.)

Raf, one way that has been discussed about Christ remaining present is concerning the relationship and fellowship we have with him since he is the head of the body to which we belong. So when one considers how messages are sent back and forth between the brain and the parts of the human body in order to function, it makes sense to me that there is also a necessary 2-way communication going on between Christ and the members of his body. The whole area of Christ communicating personally with believers by way of the holy spirit is new to me but I know from the book of Acts that he does do this. OldSkool lays this out clearly from scripture on page 70 of this thread. I simply want to learn more about how it works so I can apply it in my personal walk with Christ. I am in no position to judge what others are saying Christ told them to do, say or believe. The only exception to this seems to be if it contradicts what the Bible says, but then how useful is this if there is no consensus on what the Bible actually says. (I did read about how personal prophecies given to specific individuals in CES were harmful. Obviously, in hindsight that was a big and those involved can choose to learn from it or not.) I do not know how Christ is dealing with all the division within his body, but I do know it is our responsibility to obey 2 Timothy 2:15, “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.” NASB Will there ever be complete unity in the body of Christ about what the Bible teaches? No, not as long as Satan is still the god of this world. So in the meantime, the discussions on GSC about what one thinks or believes regarding a topic go on, and they will continue to be proven helpful to others.

Raf, You have questioned both Jesus Christ’s authority (Quote: He is also absent in his authority.) and his present lordship (Quote: Jesus IS present in his lordship, directing the affairs of the church in Acts. But what about NOW?) I say that just because we can’t go to him in person to resolve a dispute or because two churches disagree on a point of doctrine does not mean Jesus’ authority is absent or puts in doubt His lordship NOW. This is not just my opinion, it is what the Bible says. You spoke of the Bible in the following ways: · Seriously. The scriptures teach what they teach, whether I accept it as gospel or reject it as fantasy. · I believe the Bible teaches what it teaches. · I think one can look at the Bible fairly and come to a conclusion about what it teaches, even without believing it. · It's only the Word that can resolve disputes · Someone has to be wrong! Who judges? It has to be something outside the populace. The Word? Hypothetically, yeah. · If it serves no other purpose shouldn't the Bible define Christianity? So what does the Bible teach about the Lordship of Jesus Christ? Every Epistle Paul wrote to the church has the same salutation of “Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” except for two where Paul switches things up a bit. Colossians 1:2 “We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” and 1 Thess 1:1 “To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you.” Jesus is as much Lord now as he was in the book of Acts. The word “Lord” means master and a master has authority which is what the Bible teaches. Ephesians 1:20-23 …he (God) raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. The head controls the body whether it’s a human body or the body of Christ. Jesus Christ is the head of his body NOW. The word “Lord” also means a person exercising absolute ownership rights which is what the Bible teaches. Romans 14:8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. Jesus Christ is Lord. It’s decided. It’s settled. There is no doubt about it no matter how many disputes and disagreements there are among believers and among churches? Do you a scripture that says Christ is absent or that the Bible takes the place of the absent Christ?

First of all, thanks T-Bone for your reply - it provides a lot of food for thought. I like how you pointed out from scripture the theme that we are on a journey. As you mentioned, It’s great to have the freedom to choose your own destination and also to have the “HOW to” directions to keep us out of the ruts. There's so much you can glean from this analogy. I’ll have to keep an eye out for more verses like these. The thing that stood out the most to me in Ephesians 3 is what did Paul mean when he wrote that God will strengthen and empower our minds through His spirit. I think about the kind of mind Paul must have had to not only endure all the persecution but also to carry out the incredible ministry God gave to him. Here and in Eph 1:17-19, Paul is praying for God to give this power, strength, wisdom, understanding etc. to the believers, so I wonder where prayer fits in with all this. It's a lot to get into especially when vp basically boils it all down to applying the great principle. All I know is that my mind can use some strengthening from God so it looks like this is my chosen journey for now. Eph 3:16–19 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power(enough strength), together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. (NIV)

There is another version of "Sow a..." which adds an extra line. “Watch your thoughts, they become your words; watch your words, they become your actions; watch your actions, they become your habits; watch your habits, they become your character; watch your character, it becomes your destiny.” ― supposedly by Lao Tzu

Kayne West makes my point for me - dancing is a lot cooler without a toothy grin on your face.

I'll see your 2 cents and raise you 2 more. wierwille: Eph 4:17-19 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed. __________________________________ Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. Paul writes in vs. 16, “in your inner being” which refers to our minds. Our minds are where God strengthens us with His power through his holy spirit. In vs. 17, it says God’s reason for strengthening our minds is so that Christ may dwell in our minds (our “hearts”) through faith. What I remember about "the renewed mind" was that it meant putting the word in our minds. Do you think Paul's prayer in these 2 verses ups the ante to say there's more to it? Like, it's just not what we do but how He then adds to it. Here's another verse. Eph 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart (mind) may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,

Oops - I obviously wasn't paying attention. I watched 20 seconds of the second video and saw it was the same dreaded song with different dancers. Without checking the titles, I ignored the other three because the same creepy dude was front and center. Anyway, I realized my mistake after reading OldSkool's post. Poker Face has the best music - even made the dancing a bit more tolerable.

Yeah, that kind of makes me run out the door and never want to hear those words again. Not the strength and power I was picturing in my mind.

Hi T-Bone, I know the practice of the “renewed mind” was seriously distorted in twi, but I wanted to bring it up since I recently saw a connection between the mind and the holy spirit while reading Ephesians. Eph 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. Usually when I think of being strong, I interpreted it as physical strength. However, Paul is connecting all of them together - strength, power, spirit, inner being and Christ dwelling in our hearts. Since each of them have to do with the mind (i.e., our cerebrum), it all comes back to the "renewed mind." After the mind games played in twi (especially in the corps) and the absent Christ fiasco, what do you and others think and feel about the renewed mind doctrine?

I'n not sure I understand. Did you believe his organization to be a cult at the time? Was it based on the fact that because it wasn't twi, that it was inferior?

Thanks to all the posters on this thread who can read through Mike's posts/crap and speak directly to what he's doing and saying. My head just wants to explode when I read them. Your work to power wash such ramblings is good for one's mental health .

I know Kenneth Copeland has been mentioned on GSC before. He was the first preacher I started following shortly after leaving twi because of his teachings being similar to vp. I didn't stick with him for long though. He has a net worth of $300 million plus a private jet. Here is a quote from his website "How to Present Your Tithe to Jesus." (underlining is mine) The 3 paragraphs in italics are the end part of this "confession in faith." If you’re ready to take your tithing to the next level, present your tithe to Jesus by speaking this confession in faith: Jesus, as my Lord and High Priest, I bring the firstfruits of my income, which You have given me. I expect You to set it before the Father and worship Him with it. I rejoice in all the good which You have given to me and my household. I have listened to the voice of the Lord my God and have done according to all that You have commanded me. Now look down from heaven, Your holy habitation, and bless me, Your son and servant, according to Your riches in glory. Bless my job and the work of my hands as You have promised in Your Word. I declare THE BLESSING is pouring out, and there’s not enough room to receive it! God, You have rebuked the devourer for my sake. The work of my hands will not be destroyed and come to nothing. Today, I am experiencing God’s supernatural increase, and I walk in it by faith. I worship You, Lord, and I call it done, in Jesus’ Name. When you take the time to stop and honor the Lord with your tithe—offering it to Him with prayer, thanksgiving and honor—you will see a powerful change in both your relationship with the Lord and your faith for finances. Don’t let the devil rob you of the blessing that comes from tithing. The windows of heaven are open over you in Jesus’ Name! I don't know anything about how he runs his organization, how hierarchical it is, but based on the name of your thread and the fact he is so big in the faith movement, it probably is and so much more. Well, since his treasure/reward is here down on earth, I'm suspecting there won't be any for him in heaven.

I edited my post to highlight the last paragraph.

Sorry OldSkool, I did not mean for my last post to be attached as a reply to what you had said.

Raf writes the following about Part II: What We Believe = What We Are (from the Blue Book) In the Greek, "faith" and "believing" are the same word. But in English, they are different words. The distinction in English is this: "Believing" places the emphasis on the mental action of the person who believes. "Faith" places the emphasis outside the person who believes and onto the person or thing that is believed. For years we called ourselves "believers." The emphasis was on us. It would be wonderful if we also called ourselves "faithful" so that the emphasis could once again be placed on the One in whom we have faith: God. It is not "the law of believing" that controls the "abundant life." It is the Faithfulness of God to His Word that controls the abundant life. If God was not faithful to His Word, then we could BELIEVE His Word all we want, and it would profit us nothing. Note: Raf uses the context of John 10:10 shortly afterward to redine vp's definition of "abundant life." Obviously, vp never said it was the law of “faith” since faith “places the emphasis outside the person who believes.” The purpose of calling it the law of “believing” is to totally put the focus on us, the believer. Therefore, in twi, not only is Jesus demoted below God, but according to the law of believing (which we’re supposed to have 24/7), God is demoted below us. A double whammy .

My knowledge on this topic is limited to what I have read on GSC. Among the volumes that have been written about how twi has not strayed away from vp, I think I remember reading about a few changes they've made. Have the sexual crimes and abuse stopped just because people someone say it has? Just as in vp days, there's no way of knowing unless victims come forward. It's hard to remember which thread I read this on but recently there was a post that people taking the advanced class are now allowed to have a mortgage. I'll give this some thought. Now if the poster who bets his life on the accuracy and authority of the written PFAL collaterals and still has a connection with the local fellowships of the newest version of twi can give specific examples only about this topic, that might prove helpful. What are the odds for betting on that happening?

What you said above has become my benchmark since coming to GSC. Googles definition of benchmark is " a standard or point of reference against which things may be compared or assessed. Now I attempt to look for Jesus' authority and directives in everything I read in the Bible and what I read on here. It's what's absent in knowing about Jesus only in my mind. It's what's present in knowing Jesus both from the scriptures and from his spirit living in me.

Thanks OldSkool for pointing out from the word what it means to have Christ in us. Along with what you shared, God uses the word riches to describe the wealth of glorious truths involved in having Christ in us. Col 1:27 “To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” Reflecting on this brought to mind what I wrote in a previous post how ‘Christ in you…falls flat.’ My saying this tarnished the glory of having Christ in you in a way that I did not intend. The point I was trying to make is that in order to be transformed into becoming more like Christ, we need to renew our minds not only to the scriptures that describe the nature of Christ being in us but also to the scriptures that teaches Christ living in us. Gal 2:20 says, I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.” That verb “lives” is in the active voice. I learned of the former when I was in twi, but for me now, it's the learning of the latter that is making the difference in my life. What does it mean that Christ lives in us? One way is to see that just as Jesus interacted with his apostles when he lived with them (shown in the Gospels), he also interacts with us now because lives in us (shown in the Epistles). It's a two-way relationship and fellowship they shared with each other.

Great - I got the bathwater link from OldSkool. Thanks for all the info!

Is this it? https://web.archive.org/web/20030713171917/http://www.livingepistlessociety.org/10Blue2.htm

3 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, I dwell in, settle in, am established in (permanently), inhabit. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. In Ephesians 3:2 Paul talks about the administration of God’s grace which he reveals in vs. 3 is the mystery. He goes on to talk about the mystery in vs. 4 (the mystery of Christ), vs. 6 and vs. 9 (the administration of this mystery). Verse 6 explains, This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. I understand that one of the main problems with the "administration" doctrine is that vp used it to teach "to whom it's written" which reduced the applicable portion of the Bible to just the Church epistles. Rev 10:7 above talks about how the mystery of God should be finished. I don't understand how this verse is a problem for the administration of Grace concept which I assume is a reference to Eph 32:2. Can you explain more about what you meant. Thanks, Charity

Hi there, I remember vp talking about "Christ in you" in the class, but I don't remember much about how he taught it. Regardless, the problem is if he taught it one way at a certain place and time doesn't mean he didn't screw it up when teaching it at a different place and time. You say that vp did not ignore that Christ is present through the spirit but don't you think that his work on the holy spirit field is filled with errors? I'm pretty sure I know how you feel about the issue of "speaking in tongues" that comes up at the end of session 12. The "Christ in you" doctrine is great when you're thinking, "Yeah! We have his righteousness!, his holiness!, his boldness!" or "Heh, we can do all things because it's Christ in us!," but imo it falls flat on its face if you don't understand how Christ's spirit works in you. According to vp's "great principle," we operate (work) the spirit which I and others on GSC believe is flat out wrong. (You can check it out on the "Great Principle Whitewashed?" thread if you haven't already.) Like you've done with the blue book, have you reviewed vp's writings about the spirit (which is the Christ in us) to work out what you believed was right or wrong with what he taught? If you've written about it, I'd be very interested in reading it.