Charity

Thanks for replying here T-Bone although you are very good at inserting links that take your readers quickly to previous posts. Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. In verse 34, Jesus refers to "this generation" which includes himself so it agrees with what you quoted above. There is no specific generation which Bickle teaches will either be this one or the next one. I wonder how long his 24/7 prayer room will last (which according to him costs $13,000 a day to operate even though the staff are non-paid employees) before it fizzles out. One last thing, is vp's teaching that Jesus did not know about the "administration" of grace because it was hidden in God until Paul revealed it accurate?

My 3 older brothers and myself are all baby boomers. Then there are these: Generation X – born 1965-1979. - my oldest son Millennials – born 1980-1994. - my daughter and son Generation Z – born 1995-2012 - 2 grandchildren Gen Alpha – born 2013 – 2025 - 5 grandchildren It's weird to think that my 3 kids belong to 2 different generations. I think I'll try calling them by those names instead since I'll only have 2 to get right instead of 3 - less of a chance of mixing up their names. With 10 names altogether to match up with the right person, I'll take whatever help I can get. Please say you know what I mean . (I have no trouble with the names of my son-in-law and 2 daughters-in-law. The 2 cats - I mostly just call them cats - they don't seem to care!)

Thanks Rocky - I agree, soon-to-be cult leaders have to have something to rally the troops around in order to attract followers who unfortunately sincerely believe in the cause and in their leader.

Adam Wittenberg who is on staff at Bickle's IHOP KC writes,"The global end-time worship movement is the Church’s first line of defense against Satan’s activity." (1) Here he is referring in part to Bickle's 24/7 prayer room. And in another article he says, "We are very likely living in the early days of that generation." (2) Bickle's whole ministry is based on his definition of "generation." However, the website below explains why the author thinks the definition of "generation" used by many who are focused on the end times is not accurate. I very much would like to know what you all think about this issue of the word "generation." Thanks! (If this needs to be discussed in doctrinal, I'll post it again there.) https://www.christiantruthcenter.com/end-time-its-definition-beginning-and-end/ Some highlights are: "We usually hold that the last days, last hour and the end time refer to the generation that will see the second coming of Jesus Christ. This is not biblical. The Jews were waiting for the Kingdom to come with Messiah. The Messianic age was termed ‘the latter days, the End Time’ by the prophets. So after Christ came, the Apostles declared that the coming of the Kingdom and the King had taken place. They were declaring that the ‘latter days or End Times’ had begun; the last era in human history had begun. What all history had been leading up to, namely, the coming of God’s kingdom in Christ had come. We know that the Kingdom of God will not fully come to earth until Jesus Christ has put all his enemies, including death, underneath his feet at the events portrayed by Revelation 20:14 (1 Cor. 15:24-28). The Bible declares that End Time began with the coming of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago and will be wrapped up when he finally destroys death after his third coming." (1)https://www.ihopkc.org/resources/blog/worship-end-times/ (2) https://www.ihopkc.org/resources/blog/cant-know-day-hour-commanded-know-generation-lords-return/

Hi, After I read your post, I looked up the verse about having a seared conscience which was cool but I then noticed something else! 1 Tim 4:1-5 1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. To me, these verses read as something that is currently happening so I wondered why Timothy is making reference to the latter times. So I did a simple google search and an awesome website came up which I'm going to put on the "If it talks like a cult..." thread." P.S. Thanks Chockfull for this post!

Thank you so much for your post Chockfull. This is exactly what I meant in my post about Mike's reference to Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. It just makes me wonder if he even realizes the greatness and heart of Jesus in the verses he quotes about him or if he only sees them through his man-made "budgeting" lens. The former speaks of a relational understanding of our Lord and the latter speaks of a purely intellectual-lala-land concept of Jesus in the Bible (imo).

Good morning Mike, let me try it this way to clarify my point concerning what you had written about the woman touching the garment of Jesus. Mark 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.(KJV) 1. Every word highlighted below are obviously not in verse 30 - they are Mike's words. If you like the law of believing, Jesus does a niftly little teaching on it in the next verses. But, with these verses I get a picture of a “virtue” budget. I have no idea what the virtue is or means, but I do get an idea of a finite amount to begin with, a finite flow out of Jesus, and Jesus getting a sense of the change. These are all the kinds of things that happen around the maintaining of a finite virtue budget, by a guy who has infinite spirit. WHY, WHY, WHY would God want to tell us about this virtue drainage while Jesus was on the way to raise a little girl from the dead? Jesus’ virtue tank got sudden dip and he felt it, because God told him (I guess). Why would God tell him? Well if you are going to do a big job, you might want to save some gas in your tank for that job? These verses are screaming the idea at me that there was a budget on virtue that day and Jesus needed to be sharp about it. _____________________________________________________ The rest of my post went like this: 2. The word “virtue” is the Greek word dunamis and means power, might, strength. Jesus did not have a finite amount of dunamis to begin with. 3. The word "felt" is not in the verse - it is Mike's word. The word "knowing" is the Greek word epiginóskó and means to know exactly, to recognize. It is used 44 times and not once is it translated “felt” in the NASB. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on Bible Hub "And Jesus immediately knowing in himself,.... As soon as ever the woman had touched his garments, and had a cure, Christ, who knew all things in his Spirit, or divine nature, that dwelt in him, knew what was done, that the woman had touched him, and was healed thereby: that virtue was gone out of him; to the healing of some person, though not at all to the diminution of that virtue, which remained as powerful and effective in him as ever. Turned him about in the press, and said, who touched my clothes? that is, turned himself towards the woman behind him, though the press was so large about him, and asked who touched his clothes; not for his own sake, who knew very well who had done it; but that the cure might be known to others: not for the sake of ostentation and popular applause, but for the manifestation of his glory, and for the glory of God, and for the strengthening the faith of Jairus, who was with him, and with whom he was going to raise his daughter to life; and also that he might have an opportunity of showing forth, and commending this poor woman's faith, and of confirming the cure wrought, and of dismissing her with the utmost pleasure and joy." Yes, imo, I believe Jesus was smiling when he said those words to her.

twi definitely wanted us to have a mindset based on their way of thinking - I was thinking of these verses as describing a scriptural mindset (like just read what's written) but I see your point that everyone has the freedom to develop their own mindset for themselves. Take care,

You're correct Rocky, Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. Along with that verse, I think Ephesians 4:14a and 15 are also helpful verses to remember when discussing scripture in an open forum: 14a That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine...15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: Cheers!

Mark 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague. 1. Every word highlighted above are obviously not in verse 30 - they are Mike's words. 2. The word “virtue” is the Greek word dunamis and means power, might, strength. Jesus did not have a finite amount of dunamis to begin with. 3. The word "felt" is not in the verse - it is Mike's word. The word "knowing" is the Greek word epiginóskó and means to know exactly, to recognize. It is used 44 times and not once is it translated “felt” in the NASB. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on Bible Hub "And Jesus immediately knowing in himself,.... As soon as ever the woman had touched his garments, and had a cure, Christ, who knew all things in his Spirit, or divine nature, that dwelt in him, knew what was done, that the woman had touched him, and was healed thereby: that virtue was gone out of him; to the healing of some person, though not at all to the diminution of that virtue, which remained as powerful and effective in him as ever. Turned him about in the press, and said, who touched my clothes? that is, turned himself towards the woman behind him, though the press was so large about him, and asked who touched his clothes; not for his own sake, who knew very well who had done it; but that the cure might be known to others: not for the sake of ostentation and popular applause, but for the manifestation of his glory, and for the glory of God, and for the strengthening the faith of Jairus, who was with him, and with whom he was going to raise his daughter to life; and also that he might have an opportunity of showing forth, and commending this poor woman's faith, and of confirming the cure wrought, and of dismissing her with the utmost pleasure and joy." Yes, imo, I believe Jesus was smiling when he said those words to her.

You can call it a myth or exercising his imagination, but he sees it quite differently. Again, you see it Rocky that Mike is dealing in myth using imaginative interpretation, but he sees it differently. This is how Mike sees himself in all this - as someone who has made the Word the guiding light of his life. Are you saying he might never decide to climb out of a box that someone's opinion of him put him in? In my opinion, the only box Mike is in and the only box he cares about is the one he firmly put himself in by saying a number of times that he is not going to change his mind about the collaterals. I know it is never too late for someone to change and I would love it if he surprises everyone at some point and climbs out of his box. Time will tell and God only knows for sure.

I wrote: "Do you even care what God your heavenly Father and Jesus your Savior and Redeemer must think and feel about what you wrote?" I'm sorry if that's what you and maybe others thought I was trying to do based on my first sentence and my use of the word "degrade." However, when I asked you that question I was thinking more of the hurt they must have felt. I apologize for not making that point clear. As someone who has made the Word the guiding light of your life, it would be inspiring to hear how you feel about: "the most stressful time in Jesus' life according to Luke 22:44 ("And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.") - a time when he puts aside his own will to not be tortured and crucified in the horrific way the OT prophesied it would happen and instead finds the strength in his relationship with His Father to carry out God's will for you (John 3:16,17)"

Where's that vomiting emoji when you need one?

Mike, I personally think this is the lowest I've seen you go. You have taken the most stressful time in Jesus' life according to Luke 22:44 ("And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.") - a time when he puts aside his own will to not be tortured and crucified in the horrific way the OT prophesied it would happen and instead finds the strength in his relationship with His Father to carry out God's will for you (John 3:16,17) and you degrade it with a statement such as "there was still at this time a seemingly tight budget in other “spiritual commodities.” Do you even care what God your heavenly Father and Jesus your Savior and Redeemer must think and feel about what you wrote?

Hi Rocky, I couldn't remember on which thread you mentioned the book so I did a search and this thread (God's Budget) was near the top of the list. On page 4, there are a few posts from both of us about the book and those were the ones I was thinking of and wanted to find. The "Books" forum I referred to was short for Movies, Music, Books, Art. I've read the first chapter and there were a couple of things she said that I had come across a while back on my study of the brain, stress and depression. I look forward to reading more to see how she explains the legacy of trauma in terms of her work with her patients. You read so many books Rocky. Do you keep notes about them or do you only highlight parts you want to remember?

Changed my mind - sometimes inquiring minds need to take a break .

Your post made me think of CES and their personal prophecy problems which seem similar to what happened at a church Bickle pastored in the late 1980's that became notoriously known as the "Kansas City Prophets." A search brought up the thread "Personal Prophecy in the Way and Christian Educational Services (CES)" - very handy for the inquiring mind .

The book Emotional Inheritance finally became available for pickup at my library. I might bring up some ideas for discussion under the Books forum.

Interesting and worrisome. I wonder what else these two groups have in common .

You ask some very logical questions - hopefully his followers will wake up one morning and do the same . It's funny that a prayer and worship movement wasn't needed to persuade God to bring about the birth of His son but now one is necessary for his return.

IHOP KC is big on God's zeal for Zion and David is mentioned a lot in their scriptures about song and worship. I had to look Zion up because I know zilch about it. The name Zion is often used to describe a place appointed by the Lord where his followers can live and serve God. Scripture refers to Zion as the “City of Holiness” and a “city of refuge” where the Lord protects his people from the evils in the world. https://www.zionponderosa.com/blog/2014/06/the-hidden-meaning-behind-the-zion-name/ Zion, in the Old Testament, the easternmost of the two hills of ancient Jerusalem. It was the site of the Jebusite city captured by David, king of Israel and Judah, in the 10th century bc (2 Samuel 5:6–9) and established by him as his royal capital. (Encyclopedia Britannica)

You know, it wasn't so much Bickle's belief about the end times being what he claims they would be. I was hoping to see how he was misapplying scripture to say the end times were near (possibly during the next generation) and since you've already studied about the topic in general, I'd take a shortcut and ask you . Thanks again for your responses. Where I had gone overboard (without wearing a life jacket) was in the cult he built upon this doctrine. You can see he's still at it in my earlier post about this upcoming "prayer for Israel" in May. I agree with OldSkool on there being a gathering together but like you say, we'll know for sure when it all plays out so in the meantime, we not only get to work on being strong in the Lord and in the power of his might but we also get to play dress up (seriously you know, put on the full armor of God...). P.S. Thankfully, I was able to climb back into the boat!

I hate to keep the focus on Bickle and IHOP but I just accidentally came across the newest Bickle event on this website: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsxmE21JwEs Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, and other leaders call for 300 radical young adults to join 21 days of prayer and fasting in Kansas City this May. They will be praying during the NightWatch (12–6am), having housing and basic food (i.e. Daniel fast meals) provided. "We’re calling 300 young adults to come and be a part of this historic reality that's happening globally," Mike says. Why: To stand in the gap for Israel and God’s purposes during the 21-day global fast, May 7–28, and on the global day of prayer May 28 for Israel In a letter Mike Bickle sent to the Church, he writes: The Isaiah 62 Global Solemn Assembly 21-Day Fast (May 7-28, 2023) A collaboration of many ministries across the nations, including Lou Engle, Jason Hubbard, and Mike Bickle, is calling 100,000 intercessors to participate in a global solemn assembly (May 7-28) to fast and pray for the Lord’s purposes for Israel and to contend for the Lord to raise up 100 million intercessors for Israel according to His promise in Isaiah 62:6-7 sovereignly to “set,” “appoint,” or “mark” intercessors who will remind the LORD of His promises for Jerusalem until Jesus returns. 6 On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed [set, KJV] watchmen; all day and all night they will never keep silent. You [intercessors] who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves; 7 And give Him no rest until He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth [in connection to Jesus’ return]. (Isa. 62:6-7, NAS) Israel’s national repentance (Act 3:19) and confession that Jesus is Messiah (Mt. 23:39) is deeply connected to Jesus’ second coming and to life from the dead for the whole earth (Rom. 11:15). In this fast we are exalting the supremacy of Jesus, focusing on the connection of God’s blessing on Jerusalem to fulfilling the Great Commission. We can do so much more together in the “spirit of John 17:21-23” unity. https://www.ihopkc.org/mikebickleisaiah62letter/

Wierwille, the founder of twi, "heard from God", focused on one goal (the rightly divided word over the world), pushed the abundant life to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his classes and leadership programs. Bickle, the founder of IHOP-KC "heard from God," focused on one goal (bringing about the end times), pushed worship and prayer to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his 24/7 prayer room, classes and internship program. Both have people who remain totally committed to the cult's beliefs. Both have people who were hurt and left with some/many needing a long time to heal emotionally and spiritually. For this latter group, ex-followers from both cults have online support groups to help each other with the healing and to warn others of the harmful aspects of their cults. I took what I learned about IHOP very personally because of my own experience and the experiences of others in twi. And maybe because it's only been 5 months since beginning to deal with all things twi, I'm having such a hard time dealing with all things IHOP as it is connected to my involvement in a church that is not like IHOP in their practices but supports Bickle's doctrine all the same. After going through the confusing "should I stay or should I go" scenario for the past couple of weeks, I'm coming to realize that leaving is "the way, the truth and the life" choice to make (gotta love my use of quotation marks !)

Thank you Rocky and T-Bone for your responses. I agree that with twi and IHOP, you had individual people deciding to leave because of their personal experiences. I also agree that when large scale scandals happen as in twi, they can lead to a much greater exodus including those people who were thinking of leaving but weren't yet convinced to do so.