Charity

Mike, I believe you are on a lost island when it concerns Jesus Christ. You have NO idea what awesome things he is doing in the lives of Christians all around the world and you will probably never know until Christ returns (or you go for a walk on the road to Damascus.) Then the eyes of your understanding will be finally opened and you'll have to say .

Just caught your post T-Bone as I was about to get up from my computer. Thanks for writing it - your humor is very helpful when one has to deal with how a cult-leader fvcks with your belief system leaving unresolved ramifications in its wake.

Thanks T-Bone, My daughter has coped fairly well over the years although there have been times when she's cried her heart out when she couldn't get the help that Cameron needed or from sheer exhaustion because of his waking up for long periods of time in the night. She has an online support group with mothers who have a child with the same genetic disorder as Cameron. Through it all though she has consistently been his comforter, advocate, nurse and admirer as he reaches each milestone, big or small. It's an awesome privilege to know, love and care for a child with special needs and the circle of support given to these wonderful caretakers (wherever it may come come) is priceless. Being with my grandson has brought me closer to God as I learn to trust in His goodness and love for all His children. BTW, my daughter took her daughter to see the movie Champions last week and they loved it.

Because of my grandson's non-verbal autism, I want to understand healing more than what I presently do. So I've been looking into prayer, trust, healing, etc. and in the meantime, I know both God and Christ Jesus are watching over him as he continues to grow and learn.

again T-Bone, 2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables 2 Peter 2:3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. I used to wonder how anyone could just sit around and develop a long-range plan to develop cunningly devised fables and then pass them off as being God's will for His people. There’s a lot of intent involved here. Maybe they didn't start out wanting to be deceivers but in the end 2 Peter 2:3 says they did it because of their greed. Greed, like pride, is a quicksand-like trap that pulls people deeper and deeper into darkness. Because of vp's pride and greed, I don't want to scavenge through his writings searching for bits of "truth" here and there. When presented with one of his writings or a twi article, I will do my best to point out destructive heresies but I'm not saying my conclusions are the end all and be all. So everyone is free to question anything I post or take it all with a grain of salt. In my earlier post, I wrote, "I'm not saying it's wrong to have a desire to study scripture. I'm saying that I needed to balance this with simply reading the scriptures for the joy of it and for what God wants me to see and learn from them." Adding to this, I'm also wanting to first read what is written a couple of times before using Bible Hub, interlinears, commentaries, etc. to help with my understanding as you pointed out and to see "what other inspired Christians in the body of Christ think" as Chockfull said. So in this context, I do plan on keeping both the baby (the great truths of the Bible) and the bath water (hermeneutical tools) with the hope of keeping everything clean (2 Timothy 2:15).

I agree Chockfull. When vs 24 says, “So run that ye may obtain,” I understand it means we are to run like an athlete runs. When vp coined the term “athletes of the spirit” and began to teach this is what we were, I had no problem with it at the time. Even his other thought-up phrases like the law of believing, the great principle and the absent Christ sounded good to me back then even though none of them were in the Word. It wasn’t until I became a member last year on GSC that I began to see how completely inaccurate these phrases (and the doctrine attached to them) were and how they took a lot of truth and power away from me as a believer. I think the phrase “AoS” was the beginning of a slippery slope that led to his screwed-up interpretation of the armor of God in Ephesians 6. Another phrase vp invented was “sonship rights” where both the phrase and the word “rights” itself is not written in the Scriptures (KJV). I know when we were born again, we received the gift of holy spirit and became the children of God. I know the word says we have been redeemed, sanctified, justified, made righteous and given the ministry of reconciliation. But did vp’s term of sonship rights become another slippery slope which allowed vp to become prideful and use the righteousness given to us by God as an excuse to sin? Did others follow his lead? By using the word “rights” which is nowhere in the Bible, it was easy for vp to switch over to what a right actually is - a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way, and an entitlement is the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. These words have nothing to do with our relationship with God since it’s only through God's love, mercy and grace and the obedience of His son that we became redeemed, justified, sanctified and made righteous. That’s why I agree with OldSkool to just read what is written. It's a way to avoid making up one's own terminology so we have a better chance of remaining on solid ground biblically. (Mike has been confronted with this many times.)

I agree, the context of the chapter for each of the verses contain so many gems about who we are, what we have and what we can do as children of God. It is far, far greater than anything that can be found in twi. And Twinky, it's great to have runners when you want to with joy or just for the heck of it jumping.

This is the last paragraph in twi’s article. “We have seen some of the Greek athletic terminology that God used to describe our walk as His children. Just like the athletes who competed in the Greek games or the figure skaters of today who train and compete physically, we choose to compete spiritually as God’s children. We train ourselves to exercise self-control mentally and physically, focusing our actions on those things that help us to obtain heavenly rewards. We press toward the finish line, striving to win in the spiritual competition. We are spiritual athletes for God.” There is nothing in the 5 verses that say we are competing like an athlete. Looking again at “I Corinthians 9:24:Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain,” in an athletic race, the athlete is the only one to receive a prize. However, we as Christians are not competing against each other but are striving together so we each can obtain the prize. As for the last sentence in the article, I agree with what OldSkool posted when he showed twi’s website for it: “I thought I would put this out here once again, if for no other reason to bring the truth to light once more that Christians are not athletes of the spirit and it's a fraudulent idea that wierwille forced into scripture and rammed through the research department back in the 80s.” Thanks OldSkool for starting this thread.

The following is a quote and the last verse used in the article “Spiritual Athletes for God: “We can see more of this athletic terminology used in I Corinthians 9:25, which says, “And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.” The second part of this verse makes a comparison between the crowns an athlete receives and what the believers will obtain. Nowhere in that sentence does it say we are an AoS. The first part of the verse has many different translations. Below is a list of them as shown on Bible Hub. - has no athletic terminology - Berean Literal Bible and 6 others Now everyone striving controls himself in all things; then indeed they, that they might receive a perishable crown; but we, an imperishable. These versions above agree with 2 Interlinear bibles where no athletic words are used whatsoever. - in the games - New International Version and 11 others Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever - athletes - New Living Translation and 5 others All athletes are disciplined in their training. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize. - athletic contest - International Standard Version and 2 others Everyone who enters an athletic contest practices self-control in everything. They do it to win a wreath that withers away, but we run to win a prize that never fades. - for the mastery - King James Bible and 2 others And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. - for the prize - New King James Version And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.

I'm glad you mentioned this because I had forgotten this aspect of the doctrine. I assume you probably heard it used a lot in the corps. It's great reading about how your perspective has changed from the old to the new. I especially like vs 12 where Paul says he is continuing to press toward his goal to take hold of Christ in his life the way Christ has taken hold of him. It's a beautiful way of saying what our goal as a Christian can be.

The following is the third and fourth verses used in the article “Spiritual Athletes for God: Philippians 3:13,14: Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.” Once again, I do not read that Paul is calling himself an athlete of the Spirit. I see him pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. The NIV says, “I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” You get to decide from the context which is more accurate. Here are some of the verses from chapter 3 – reading the whole chapter is even more enlightening. Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! (vs 1) For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—(vs 3) What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ (vs 8) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. 15All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body (vs 20,21)

The following is the second verse used in the article “Spiritual Athletes for God: ”Philippians 2:16: Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. Again, I don’t read in this verse that Paul is calling himself an athlete of the Spirit. He speaks of not running or labouring in vain. Here are a few snippets from the whole chapter on Paul’s instructions to the believers and information about their relationships with one another. (NIV): then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. (vs 2) In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: (vs 5) Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (vs 9) and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (vs 11) continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. (vs 12b,13) as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. (vs 16) But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety. (25a,26,28)

The following is the first verse used in the article “Spiritual Athletes for God:” “I Corinthians 9:24: Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. I don’t read in this verse that Paul is calling the believers athletes of the Spirit. I see him comparing believers to someone who runs in a race in that we both run and we both run with a goal of obtaining a prize. In my opinion, I think it’s best to read the whole chapter on how Paul conducts himself as an apostle and see what you learn from it yourself. However, here are a few snippets: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. (vs. 2) Have we not power to eat and to drink? (vs 4) Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void. (vs 14,15) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. (vs 17,18) I am made all things to all men that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. (vs 22,23) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (This is explained in chapter 10.) (vs 24-27)

Your post got me to go back and read the article again. I'll share more tomorrow but I learned more about the five verses in this article by going back and reading them in their context - a lot more than looking at Greek words used to bolster twi's doctrine of us being athletes of the spirit. Whether it has to do with my time in twi or not, my habit has never been to just read the Word without looking up the meaning of every third of fourth word on Bible Hub. After reading OldSkool's posts about just reading what's written in scripture, I'm beginning to see the benefits of doing this because it keeps the flow of God's word moving - like what you call "a gentle reading." It's easier this way to hear what the Spirit wants to teach me. Now when I want a better understanding of a verse or passage, I'll read it over a few more times, instead of immediately racing off to see what a commentary or website has to say and it's been pretty cool. I'm not saying it's wrong to have a desire to study scripture. I'm saying that I needed to balance this with simply reading the scriptures for the joy of it and for what God wants me to see and learn from them.

So, lcm added more wrong teaching to what vp had already taught incorrectly?

Godly sorry might be something to consider as well. Paul spoke about the godly sorrow the believers of the Corinthian church had after receiving Paul's first letter to them. Sorrow means to experience deep, emotional pain (sadness), i.e. severe sorrow (grief) which is probably why verse 10 says there's a worldly sorrow that produces death. 2 Cor 7:11 lists how much good came out of their godly sorrow: diligence/earnestness; clearing of yourselves (an apology); indignation/anger; fear/alarm; vehement desire/longing; zeal/concern and revenge/readiness to see justice done. Paul then says, "In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter." It's important to note that the word "guilt" is not used.

In 2 Tim 2:3-6, Paul uses 3 metaphors back to back – 1) a good soldier of Jesus Christ, 2) a man who strives is crowned only if he strives lawfully (athletic metaphor) and 3) a husbandman that laboureth. What’s interesting is what he uses each metaphor to teach in the following verses. 1) When talking about the armour of God in Ephesians 6, Paul uses this metaphor to explain how we are to “stand against the wiles of the devil” and “having done all, to stand.” 2) When Paul uses the metaphor of running in a race, the article points out that the context is receiving rewards at the Bema. · 1 Cor 9:24 - but one receiveth the prize and verse 25 - Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible · Phil 2:16 - that I may rejoice in the day of Christ · Phil 3:13,14 - I press toward the mark for the prize 3) Paul writes about “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.” Why Paul used these particular metaphors to teach these particular truths is something to consider.

Hi Twinky, When OldSkool began this thread, he was referring to the article which used the phrase, "we are spiritual athletes" in the first and last sentences. Your reply was right on with the topic and interesting to read. Now I may be misreading the meaning of your last statement but I think it extended the topic to include the awful AoS production. (I found it interesting that this article did not cover the Ephesians 6 verses about the armour of God probably because it would have dragged the article on for too long or maybe the current twi wants everyone to simply forget vp's inaccurate interpretation of it. Who knows?) Anyway, Mike shortly afterwards brought vp into the discussion and said something I'm not sure is true. He wrote: At that time he reported that well before AOS got into production, circa 1984, VPW went to Emporia and was bringing up questions as to the validity of the athletes metaphor. (Not the production, but the metaphor itself - then Mike went on to talk about vp's concerns about the production. So my question now is did anyone hear that this was the case - that vp was doubting his interpretation of the armour of God? If so, then I think it would be important that GSC readers get to read about it.

Hi MarieP and Annio and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and hearts, I was never in the corps but was in twi for 12 years. During that time I went wow (1974-1975), took the advanced class and led both adult and children fellowships. I too taught the law of believing and the great principle about how we operate the spirit of God. I spoke of what Jesus accomplished for us but failed to speak of the joy and power that having an actual relationship with Christ brings (because I didn't even know about it myself). My greatest regret is for all the hurting people I talked with and my main answer to their pain was to take pfal. I did not love them with the love of God. I’d faithfully share John 10:10 with them but not Luke 4:18 where Jesus defines the abundant life he came to give to people. I had more faith in a class than I had in the spirit of God working in me to minister to someone’s needs. I've confessed to God of how sad and feeble of a Christian I was to them. I think it speaks of your relationship with God, Annio, that you were able to show compassion for the abusers and forgive them. I wonder though, why it is often harder for us to accept God’s forgiveness for ourselves? Understanding the role I played in what went on around me in twi and sorting through my feelings about the role leadership played in messing things up spiritually is important to do. But when I consciously or subconsciously added into this mix past traumas and insecurities I had before I even knew of twi, figuring things out became more complicated and confusing. One last thing, if at times who I thought I was and what I thought I had while in twi was based on following man made doctrine and not the truth of God’s Word, realizing the worthlessness of it all was a hard pill to swallow. So was the realization that the “issues” from my past which I thought were gone had really only been covered over because a cult like twi cannot bring deliverance nor healing. It’s all been a lot to deal with but for me the answer has been to go back to Luke 4:18 and get to know Christ personally so he can be the one to teach me and heal my broken heart and deliver me from captivity and open my eyes to the truth and set me at liberty from my shattered life. This is the process that Christ wants to continue working on with me and it has been the most effective and rewarding. Being on GSC was where it all started for me. I hope you both will continue to post as well.

T-bone - an awesome example of God's power. Mike should forget about budgets and doors and spend some time reading the Psalms of David and see his praises for God during the good times and the bad. This was the man who stood up to Goliath as a boy, survived all of Saul's attempts to kill him and never lost a battle. Even though in the Psalms David often cried out to God in his distress (who wouldn't blame him), he also gave praise and glory to God in whom he always trusted to give him the victory. God is so much greater than the devil!

What did he think - that all the moms were following the Scout motto "Be prepared?" Like they never knew when a batch of cookies might be needed. Sadly, it's just another painful image only this time about the rod of correction debacle.

What a graphic and eye opening metaphor about the law of believing debacle OldSkool. Nicely done !

When I was a teacher of first grade students (6-7 years old), our school board supplied resources so that we could teach resilience, having a growth mindset and later on even mindfulness to the kids. The important part was helping them to apply this knowledge throughout the day when problems or challenges occurred both inside and outside the classroom. The goal was that if this was reinforced each year as the kids grew older, it would stick with them after they graduated. A lot of students at the first school where I taught came from pretty rough backgrounds so I think it was a godsend.

I really appreciate the scriptures that you shared T-Bone, especially in Ezekiel. Thanks.