Charity

One last thing about all the recent coverage on Mike Bickle. Bickle was heavily criticized by church leaders outside IHOPKC and many others for the "confession" letter he sent out. The letter is shown at the bottom of this report. https://julieroys.com/breaking-international-house-of-prayer-founder-mike-bickle-confesses-to-inappropriate-behavior-20-years-ago/ One of the points they make is that forgiveness is dependent upon the wrongdoer making an honest and full confession to the one they harmed. In Bickle's case, as founder of an international church, they believe the confession needs to be made to the members of the church as well. I am not talking about the healing properties of forgiveness. I'm only sharing how their position does not support those who say forgiveness is mandatory for Christians whether an admission or apology is ever given by the wrongdoer.

In the main Jane Doe's interview with The Roys Report, she said one of the reasons she came forward is because she recently became aware of how Bill Cosby had drugged his victim(s). She then realized that Bickle must have done that to her as well. Before this, she could not understand why one night she woke up alone in a hotel room and could not remember how she got there. This occurred after having dinner with Bickle in a restaurant and having a couple of drinks. Apparently, there were other occasions like this. It seems Bickle and VP have a lot in common. Thankfully, the Advocate Group (AG) which includes the two named above, are looking out for the Jane Doe's who come forward. Both Bickle and IHOPKC were criticizing them for not doing Matthew 18:15-17 which requires them to first meet with Bickle privately to confront him. Without doing so, according to them, they cannot move forward to investigate their claims. That's part of the system where abusers can get away with their abuses. As the AG has made known, a victim of abuse, especially by a person who has had spiritual authority over them, should never be expected to be alone with that person again for any reason or at any time. This statement also offsets how on a number of occasions, the top leaders have told any further victims to contact them or the investigator heading the "independent" investigation. Finally, it is the AG that is making it known that all 3 law firms IHOPKC has hired to do the investigation have not been independent which is why the Jane Doe's will not consent to being interviewed by them. These women have been labelled false accusers on social media because of their refusal to cooperate with these law firms.

Oh, if that would only be the case. As you probably know by now, IHOPKC has formally and permanently separated themselves from Bickle "due to a level of confirmed 'inappropriate behavior.'” There have been quite a few offshoots of IHOPKC in the past few years and like with twi, they basically continue to teach the same false doctrine as its founder - Mike Bickle. I'm sure more will continue to spring up now. So much of what is going on with these groups is based on the fast-growing Charismatic movement which is extremely heavy on members receiving and sharing their "personal prophecies, dreams and visions" from God. Apparently, it has become the "norm" for people to visit heaven and see Jesus to receive a prophecy (which outdoes vp's snow story anytime). IHOPKC itself was built on personal prophecies Bickle received from other "prophets" as well as his own false prophecies, dreams and visions (which are so insane if you care to google about them). This charismatic movement, of which the Vineyard Church was influential in propagating in the early 80's, believe that scripture alone is not enough. In their desire to "feel and experience" spiritual giftings, get extra knowledge from God (Gnosticism) and become "intimate with Jesus" (bridal paradigm), they are falling for "prophetic words" that obviously come either from people's own imaginations or from spiritual sources other than God. The kicker is that this movement (including Bickle) publicly say the majority of prophecies are false or wrongly interpreted (80%) which is okay because it's the 20% that are "correct" that is important. Exposing Mike Bickle, however, is bringing more awareness to all of this craziness and hopefully will slow down the growth in the charismatic movement. Unfortunately, like twi, those involved in IHOPKC have been warned to stay off social media.

I have come close to becoming obsessed with following this guy and IHOPKC - there is soooo much wrong with Bickle's history, his 24/7 prayer room, his teachings and his influence in the religious communities worldwide. What's coming out now about him is nothing new among big time leaders who have been exposed in the past, but it's how it's currently being played out by Bickle and the leaders of IHOP that shows the spiritual manipulation and deception that always go along with this stuff. Anyway, the best coverage I have found on everything that is happening is on youtube by a young couple. Their podcasts go by the name of Wake up and Win. This is one I listened to today by just the husband who used to be in IHOP and he's talking to the people still in the group that might be thinking about leaving. It's very good.

Only once did I wonder if a post of mine had been deleted (can't remember now what it was about), but I found it disappeared along with some others when GSC downloaded that new program. About the video, you know how twi whitewashed the truth about vp (and is still doing it); you can expect the same to be going on here. Bickle has agreed to the church's terms to stop all ministering in person and on social media but he has many devoted followers in leadership. This is the man who led that church into an extreme teaching of the song of Solomon being about the bride of Christ and Jesus. All romantic and sexual phrases and verses were how their followers began to relate to Jesus in their words, prayers and songs written by them. His end times teachings are horrendous as well. I came to learn about this guy through the Vineyard church I was attending. Anyway, I don't believe the truth about the sexual misconduct will ever come to light if the investigation is not a totally independent one. So thanks again to anyone who takes a few minutes to add their name to the petition!

A while ago, I shared some things about the International House of Prayer Kansas City (IHOPKC) and its founder Mike Bickle. I learned a couple of days ago that he is being investigated by the church for allegations of sexual misconduct “where the marriage covenant was not honored." You can read more about it on this website: https://www.christianpost.com/news/mike-bickle-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-multiple-women.html I have kept in touch with Susan Tuma who is a leader of a chat room like GSC where those who have left IHOP can go to discuss issues and get some healing. She knows Bickle well and has shared with me that the accusations are true and that they are much worse than I can imagine. Unlike vp and twi, this guy and his church is hugely significant within the Charismatic movement internationally. He holds a lot of power, but I've been told that he is very manipulative and likely a pathological narcissist. Susan also shared about IHOP leadership hiring a law firm/lawyer that is personal friends with Dave Sliker on their executive leadership team. She shares the leadership there is deeply untrustworthy and that is why she helped to write a petition demanding they hire an appropriate investigative team. I signed her petition yesterday and am passing it along here if any of you want to sign it as well. https://chng.it/4XgwMrvxHw P.S. Hopefully this post won't get deleted by the moderators.

I just came across this website about Jesus not being God and wondered if anyone knows a Kevin Gregg from twi? https://www.theonenessofgod.org/connect/

This is indeed sad news to hear and undoubtedly a sorrowful time for Tricia, their sons and all his family and friends. I knew Tricia when I first became involved with twi in Canada as she was the international outreach coordinator at that time. Both Lloyd and Tricia lived in London, Ontario when I was living there as well. The hope is spoken of repeatedly in the Epistles - our resurrection from the dead (should it occur before the return of Christ) is guaranteed because of Jesus' resurrection. What a joyous day that will be!

When looking back on twi, we now see how much of it was operating as a cult as well as how much we followed their practices and doctrines believing we were doing God's will. As for now, scriptures say the following holds true. God is not unrighteous to forget our work and labour of love which we showed in his name when we ministered to the believers and brought unbelievers to Christ. These treasures (rewards) are stored in heaven for us where they cannot be corrupted or stolen. What things we did lose or were kept from having because of twi's hardheartedness, greed, lust, idolatry, etc. (Gal 5 has the full list), God is willing to heal, restore and give to us when we put our trust in him. God has forgiven us for the sin in our lives during that time once we acknowledged them to him. I'm sure others could add to this list or contest to it. The point is there is comfort in knowing that not all of our time back in twi is a complete loss in God's eyes.

First thought that comes to mind is if someone does you wrong or offends you, it usually means they have taken something from you such as your health if one attacks you; your sense of safety if one threatens you; your money if one robs you; your reputation if one slanders you, etc. Since your health, sense of safety, etc. have value in your life, taking them away would mean a loss for you. Forgiving the offender without demanding repayment would then mean you absorbed the cost of that loss. Biblically speaking, Jesus absorbed the price of our sins when he redeemed us through his blood (Col 1:14). Also, when Jesus taught about forgiveness in Matthew 18, he used the example of a king whose servant owed him money. Verses 26-27 says, "The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt." The king absorbed the loss which was priced at ten thousand talents.

My misunderstanding then oldiesman - I thought when you said that the phrase "father in the word" was powerful, you were referring to how vp used it, which led me to think that your being encouraged to "go back there" meant twi. I connected the dots incorrectly - thank you for the clarification.

Does your "mother in Catholicism" happen to be the virgin Mary? I ask this because Catholics are taught that Mary is the mother of all Christians, those who believe in Jesus the God-man. Mary, the Mother of All - Catholic Life In Our Times Catholics are encouraged to pray to Mary as she is a heavenly advocate who intercedes for us. One defense of this belief is that Mary went to Jesus when there was no wine left at a wedding and that's when and where Jesus did his first miracle. If "go back there" means twi, I wonder why a mother in Catholicism would want you to go back to a group that does not believe in Jesus being the God-man (iow, the trinity).

You're right - anything done because of being pressured and not from a willing heart does not benefit the doer. When it comes to listening to God and following His word, it's because of the "we love him because he first loved us" kind of relationship we have with him. Being forgiven after we have sincerely apologized to the person we hurt as shown by our words and future actions is a welcomed relief and joy for the forgiven one.

I agree with both of you. I think of Jesus' request on the cross for God "to forgive them for they know not what they do" as well as Paul saying in 1 Timothy 1 that he was chief among sinners, yet he received mercy because he persecuted and blasphemed the church ignorantly in unbelief. Considering his credentials as a Pharisee, it would seem that he was taught wrongly by the Pharisees he learned from (one of whom was his own father) which would explain his ignorance and unbelief. This can also apply to the many who were misled by vp's and lcm's teachings. God cannot be fooled though because he looks at our hearts. Paramount to Paul's experience is that when he was presented with the truth by Christ himself, he had a complete change of mind and purpose in his life.

You're welcome. Please let me know what your thoughts are as I'm still interested in learning more about this.

The topic of forgiveness came up when I visited a Christian on Thursday. When I said I believed we are told in scripture to forgive those once they have repented, she could not accept this and gave me many reasons why I was wrong including Bible verses. One thing she said that stuck out to me was God requires repentance because He's God - we're not God and so that condition does not apply to us. It sounded right, and I left there wondering if it was true or not. The next day, I did some searches on the internet and found one that listed every reason she had given me the night before also with a Bible verse attached. 1. God still tells me to. 1 Peter 3:8-9 2. Jesus gave me an example when dying on the cross. Luke 23:34 (This one I accept.) 3. So my life isn’t blighted by bitterness and resentment. Hebrews 12:14-15 4. Forgiveness gives me power in my spirit. 1 Timothy 6:11 5. Most people don’t understand the significance of what they do. 6. Because I’m guilty too. John 8:7 The website is called 6 compelling reasons why you should forgive someone who isn't sorry (activechristianity.org) There were other websites which basically said the same thing which shows how common a belief this is among Christians, including myself up to a few days ago. Whenever they read the word "forgive" in the Bible, they automatically assume it means forgiving unconditionally, and is therefore something we must do and if we don't, we become sinners in God's eyes. I feel it's one of those areas where wrong doctrine crept into the church that appears Godly when it's not. I did find two sites which do not teach the above. They're listed below. Do You Have to Forgive People Who Don’t Even Ask for Forgiveness? (davidservant.com) Do I have to forgive a person who does not apologize? - BibleAsk

Referencing back to my previous posts on forgiveness, here is what Jesus taught in Luke 17:3-4 3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he trespasses against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. In vs 3, the need to admonish the believer as to what action against you was sinful is noteworthy. The offender is then in the position to make a choice as to whether to repent or not and if they do, then we are to forgive them. The word "repent" means "to change one's mind or purpose." Verse 4 brings different scenarios to my mind, but I'll let the verse speak for itself. Obviously, in twi, confronting leaders was worthy of condemnation and repentance was not a practice you saw modelled by leaders, yet followers were expected to be unconditionally forgiving.

When you forgave all things TWI, do you think God forgave all their offences against you as well? The reason I'm asking OldSkool is that often the word "forgive" is used when we mean we have stopped feeling resentment against the offender which is different from "absolving" someone of any blame, guilt or responsibility for their wrongdoings.

It's obvious you are being facetious here which adds no value to this discussion.

When I now think back on the ministry leader who approached me with twi's version of approving sexual sin, a person who has never asked me for forgiveness and a person who went on doing the same with another female in the fellowship, this thread hits home for me. When I look at Eph 4:22-23, "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." as well as verses 31-32, "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.", these are my thoughts. - Bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, evil speaking and all malice are of the old man which is corrupt because of its sin nature. With these, I can overcome by way of my personal relationship with God and with the power of the new man (i.e., Christ) dwelling in me which after God (in his likeness) is created in righteousness and true holiness. Also, 2 Cor 1:3 says our God is the God of all comfort and knowing Him brings me healing as well. - Being kind and tenderhearted are fruits of the spirit and are what we are told to think on according to Phil 4:8, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. - Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you is not without a condition according to 1 John 1:9 which is to first confess your sin/wrongdoing. Concerning my experience with this leader, I am healed of the effects of it because of God and should he ever reach out and asks for forgiveness, I will forgive him.

I may be proven wrong on this, and it's something new for me that I have not considered before, but I do believe forgiveness always follows a confession of wrongdoing. This is also seen in the parable of the prodigal son. Looking at the verses above in light of Matt 18:23-35 (which I quoted in full in my previous post), it says: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not everyone his brother their trespasses. The king had compassion and pity on his servant after the servant requested more time to pay his monetary debt because he was unable to do so at the time. The fact that the servant did not deny he owed the money or blamed the king for his owing this money is important here. Plus, the sincerity of the servant's words has to be implied here to make this a righteous parable Jesus was telling. When we do not forgive someone who is sincerely admitting their wrong, this angers God because we are not fully appreciating the forgiveness he gives us by way of his son's sacrifice on the cross.

There are ways God can heal us of emotional pain and things we can do when working things out so we can "move forward," but requiring forgiveness of an unrepented offender is not one of them. Thanks again OldSkool for not beating around the bush on this idea.

Thank you for calling out those in twi who put the responsibility of forgiveness on the victim when the offender has never repented and asked for it. 1 John 1:9 clearly says confession of sin is a requirement for God's forgiveness, so why would that requirement be removed for us when dealing with those who have sinned against us. I think this parable in Matthew 18 shows this along with other truths as well, and I was wondering what others think about this example Jesus gave of forgiveness. 23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Thanks, penguin2.

How are you doing Waysider?