Charity

This is NOT a criticism. I am wondering, though, how much study you have given to the topic of NDEs and whether you use skeptical and critical thinking when reading the studies or while listening to people describe their experiences? The reason I'm asking is because I rarely did this when I was a Christian. However, during my deconversion and since then, I have learned the necessity for doing so. The important question to ask is how much does one care whether what they believe is actually true or not? Are NDEs simply a matter of interest for you or is it something you base important beliefs upon? ************* This is an example of what I mean. After seeing your post, I read Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality by Jeffrey Long, and I had some questions about a few things and decided to look into them. I checked and learned that he is a Christian who wrote God and the Afterlife which could mean that he has a biased perspective about NDEs. I also researched whether his work was peer reviewed and found two reviews of his popular book Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences . One was by Wendy Cousins and the other by J. Kenneth Arnette, both of whom have highly educated fields of study. Arnette makes a number of critiques, a few of them being: - a problem with Long's repeated use of the words "proof" and "the afterlife." "Proof" because Arnette claims, "At this point, the survival of consciousness cannot, through science, be established as a fact." "The afterlife" because "NDEs actually provide very little information about the nature of “the” afterlife, except perhaps for its initial appearance" and that the term “afterlife” is a loaded term, with much attached baggage and potentially a variety of interpretations." Arnette uses the term "survival of death.” - explains ways in which Long's methodology is problematic - that Long omits the research on "distressing NDEs" in his book (other than a mere mention of it and a referral to his website.) Arnette writes, "the likely result of Long’s detailed attention to pleasurable NDEs and virtual omission of attention to distressing ones is that readers come away with a simplistic impression of the range of possible experiences that might await them at death." I could go further by looking up information about Arnette and his support of the "reality, meaning, and implications of NDEs" since his credentials include his involvement with the "Transpersonal Institute for the Scientific Study of the Paranormal" - oh my!

Thanks Oakspear! I spent the whole day online yesterday only to come up with what you so efficiently shared in three points. I'll still share my longer version with its links so I'll have something to show for my time . 1. “What agape means in ancient Greek writing somewhat differs from the word's contemporary use. The earliest references to agape in Greek writing use the term to refer to a deep love for a spouse or a close family member. Agape's Greek origin is the verb agapao ” Agape Love Meaning, Uses & Examples 2. "Agapē (αγάπη in Greek) is one of several Greek words translated into English as love. Greek writers at the time of Plato and other ancient authors used forms of the word to denote love of a spouse or family, or affection for a particular activity, in contrast to, if not with a totally separate meaning from, philia (an affection that could denote either brotherhood or generally non-sexual affection) and eros (an affection of a sexual nature, usually between two unequal partners, although Plato's notion of eros as love for beauty is not necessarily sexual). The term agape with that meaning was rarely used in ancient manuscripts, but quite extensively used in the Septuagint, the Koine Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible." New World Encyclopedia 3. "The verb agapao is used extensively in the Septuagint as the translation of the common Hebrew term for love which is used to show affection for husband/wife and children, brotherly love, and God's love for humanity. It is uncertain why agapao was chosen, but similarity of consonant sounds (aḥava) may have played a part. It is not impossible that the Greek concept even originated as a transliteration from some Semitic tongue. This usage provides the context for the choice of this otherwise obscure word, in preference to other more common Greek words, as the most frequently used word for love in Christian writings. The use of the noun agape in this way appears to be an innovation of the New Testament writers, but is clearly derived from the use of the verb agapao in the Septuagint<ref>Agape as a term for love or affection is rarely used in ancient manuscripts." Art and Popular Culture 4. "The verb form goes as far back as Homer, translated literally as affection, as in "greet with affection" and "show affection for the dead".[2] Wikipedia I enjoyed reading The Odyssey, so I'll share this as well. Art and Popular Culture above also mentions Homer. It reads, "Although some sources claim Agape appears in the Odyssey twice, the word is in fact not used. Instead, two forms of the word agape may be found: agapêton and agapazomenoi. Agapêton is found in Book 5 of the Odyssey and means 'beloved' or 'well-loved' (referring to Odysseus and Penelope feelings for their son Telemachus). Agapazomenoi is found in books 7 (Nausicaa saves Odysseus when he is starving, battered and naked after washing ashore on her island) and 17 (lines 30-45 when Odysseus' nurse Eurycleia saw him at first upon his return and 'with a burst of tears she came straight toward him' and the other maids gathered 'and they kissed his head and shoulders in loving welcome') of the Odyssey and means 'to treat with affection." (Words in Italics are added to the quote) Pretty cool methinks .

Thanks for your reply Oakspear. I agree with both of the reasons you gave. Being heartbroken because of unanswered prayers could also fall under a "feeling" reason similar to being mad at God. For me, it was this hurt that made me go back to the bible to study what I was getting wrong about prayer and eventually came to the conclusion that the biblical promises had too many loopholes and that prayer was always going to be a hit and miss concept - ignore the misses and count the hits. It's like the time I was on an errand outdoors and it looked like it might rain, so I prayed to God that it wouldn't because I had no umbrella. When it started to rain, I prayed that it would be a light drizzle so I wouldn't get drenched. When it became a downpour, I prayed I wouldn't catch a cold and I didn't. Praise the Lord - God was real. (True story ) This One Failed Promise Should Stop Christians In Their Tracks! "And The Sick Will Be Made Well" I listened to this 30-minute video once and thought it was excellent. I'll listen to it again today to confirm whether my first impression was correct.

I have started two previous threads about love; Love when I believed in the biblical God and Sin and the Need for Perfect Love when I had stopped believing in this god Now, I am beginning a third one as a result of my post today in the Fruit of the Spirit thread where I wrote, "Although there is no specific "in crowd/out crowd fallacy," there is the bandwagon fallacy which "presumes that because a position is popular, it must therefore be correct. Bandwagon Fallacy (includes a comic about Aristotle to make the point ). It's been my experience that being told something (e.g., agape love) is not available to you (a non-Christian) that is available to others (Christians) seems to fit in with this fallacy." I admit that the topic of love has always been an emotional one for me and this time, it is no different. I had been taught about God's love since I was a child growing up in the Roman Catholic faith, and this foundation was what led me to search for it again in my troubled teens where I eventually ended up in a twi fellowship, experienced their initial lovebombing and remained for over a decade. At times, it has proven difficult as an atheist to let go of this indoctrinated beleef concerning the supernatural/spiritual origin and source of unconditional love. During those times, I did feel inferior about my own ability to love myself and others without "any" conditions. In the extreme, this feeling of inadequacy can lead to some mental health issues. It sometimes did for me and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this. So what's the deal here? Is agape love only available to Christians because biblical writers (who wanted to sell their idea for a necessary savior from God's wrath due to man's sin nature) claimed it was and millions of people have since jumped on this bandwagon and so it must therefore be true? Do Christians manifest agape love all the time and if not, then how is that different from non-Christians who do not manifest unconditional love all the time? How was the word "agape" used in ancient Greek before it took on the meaning given to it in the new testament?

Although there is no specific "in crowd/out crowd fallacy," there is the bandwagon fallacy which "presumes that because a position is popular, it must therefore be correct. Bandwagon Fallacy (includes a comic about Aristotle to make the point ). It's been my experience that being told something (e.g., agape love) is not available to you (a non-Christian) that is available to others (Christians) seems to fit in with this fallacy. I'll accept Raf's wisdom and be persnickety about the word agape on the Atheism subforum.

Finally, JoyfulSoul, in the back of my mind, I was thinking about you being around twi again and comparing that with your past experiences with Morningstar and IHOPKC and how different the two are in the area of "manifesting" holy spirit. twi can definitely be more on the boring/less extravagant side of this issue. Lovebombing in twi, however, was BIG with this and therefore may excel in comparison to the other two groups. I don't know. Either way, travel on.

Excuse me for coming back to this issue, but I'm just realizing that my post above had apparently been taken by some as an atheist attacking Christians. When I wrote the post, I was thinking about the criticism other Christians themselves have laid against the prophetic practices (and teachings) of these groups which is what the documentation I said I'd share was based on and which I, as a former Christian, agree with as well. As an atheist, I've just taken it a step further and think there is no evidence for this biblical God or the holy spirit (meaning both the "gift" and the 3rd person of the trinity). I participate in the discussion because I find this specific topic pretty problematic. Thanks Raf for your post.

If I were to go ahead with the documentation, it would be about ministries other than twi, offshoots of twi or cults. Would it be best to do so then in the Open forum or the Doctrinal: Exploring the Bible sub-forum? (Mind you, there is not a lot of scriptural support for the documentation since it's pretty much man made doctrines and practices.) Other than doing so specifically in response to JoyfulSoul's post, the documentation sheds a light on what leaders of these mega churches are saying and doing.

My post was about the prophetic phoniness (with a few extra adjectives added) that certain ministries prosper in. Your reply made it about the ministries themselves. Slight, but important, difference. I was aiming solely with the prophetic practices of these groups - not all the practices. These are the specific practices that I planned to document for you.

You know nothing about what I do or do not know. What I said about those groups can easily be documented. I will do so if you're interested but not tonight - it's too late.

As the OP shows, twi is still teaching that the fruit of the spirit comes from the manifestations but also includes by walking by the word. I think other Christian groups will teach the latter but not the former if they believe in cessationism.

The Fruit of the Spirit Quotes from article above: "In contrast to walking by the flesh, we walk by the spirit, which includes walking by the written revelation of God’s Word and operating the nine manifestations of the gift of holy spirit we received when we were born again." "When we walk by the spirit by operating these nine manifestations, we will produce the fruit of the spirit."

I think you know that twi will have none of the preposterous, pretentious and extreme prophetic phoniness that ministries like Morningstar (and IHOPKC, Gateway Church, Bethel Church, and others) prosper in, but they all do share in twi's history of there being sexual abuse. Now, do they all practice lovebombing like twi - that I do not know.

Yeah, I was kind of hoping for one straight answer as to exactly why you left twi or were you kicked out?

Exactly why did you leave then?

Does anyone know if vpw plagiarized someone's work for the Jesus Christ if Not God book?

I'm listening to the audio tape about William Barlow again and around the 19:00 mark, he talks about vpw's book "Jesus Christ is Not God" and how bad the explanation of John 1:1 was. He went on to list others who had researched both for and against the trinity doctrine and ended up writing a manuscript called "The Only True God." This was before he went into the corps. (Barlow tried to submit the ms through twi's process of doing research but it was rejected; sent it a year later to a former fellowship coordinator that he was still friends with who sent it off to the Ohio State coordinator who reproved Barlow for not following proper procedure [which he had actually done the year before] and yelled at him for an hour, calling him arrogant for thinking he knew more than "dr." w. The SC also said he wanted to talk about the ms with Barlow's branch coordinator first before discussing it with him. What eventually happened with the ms wasn't mentioned at this part of the tape.) Anyway, I'm wondering if there was ever an update done to JCING to improve vp's book. I know John Lynn, John Schoenheit and Mark H. Graeser wrote their own book called "One God and One Lord " which is 650 pages and is FAR better than JCING. I doubt very much twi is making that book available in their bookstore. So if twi is still sticking with this one original book on the topic of the trinity, it shows either laziness on their part to improve/update it and/or some need to keep vpw front and centre. Either way, way followers are missing out on what others have learned on this topic - so much for them being a research ministry.

About the Founder In the first paragraph, they fail to mention the two names he plagiarized the most - J.E. Stiles and Bullinger. I don't recognize most of the other men they do list. Did he publicly credit all of these men in his work? Second paragraph is about his academic credentials. Two links concerning Pike's Peak Bible Seminary (aka Burton College) are Pikes Peak Bible Seminary (which mentions vpw) and GSC Thread Pike's Peak Seminary. Third paragraph lists the colleges in Emporia and in Indiana - neither of which were ever accredited and are both now closed. Does anyone know if the corps program is still run out of Camp Gunnison as well as the headquarters in Ohio? This link talks about the accreditation issues around these two places. Camp Gunnison's Accreditation The University of Life outreach courses, an international Biblical studies correspondence school, is mentioned in the final paragraph but I can't see where that is still available. The article closes with the claim that vp held forth the greatness and the accuracy of God’s Word. So the quote "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" also meant the Word of God according to vpw. Yet, how many of the classes offered by twi today are the original ones taught by him?

I don't get this oldiesman, the devil wanted you to....what?

Do you think this applies to the Way International?

Within twi, there was very little, if any, "willingness to agree to disagree." With William Barlow, he shared that it was some fellow believers who complained about him (i.e., ratted him out) to leadership because they determined he was criticizing and mocking vpw (which he later explained to the leader how that was not what was actually happening). With the second quote of WordWolf (highlighting is mine), he laid out how fear based the control in twi was. Questioning twi doctrine was obviously included in these acts of disobedience and qualified you as not being faithful enough. So beware anyone reading this thread who is currently in twi or is considering becoming involved - listen to the tape. On the tape, one leader "seemed willing" to go through William's questions with him but before that could even begin to happen, Rivenbark was told about it, shut it down and kicked William out of the corps solely for this one reason. It seems most likely that twi knows they are not able to defend vpw's teachings when provided with scriptures. They nip it in the bud, accuse you of thinking you know more than weirwille (which happened to me as well and is considered blasphemy in their eyes), and remain faithful to the man who founded the ministry which now belongs to them.

William talks about his parents and other members of his family being in twi for years. However, I don't think he mentioned anyone else being in the corps program. Vince and Sean Finnegan began teaching against once saved/always saved which is a big departure from twi. Myth: Salvation Cannot Be Lost

Questioning Way International Doctrines (William Barlow) In this audio interview done by Sean Finnegan (Vince Finnegan's son), William Barlow covers a lot of topics along with his life experiences leading up to and after his being kicked out of the way corps by Rivenbark about six months before he was to graduate. If I remember correctly, this was around 2017. He speaks on growing up in twi, the treatment he received because he went to his leadership about wanting to privately discuss questions he and another corps brother had about some of vpw's teaching, the control leadership wanted to have over him after leaving the corps, etc. The main issue concerns twi's continued stance to preserve vpw's teachings and confront, belittle and condemn those who dare to question them. The link below is for Barlow's website which he mentions. It contains research teachings he and others have done on dispensationalism, the tithe and giving, the kingdom of God and many others. He encourages questions on all of the teachings. Study Driven Faith

Giving to God—Abundant Sharing Posted on November 14, 2016 by The Way Quote: Tithing (giving one-tenth of one’s increase) to the Lord is established in God’s Word as a basic law of God’s prosperity. In making the tithe our minimum, we open the floodgates for prosperity to ourselves, and we help make available the knowledge of God to others. We also have the joy of giving above and beyond the tithe, which we call abundant sharing. Abundant sharing is a heart-motivated commitment to freely share of our abundance out of love for and thankfulness to God. Two main purposes for abundantly sharing are so that God’s people may give and thus receive the subsequent blessings, and so that the necessary financial and physical means are provided to help move God’s prevailing Word.

Our Legal Rights in Christ to God’s Blessings This article was posted 5 years ago by twi. In it they say "One of these immutable laws is the law of giving."