Charity

Hi, what's the name of the song? I found it hard to hear the words other that the "together" part.

Penworks can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was a comment another researcher sort of whispered to her during an important meeting which I think Walter Cummins had called. The person said that vp wasn't very good with the Greek language. I can't lay hands on my copy of the book right now, but I remember it was a very unsettling moment for Penworks to hear this about vp and things changed considerably for her concerning twi.

Excuse my lackadaisical response to your comment "That's the most inauthentic piece of "art!" I may have ever seen." Concerning the 7 different forms of art, when I was teaching Grade 1, my students learned literature and media arts (which touched on cinema) as part of the Language arts program, as well as dance, drama and visual arts as part of the Arts curriculum. Visual arts included some messy lessons about painting and sculpture which pretty much meant working with plasticine . (Thank goodness the music section was taught by a qualified music teacher.) That just leaves architectural arts which was covered in our science classes. God, I miss those times. It was a lot of fun for me and the kids.

Big difference between the group twi showed on their website 81st Anniversary Celebration Updates - The Way International News and Events and this one I found on the internet which I liked for its cultural authenticity.

Rocky, are you referring to this? Is it new?

Hi Annio, thanks for your post. Sorry, I have no names, but your mention of the Covenant theology is interesting. I like the idea of focusing on God's covenants throughout the bible because of the relationship He had with those involved. Hebrews 8-19 is about the new covenant we have with God through Christ who just so happens to be the mediator of this covenant. It's great reading. No wonder vp/twi wanted to demote Jesus' importance in our lives with God and promote the "written word" as his replacement which, as you said, was really the written word according to vp. All cult leaders declare he/she has "the truth" as it was revealed to them only. I can't believe the number of cults that are out there.

Lots! My mind is drawing a blank on "Canadian ministers class." To whom were you referring?

It's very nice to see you here Alex. It'll be a year at the end of November since I became a member. I've shared some and learned a lot - please feel at home here.

Looking forward to your return Waysider. Take care.

Deleted

Yes, I believed them. Should I have - in hindsight, no. One ramification was critical thinking went out the door because of trusting in them and an implication would be that an extreme narcissist should never be allowed in any position of power. For example: Can a narcissist who commits a crime from believing his own lies be held responsible for his crimes? Can his defense be that he truly believed his ball was stolen and was only trying to get it back when he committed the "said" crimes? In other words, everything he did to get his ball back was justified because his ball, according to him, was absolutely stolen. Also, since a narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition according to the DMS 5, a professional diagnosis could help him in his defense, but being that he has the disorder, he would never allow this to be brought up at trial. Now, what if the narcissist is found not guilty or gets a slap on the wrist because he truly believed in a lie of his own making (or in someone else's lie which he then made his own) and is therefore free to pursue his obsession of becoming rich and powerful so he can seek revenge on people who persecuted and prosecuted him? Worse, what if enough people who believed all along that his ball was stolen (when in reality it wasn't) and/or liked him enough that they helped him to become rich and powerful? Could such an insane story really happen? Narcissists like vp and others are adept at persuading people to trust them whether they believe their lies to be true or not? A narcissist can even be pleased that he can tell a whopper like God spoke audibly to him because of an out-of-season snowstorm/blizzard or another one can say he could shoot someone and, in both cases, believe they will not lose followers. How sure are they not only of themselves but in people's need or desire to believe in someone who will show them "the" way. My point is that an extreme narcissist can believe that he knows that he knows he is speaking truth when in reality he is not, and I know now how big a problem this becomes when others believe and support him. Does a Narcissist Believe His or Her Own Lies? | Psychology Today

She is beautiful. I think you will find no shortage of adorable clothing for girls!

Interesting point. I know of two ex-way people who shared that this doctrine and practice of twi you mention above led them into a gradual descent into sin that they had to deal with after leaving twi. I personally don't remember hearing much about repentance and I honestly can't remember doing much of it myself during my 12 years of involvement. What I do have vivid memories of is the "being out of fellowship" doctrine because of the fear that was attached to it like losing God's hedge of protection. This included the sin of disagreeing with vp's teachings and not following leaders' demands. As a result, I would stop doing something that I believed caused me to be out of fellowship, but I really don't remember confessing it as sin to God our father. Being in and out of fellowship was a reality because of what I knew about the sin nature as written in Romans 7. I realize that there is no mention of repentance in that chapter and then it's followed up with chapter 8:1 saying, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." That verse was taught to mean something it doesn't say at all and it in no way exonerates twi from not focusing on repentance. The epistles contain lists of actions that God calls sin and needs to be repented of according to 1 John. Even certain Christian acts are without profit to the believer if done without the love of God. Twi is without excuse for what crap they taught and what truth they ignored or denied.

I am so happy for you and your wife and thankful that your daughter's recovery. And having her with you at two weeks old - how beautiful was that! Thanks for sharing such great news Raf.

So true! When I first got into the way, the Word over the World (WOW) ambassador program was marketed as the next best thing to do for spiritual growth once you’ve taken the pfal and intermediate classes which is why I signed up to go as soon as I met that requirement. Reading about twi’s current “Ambassadors of the Way Outreach Program” tm on their website, twice it shows that the end goal of this program is to make fellowships available in the local communities where ambassadors are sent. However, that was never true when I went WOW, nor is it true today. The ultimate aim of this outreach program is to run their foundational class (which today is called “Power for Abundant Living Today”) because this is where the indoctrination that twi alone teaches Biblical truth begins to really take place. The fact that twi says one thing on their website about this program while something different is practiced in real life is striking to me. Why the need to deceive? Because talking about “holding forth ‘God’s Word’ as a way ambassador sounds so much more Christian like than “promoting an organization’s class” which in itself is self-serving. The article Belle posted at the start of this thread includes this interesting detail. “June also saw another group of people visit The Way International. For two weeks, 246 students from the United States and 11 other countries participated in the annual Biblical Studies seminar, the Advanced Class. This is the third of four Advanced Classes The Way International is running in 2023.” Step one for being able to take the “Advanced” Class is taking the foundational class. That's why The Way International is so dangerous – the more classes you take and the more leadership responsibility you have like while in the Ambassador program, the more their harmful indoctrination takes hold of you and your life.

My desire to know, love, and serve God began with my first fellowship because of the love and acceptance shown to an 18 year old who believed she was totally unworthy of love and because of the teaching at that fellowship on the righteousness of God given to us through Christ which to a girl swallowed up in guilt was an incredible relief. Both of these experiences were genuine - but also genuine was what you described as the "bloody-black and swollen with greed" underbelly of twi that laid hidden right from the beginning of my involvement. The problem usually starts with accepting the declaration that the head honcho of a ministry or church alone teaches the truth. I see that now as the "alarm" to get out right away, but I didn't know that when I met up with twi. Parallel to this lie from the top dude is the systemic practice of not having the right to ask questions and disagree and still be loved and accepted. Until people, especially young people, know to look out for these going in, they won't realize the damage being done to them spiritually, mentally, financially, etc. until it's too late. That's why The Way International and so many other groups like it are dangerous today and for those whose desire to know, love and serve God leads them into higher leadership responsibilities, the more damage they experience. I agree that the answer can be "yes and no" to Rocky's question, but I also agree when someone's answer is a definite "no" because of having been lied to and spiritual abused.

If the will is never free, then nobody would be guilty of anything. The state of mind of someone charged with a crime is always a factor when determining whether they're fit to stand trial and the kind of defense the attorney will decide on for their client. It also comes into play when deliberating a verdict and deciding on a sentence if the person is found guilty. The degree of external or internal influences are mitigating factors but the fact that a trial and verdict were still necessary proves that at some point, the defendant chose to act on certain negative influences over positive influences and therefore should be held accountable for their choice.

Thank you for sharing the website. It was pretty disturbing to listen to so I can only imagine what it was like for Em to have lived through it all. I'm happy to hear of how she is doing today. Living in Canada, we usually greeted one another with a kiss, but I can't remember if doing so on the lips was the norm. Looking back on how the rod of correction was a taught and followed practice of disciplining children is painful enough, but a child being told he/she must greet "all" older people with a kiss on the lips which then opened a door for being sexual abused is atrocious. Was this expectation mainly for children of the corps? Did it stop when twi was told the rod of correction was no longer okay to use on children? I remember reading another incident where a child was given the rod of correction for not greeting a leader as she was told to do (not sure if a "holy" kiss was involved here or not). Even after being hit, the child cried and didn't want to "obey" the order. It seems the real problem was the embarrassment of the parent for the child's "disobedience" which was more important than what the child was thinking or feeling at the time. How inhumane!

I'm glad you mentioned addictions. An addiction does begin with an unhealthy focus on self and remains that way as it progresses. Guilt* and shame become the main focal points and eventually one will end up wasting away in a pit of that stuff (it's heartbreaking to see). Not only do guilt and shame add fuel to the fire, but they can also get in the way of recovery. *Focusing on the guilt alone, without making amends, is self-destructive. Because of the name of this thread, I'll mention the terms "love addiction" and "sexual addiction" [aka compulsive sexual disorder disorder] as well. They are called addictions because the behaviors associated with each can become a major, constant focus in one's life, are difficult to control, cause problems in one's life, or are harmful to you or others. However, neither are recognized as clinical terms or are included in the DSM-5. Compulsive sexual behavior - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic Love Addiction: What It Really Means and How to Handle It (healthline.com) Your point about love as an action verb is an important one to remember. It's plain to see love when someone does volunteer work from their heart, but the opportunities to be kind and help others frequently come our way. I love Phil Collins and his song "Another Day in Paradise" speaks of the need to reach out and help - like the two videos Rocky showed about dogs - but with humans.

I was looking at the statement of beliefs on twi's website and at the bottom it says, For the Glory of God and the Accuracy of His Word For Those Who Want to Know Obviously, the first line is not true since they continue to teach the Word "according to vp," who according to their fictional description of the founder writes, "For over forty years, Dr. Wierwille devoted his major energies to intensive research and teaching of the accuracy of God’s Word." (Makes you wonder what his "minor" energies went into .) It's the second line, "For Those Who Want to Know." To me, it strongly suggests exclusivity which we know they were famous for under the first 3 presidents. Why not declare, "For all who want to know;" better yet, why have a second line at all? Is it trying to compliment people into taking pfalt? If so, it reminds me of The National Enquirer's slogan, "Enquiring minds want to know." Whatever their reason, it does not sound like unconditional love.

I agree that living in denial or constantly coming down hard on ourselves is unhealthy. Apparently, I'm so practiced in the latter that I can do it without even knowing I'm doing it . There's the Serenity Prayer: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. Knowing I cannot change the past nor what others choose to do are two that come to mind. Even some personality traits are probably beyond my ability to change in this lifetime. But there's the promise of 1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

My answers to your questions are yes some of the time. Other times, I would answer each with a no. It depends on different variables for me, but when the answer is no, a follow-up question of “Why not?” would be helpful instead of shutting down emotionally and missing out on what could have been a wonderful experience.

I forgot about him - you wouldn’t think a gambling boss would be the compassionate kind, yet this one was. In the gospels, Jesus showed compassion when feeding the multitudes and healing people and even now he has compassion for us when we are struggling because he went through the same struggles himself. And as the elect of God, holy and beloved, we also are to have compassion like Jesus Christ. There was something obviously wrong with twi where it's 3 presidents were known for their hardheartedness and lack of compassion over and over again as shared by posters here.

“Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” in Matthew 22 is also said to mean to treat others the way you would treat yourself. That phrase is used 5 other times: Lev 19:18,34; Rom 13:9-10; Gal 5:13 and Jam 2:8 and their contexts are always about how to act kindly towards other. As for the mention of self-love in other verses, I only know of 2 Tim 3:2-4 which talks of loving ourselves in a self-indulgent way, “2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent (without self-control), fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady (reckless), high minded (puffed up), lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." It's easy to conclude that those "lovers of their own selves" in twi were not lovers of God and hurt a great number of people, many of whom were so confused by their fake form of godliness and others thinking if it's okay for the big chiefs to act this way then it must be okay for me to do so as well. It's very difficult to truly learn to love or experience love in a cult like twi.

I listened to the radio version waysider provided. It was a great story about the unselfishness of love between two people whose love lasted a lifetime. Very heartwarming. Thanks.