Charity

Sorry, I saw the name Bethel and immediately thought of the charismatic church that I've been reading about when following the IHOPKC meltdown. I realize now that it's about JW and that you've been following it for a while now.

Do you know much about Bethel?

Thanks Chockfull!

Sorry Twinky, just looked at this yesterday. I thought it was too long .

https://www.google.com/search?q=when+is+the+line+i+really+want+world+peace+in+miss+congeniality&client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=d85953eb7f2d9eac&ei=sq66Zf6rEMSW5OMPquKogAc&ved=0ahUKEwj-zJ7hvIiEAxVEC3kGHSoxCnAQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=when+is+the+line+i+really+want+world+peace+in+miss+congeniality&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiP3doZW4gaXMgdGhlIGxpbmUgaSByZWFsbHkgd2FudCB3b3JsZCBwZWFjZSBpbiBtaXNzIGNvbmdlbmlhbGl0eTIFECEYoAEyBBAhGBVIi3dQmghYnHVwAXgBkAEAmAGJAaABwCGqAQQ0Mi43uAEDyAEA-AEBwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICERAuGIAEGIoFGJECGLEDGIMBwgIKEAAYgAQYigUYQ8ICCxAAGIAEGIoFGJECwgITEC4YgAQYigUYQxixAxjHARjRA8ICCxAAGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIFEAAYgATCAg4QLhiABBixAxjHARjRA8ICERAuGIAEGLEDGIMBGMcBGNEDwgIgEC4YgAQYigUYkQIYsQMYgwEYlwUY3AQY3gQY4ATYAQHCAhAQABiABBiKBRhDGLEDGIMBwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAgsQLhiABBixAxiDAcICCxAuGIAEGIoFGJECwgIOEAAYgAQYigUYsQMYgwHCAiMQLhiABBiKBRiRAhiXBRjcBBjeBBjgBBj0AxjxAxj1A9gBAcICDhAAGIAEGIoFGJECGMkDwgILEAAYgAQYigUYkgPCAgcQABiABBgKwgIGEAAYFhgewgIIEAAYFhgeGA_CAggQABgWGB4YCsICCxAAGIAEGIoFGIYDwgIHECEYChigAeIDBBgAIEGIBgGQBgi6BgYIARABGBQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6ae090a1,vid:B1ZOWwW2agQ,st:0

Hi Annio, I've spent some time in the local Vineyard church here and there were some positive things I experienced, but it is definitely a charismatic church. Looking back on that time, one concern I have is their emphasis on inviting the holy spirit to come, especially during the worship service. This belief goes against the doctrine that we have holy spirit permanently dwelling within which is our connection with God and Christ. On the surface, it may not seem like a big difference but many Vineyard people put faith in "experiencing" the holy spirit like "holy laughter" or feeling warmth in their hands as evidence "he" has come to them. In 1994, there was the Toronto Blessing at a Vineyard church which brought thousands of people from around the world to experience the blessing and bring it back to their churches. John Wimber approved of it up to a certain point, until the "manifestations" of making animal sounds became too insane. However, what was happening at the beginning, Wimber believed was of God. In the church here, their view of the trinity had developed to where Jesus has now become the father and the holy spirit. Before, they were separate but all part of one God in essence. Now, when they read scriptures that are specifically about God the Father, they interpret it as being Jesus. It was so blasphemous that I left the church. One last thing, the pastor at my church fully believes in the teachings of Mike Bickle of the International House of Prayer Kansas City whose "prophetic history" includes riding in a chariot in heaven and encounters with Jesus and Michael the archangel. They are in a crisis right now due to allegations of sexual misconduct by Bickle so at lot of their false doctrine is being revealed. If the Vineyard you attend accepts Bickle's teachings, especially his book called "Growing in the Prophetic," then it is definitely something you need to research for yourself.

Your experience sounds pretty intense Rusty. I'm thankful you received such care and you are able now to share your story.

I mentioned in my post that I didn't know what the criminal code was in the US. I also took for granted that posters knew I was from Canada. Thanks for clarifying this at the beginning of your post. The terms are specific like you say: abuse, conduct, assault, misconduct and exploitation. The fact that IHOPKC's spokesperson used the words "inappropriate behavior" and "sexual immorality" shows they want to stay away from legal definitions to safeguard themselves. The Advocate Group who represents the victims and includes a lawyer used "clergy sexual abuse" in both of their public statements.

I just looked it up - didn't know this before. I don't know what it is in the US. "Changes to the Criminal Code In 1983, changes were made to the Criminal Code. There was no longer a listed offence of rape. The new crime of sexual assault was made. The changes to the laws of rape came as a result of how infrequently victims of rape would come forward to report what had been done to them. Many deep-rooted beliefs made women who were the victims of rape felt ashamed of their experiences. The laws were changed so that women who had been raped would be encouraged to come forward with their stories. The laws were also changed so as to shift the focus toward the violent nature of rape and away from the sexual aspects of it. There was also a widespread belief in there being a connection between someone not being a virgin and their believability as a witness. The laws were changed to address that as well. Sexual Assault (SA) The changes resulted in three new criminal offences. These were sexual assault (section 271 of the Criminal Code) sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party, or causing bodily harm (section 272 of the Criminal Code), and aggravated sexual assault (section 273 of the Criminal Code). The most basic of these is sexual assault"

One last thing about all the recent coverage on Mike Bickle. Bickle was heavily criticized by church leaders outside IHOPKC and many others for the "confession" letter he sent out. The letter is shown at the bottom of this report. https://julieroys.com/breaking-international-house-of-prayer-founder-mike-bickle-confesses-to-inappropriate-behavior-20-years-ago/ One of the points they make is that forgiveness is dependent upon the wrongdoer making an honest and full confession to the one they harmed. In Bickle's case, as founder of an international church, they believe the confession needs to be made to the members of the church as well. I am not talking about the healing properties of forgiveness. I'm only sharing how their position does not support those who say forgiveness is mandatory for Christians whether an admission or apology is ever given by the wrongdoer.

In the main Jane Doe's interview with The Roys Report, she said one of the reasons she came forward is because she recently became aware of how Bill Cosby had drugged his victim(s). She then realized that Bickle must have done that to her as well. Before this, she could not understand why one night she woke up alone in a hotel room and could not remember how she got there. This occurred after having dinner with Bickle in a restaurant and having a couple of drinks. Apparently, there were other occasions like this. It seems Bickle and VP have a lot in common. Thankfully, the Advocate Group (AG) which includes the two named above, are looking out for the Jane Doe's who come forward. Both Bickle and IHOPKC were criticizing them for not doing Matthew 18:15-17 which requires them to first meet with Bickle privately to confront him. Without doing so, according to them, they cannot move forward to investigate their claims. That's part of the system where abusers can get away with their abuses. As the AG has made known, a victim of abuse, especially by a person who has had spiritual authority over them, should never be expected to be alone with that person again for any reason or at any time. This statement also offsets how on a number of occasions, the top leaders have told any further victims to contact them or the investigator heading the "independent" investigation. Finally, it is the AG that is making it known that all 3 law firms IHOPKC has hired to do the investigation have not been independent which is why the Jane Doe's will not consent to being interviewed by them. These women have been labelled false accusers on social media because of their refusal to cooperate with these law firms.

Oh, if that would only be the case. As you probably know by now, IHOPKC has formally and permanently separated themselves from Bickle "due to a level of confirmed 'inappropriate behavior.'” There have been quite a few offshoots of IHOPKC in the past few years and like with twi, they basically continue to teach the same false doctrine as its founder - Mike Bickle. I'm sure more will continue to spring up now. So much of what is going on with these groups is based on the fast-growing Charismatic movement which is extremely heavy on members receiving and sharing their "personal prophecies, dreams and visions" from God. Apparently, it has become the "norm" for people to visit heaven and see Jesus to receive a prophecy (which outdoes vp's snow story anytime). IHOPKC itself was built on personal prophecies Bickle received from other "prophets" as well as his own false prophecies, dreams and visions (which are so insane if you care to google about them). This charismatic movement, of which the Vineyard Church was influential in propagating in the early 80's, believe that scripture alone is not enough. In their desire to "feel and experience" spiritual giftings, get extra knowledge from God (Gnosticism) and become "intimate with Jesus" (bridal paradigm), they are falling for "prophetic words" that obviously come either from people's own imaginations or from spiritual sources other than God. The kicker is that this movement (including Bickle) publicly say the majority of prophecies are false or wrongly interpreted (80%) which is okay because it's the 20% that are "correct" that is important. Exposing Mike Bickle, however, is bringing more awareness to all of this craziness and hopefully will slow down the growth in the charismatic movement. Unfortunately, like twi, those involved in IHOPKC have been warned to stay off social media.

I have come close to becoming obsessed with following this guy and IHOPKC - there is soooo much wrong with Bickle's history, his 24/7 prayer room, his teachings and his influence in the religious communities worldwide. What's coming out now about him is nothing new among big time leaders who have been exposed in the past, but it's how it's currently being played out by Bickle and the leaders of IHOP that shows the spiritual manipulation and deception that always go along with this stuff. Anyway, the best coverage I have found on everything that is happening is on youtube by a young couple. Their podcasts go by the name of Wake up and Win. This is one I listened to today by just the husband who used to be in IHOP and he's talking to the people still in the group that might be thinking about leaving. It's very good.

Only once did I wonder if a post of mine had been deleted (can't remember now what it was about), but I found it disappeared along with some others when GSC downloaded that new program. About the video, you know how twi whitewashed the truth about vp (and is still doing it); you can expect the same to be going on here. Bickle has agreed to the church's terms to stop all ministering in person and on social media but he has many devoted followers in leadership. This is the man who led that church into an extreme teaching of the song of Solomon being about the bride of Christ and Jesus. All romantic and sexual phrases and verses were how their followers began to relate to Jesus in their words, prayers and songs written by them. His end times teachings are horrendous as well. I came to learn about this guy through the Vineyard church I was attending. Anyway, I don't believe the truth about the sexual misconduct will ever come to light if the investigation is not a totally independent one. So thanks again to anyone who takes a few minutes to add their name to the petition!

A while ago, I shared some things about the International House of Prayer Kansas City (IHOPKC) and its founder Mike Bickle. I learned a couple of days ago that he is being investigated by the church for allegations of sexual misconduct “where the marriage covenant was not honored." You can read more about it on this website: https://www.christianpost.com/news/mike-bickle-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-multiple-women.html I have kept in touch with Susan Tuma who is a leader of a chat room like GSC where those who have left IHOP can go to discuss issues and get some healing. She knows Bickle well and has shared with me that the accusations are true and that they are much worse than I can imagine. Unlike vp and twi, this guy and his church is hugely significant within the Charismatic movement internationally. He holds a lot of power, but I've been told that he is very manipulative and likely a pathological narcissist. Susan also shared about IHOP leadership hiring a law firm/lawyer that is personal friends with Dave Sliker on their executive leadership team. She shares the leadership there is deeply untrustworthy and that is why she helped to write a petition demanding they hire an appropriate investigative team. I signed her petition yesterday and am passing it along here if any of you want to sign it as well. https://chng.it/4XgwMrvxHw P.S. Hopefully this post won't get deleted by the moderators.

I just came across this website about Jesus not being God and wondered if anyone knows a Kevin Gregg from twi? https://www.theonenessofgod.org/connect/

This is indeed sad news to hear and undoubtedly a sorrowful time for Tricia, their sons and all his family and friends. I knew Tricia when I first became involved with twi in Canada as she was the international outreach coordinator at that time. Both Lloyd and Tricia lived in London, Ontario when I was living there as well. The hope is spoken of repeatedly in the Epistles - our resurrection from the dead (should it occur before the return of Christ) is guaranteed because of Jesus' resurrection. What a joyous day that will be!

When looking back on twi, we now see how much of it was operating as a cult as well as how much we followed their practices and doctrines believing we were doing God's will. As for now, scriptures say the following holds true. God is not unrighteous to forget our work and labour of love which we showed in his name when we ministered to the believers and brought unbelievers to Christ. These treasures (rewards) are stored in heaven for us where they cannot be corrupted or stolen. What things we did lose or were kept from having because of twi's hardheartedness, greed, lust, idolatry, etc. (Gal 5 has the full list), God is willing to heal, restore and give to us when we put our trust in him. God has forgiven us for the sin in our lives during that time once we acknowledged them to him. I'm sure others could add to this list or contest to it. The point is there is comfort in knowing that not all of our time back in twi is a complete loss in God's eyes.

First thought that comes to mind is if someone does you wrong or offends you, it usually means they have taken something from you such as your health if one attacks you; your sense of safety if one threatens you; your money if one robs you; your reputation if one slanders you, etc. Since your health, sense of safety, etc. have value in your life, taking them away would mean a loss for you. Forgiving the offender without demanding repayment would then mean you absorbed the cost of that loss. Biblically speaking, Jesus absorbed the price of our sins when he redeemed us through his blood (Col 1:14). Also, when Jesus taught about forgiveness in Matthew 18, he used the example of a king whose servant owed him money. Verses 26-27 says, "The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt." The king absorbed the loss which was priced at ten thousand talents.

My misunderstanding then oldiesman - I thought when you said that the phrase "father in the word" was powerful, you were referring to how vp used it, which led me to think that your being encouraged to "go back there" meant twi. I connected the dots incorrectly - thank you for the clarification.

Does your "mother in Catholicism" happen to be the virgin Mary? I ask this because Catholics are taught that Mary is the mother of all Christians, those who believe in Jesus the God-man. Mary, the Mother of All - Catholic Life In Our Times Catholics are encouraged to pray to Mary as she is a heavenly advocate who intercedes for us. One defense of this belief is that Mary went to Jesus when there was no wine left at a wedding and that's when and where Jesus did his first miracle. If "go back there" means twi, I wonder why a mother in Catholicism would want you to go back to a group that does not believe in Jesus being the God-man (iow, the trinity).

You're right - anything done because of being pressured and not from a willing heart does not benefit the doer. When it comes to listening to God and following His word, it's because of the "we love him because he first loved us" kind of relationship we have with him. Being forgiven after we have sincerely apologized to the person we hurt as shown by our words and future actions is a welcomed relief and joy for the forgiven one.

I agree with both of you. I think of Jesus' request on the cross for God "to forgive them for they know not what they do" as well as Paul saying in 1 Timothy 1 that he was chief among sinners, yet he received mercy because he persecuted and blasphemed the church ignorantly in unbelief. Considering his credentials as a Pharisee, it would seem that he was taught wrongly by the Pharisees he learned from (one of whom was his own father) which would explain his ignorance and unbelief. This can also apply to the many who were misled by vp's and lcm's teachings. God cannot be fooled though because he looks at our hearts. Paramount to Paul's experience is that when he was presented with the truth by Christ himself, he had a complete change of mind and purpose in his life.

You're welcome. Please let me know what your thoughts are as I'm still interested in learning more about this.

The topic of forgiveness came up when I visited a Christian on Thursday. When I said I believed we are told in scripture to forgive those once they have repented, she could not accept this and gave me many reasons why I was wrong including Bible verses. One thing she said that stuck out to me was God requires repentance because He's God - we're not God and so that condition does not apply to us. It sounded right, and I left there wondering if it was true or not. The next day, I did some searches on the internet and found one that listed every reason she had given me the night before also with a Bible verse attached. 1. God still tells me to. 1 Peter 3:8-9 2. Jesus gave me an example when dying on the cross. Luke 23:34 (This one I accept.) 3. So my life isn’t blighted by bitterness and resentment. Hebrews 12:14-15 4. Forgiveness gives me power in my spirit. 1 Timothy 6:11 5. Most people don’t understand the significance of what they do. 6. Because I’m guilty too. John 8:7 The website is called 6 compelling reasons why you should forgive someone who isn't sorry (activechristianity.org) There were other websites which basically said the same thing which shows how common a belief this is among Christians, including myself up to a few days ago. Whenever they read the word "forgive" in the Bible, they automatically assume it means forgiving unconditionally, and is therefore something we must do and if we don't, we become sinners in God's eyes. I feel it's one of those areas where wrong doctrine crept into the church that appears Godly when it's not. I did find two sites which do not teach the above. They're listed below. Do You Have to Forgive People Who Don’t Even Ask for Forgiveness? (davidservant.com) Do I have to forgive a person who does not apologize? - BibleAsk