Mark Sanguinetti

Actually, a few of us here have argued that all men will ultimately be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. This is truly salvation by faith, except this faith is the faith of Jesus Christ himself. However, some will miss out on Jesus' 1000 year millenial kingdom which will take place on earth. For this argument try reading the Biblical Universalism thread. I am not going to repeat what I have written and posted over there for this thread.

Moving this to the top for Pat. Let's keep praying for our dear friend and brother.

I just came back from visiting Phil at the hospital in Santa Rosa. He seems to be doing better and says he feels better. Keep up those prayers please.

Less than 4 miles from Arlington Heights Steve? Sorry for not stopping by and seeing you. Maybe next time. I was with my cousin who lives in Chicago most of the time. I was also thinking about visiting a lady in Aurora while I was there, but travel time and conflicting schedules made that difficult for her and I.

Phil had his triple bypass. He is doing O.K. Please continue praying for him that he heals after the surgery. Oddly enough I was in Phil's old stomping ground, Chicago, over the weekend. I was promoting my company's athletic uniforms at the Illinois Youth Soccer annual convention in Arlington Heights. I just got back to my office in California.

Thanks for your prayers. I am sure Phil appreciates it. I understand he had a lot of visitors over the weekend.

A friend of mine Phil Sebastian, may have to have Triple Bypass Heart Surgery. Please keep him in your prayers. If you know Phil, you would know that he is from Chicago originally and now lives in Northern California. He was in the 6th Way Corps. Phil is a good guy. He loves people and can get along with and relate to most anyone. Please keep his health in your prayers.

The worst most cruel doctrine that I know of is when you combine predestination with eternal torment. This means some would be predestinated to eternal torment while others would be predestined to heaven. In this scenario one does not even have a real choice in receiving salvation. It is all predestined. The only way predestination would make sense is if some would be predestined to eternal life now, but that God would have a plan of reconciliation for all the others who He did not choose in the first fruits from the dead.

Yep, things haven't changed for Mike and his VPW/PFAL worship. I have always said that Mike is here for the purpose of being an example of how religiously crazy one becomes when they idolalize the PFAL class. People read what he writes and think, "I sure don't want to be crazy like he is. Maybe PFAL isn't so good after all."

Thanks for your contribution to Grease Spot Cafe Mike.

You may just have to experiment until you get it correct. It may be just as simple as checking the Reader's Spreads Box. I know there is one on the File>Print window. I make sure that is checked before I send the files to my printer.

However, I have not used PageMaker to publish anything on the Web. I did not know you could do that. We use straight HTML with a little Java Script for web publishing.

If it is any consolation I feel your pain. Double AAAARRRRRRRRRRRgggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!

I use PageMaker with my company graphic artist. He is the expert and I am the novice I might add. The following is from a version 6.5 reference book that I have:

To create a PDF from a PageMaker document:

1. Open the PageMaker document from which you wish to create a PDF.

2. Choose File>Export>Adobe>PDF

The Export Adobe PDF dialog box appears.

3. Change any options in the Export Adobe PDF box that need to be adjusted.

I recommend checking the Distill now radio button and View PDF using checkbox, so that the PDF file is both created and opened for viewing in Acrobat.

4. Click the Export button.

A dialog box appears, giving you the opportunity to name your PDF file and choose a location where it should be saved.

5. Click the Save Button

All sorts of things will happen on your screen. First, PageMaker will translate the file into PostScript. Next, Acrobat Distiller will be launched automatically, and will process the PostScript files. Finally, the new PDF will open in Acrobat. Fortunately, you don't have to do anything after you click the Save button - PageMaker does it all automatically.

Note: I wish you could see it in the original (Ha Ha Ha! Hope you don't mind my Waybrain joke.)

Actually, PageMaker is a good program, but you have to watch it like a hawk. I am constantly correcting my company catalog file as photos, and formating get corrupted at times for no good reason.

One more thing. The above are instructions from a MacIntosh book. However, I am sure that the Windows version is very similar. I know it is with PhotoShop (also an Adobe program like PageMaker).

Good luck and love your hungry kitty.

Chuck, I try to ignore the occasional argument between posters. Except when they drag out and go for a long time. I am sure that you were talking figuratively to make a point, but could we please all get along here?

And what Garth posted is why Jesus judged good vs bad based on actual tangible fruit and not merely on words that one espouses.

"By their fruit ye shall know them".

Which island will you be on? In Hawaii, hiking and snorkling are great. At least on the 3 islands that I have visited, Kaui, Maui, and Hawaii (the big Island).

Hi Danny:

Thanks for posting the material on Zoroastriansism. When were the Zorastriansism teachings written? Can you date them and the date of the popularity of this religion? Were they written by people from the Persian empire which had world dominance before the birth of Jesus? Was this the main religion of the Persian empire? Any other background that you know of?

Oh darn. I did not hear about this and I look at E-Bay auctions all the time. Did you win Steve? :D-->

I second what Chuck just said. Please share with us your information about Zoroastrianism Danny.

Mr. Reed your last post was an improvement. I actually understood most of it this time without scratching my head and pulling out my hair. Fortunately however, my hair grows fast and at times I have had a lot of it. As for your content however, you seem to be leaning quite a bit on the wisdom of man rather than the mind of Christ. I have nothing against philosophy. But since when does the philosophy of man teach us about the things of God? Rather the bible teaches us very clearly that it is foolish to try to learn the deep things of God by looking to the wisdom of man. Perhaps you should reread 1 Corinthians chapter 2.

One more thing for now. It is wonderful that you are a ministry student and seem to take an interest in Greek grammar. I recently purchased William Mounce's elementary books myself on this subject along with two others written by two other authors. Maybe some day I will have time to study them and learn biblical Greek. That is one of my goals anyway. However, you as a more advanced Greek student should remember to keep things very simple when endeavoring to explain biblical passages using Greek grammar. I have noticed that you occasionally try to do this, but unless you are also willing to teach us some of the most remote fundamentals of this subject I think you will not be able to convey your message. Perhaps you should teach less and explain more. If you care to start a separate thread on this subject (Greek grammar) I will be sure to read it.

Thanks for posting.

Jerry, for the verse that you quoted in Corinthians you forgot the rest of it. Below is the entire verse. Yes, fire means that ones bad works are destroyed. However, fire is still for purification. With the burning of the bad works one is left with only the good. Similar to when we get sick. If the germs causing our sickness are destroyed and our good bodily functions are kept intact, is this not a form of purification? And the context reads gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble. Does not the one that works with gold or silver heat up the element to a great heat in order to remove the impurities from it?

Ps 12:6

6 And the words of the LORD are flawless,

like silver refined in a furnace of clay,

purified seven times.

NIV

1 Cor 3:15

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

KJV

Another good question Oakspear. Actually, you and I fortunately have access to the Greek words behind the English. By checking your concordance you will see that the words ever and ever in the Greek are aion aion. These words in this verse should have been translated age and age and not ever and ever. Notice they do not say eternal and eternal. The bible translators would have more sense than that. If this means eternal, which it does not, how can you have two eternities? Wouldn't one be sufficient? When you check the usages of this word aion, Strong's number 165, you will see that aion is a period of time with a beginning, ending, and future. The word for "ever", "aion" in the Greek, should be age and some versions do in fact translate this word as such. Here are a few usages of this same Greek word aion found in Rev. 20:10.

Usages of "aion" that show "aion" to have an ending. The English word in quotation marks is "aion" in the Greek.

Matt 13:39-40

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the "world"; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this "world".

KJV

Matt 13:49

49 So shall it be at the end of the "world": the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

KJV

Matt 24:3

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the "world"?

KJV

Matt 28:20

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the "world". Amen.

KJV

1 Cor 2:6

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this "world", nor of the princes of this "world", that come to nought

KJV

1 Cor 10:11

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the "world" are come.

KJV

Heb 9:26

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the "world" hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

KJV

Below we see "aion" having a beginning. This also would indicate that "aion" is not synonymous with eternal.

Luke 1:70

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the "world" began:

KJV

John 9:32

32 Since "the world began" was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.

KJV

Acts 3:21

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the "world began".

KJV

Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the "world".

KJV

Eph 3:9

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the "beginning of the world" hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

KJV

Below we see "age" can be a time in the future and thus have a beginning. This also would indicate that it is not synonymous with eternal.

Matt 12:32

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this "world", neither in the world to come.

KJV

Luke 18:30

30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the "world" to come life everlasting.

KJV

1 Cor 2:7

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the "world" unto our glory:

KJV

Eph 2:7

7 That in the "ages" (for once the King James version translates it correctly) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.KJV

Heb 6:5

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers "of the world" to come,

KJV

And below we have usages of "aion" which show that it has a present time that is distinct from both the future and the past.

Gal 1:4-5

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil "world", according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for "ever" and "ever". Amen.

KJV

Eph 1:21

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this "world", but also in that which is to come:

KJV

2 Tim 4:10

10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present "world", and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

KJV

Are you gaining an understanding of this important word? With it saying age and age this looks to be a very long period of time, but this does not imply eternity. I am not suggesting that the devil's punishment is going to be easy or enjoyable. I also looked up the word for torment. Yes, this experience in the lake of fire will definitely cause the devil great pain. What exactly will occur I am not exactly sure and do not care to make a judgement at this time.

Rev 20:10

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

KJV

Interestingly the word brimstone is the Greek word with Strong's number below. Yes Oakspeare, brimstone apparently was regarded as having power to purify. See the Thayer's lexical definition below. We sure are learning new things. Thanks for your feed back.

NT:2303

theion, theiou, to

(apparently, the neuter of the adjective theios equivalent to divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off contagion (but Curtius (1879) Grundz?der Griechischen Etymologie, sec. 320 allies it with thuoo; compare the Latin fumus, English dust)),

brimstone Luke 17:29; Rev 9:17 f; Rev 14:10; 19:20; (20:10); 21:8.

(Gen 19:24; Ps. 10:6 (11:6); Ezek 38:22; Homer (900 B.C.?), Iliad 16, 228; Odyssey 22, 481, 493; (Plato) Tim. Locr., p. 99 c.; Aelian (circa 180 A.D.) v. h. 13, 15 (16); Herodian, 8, 4, 26 (9 edition, Bekker).) *

(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft)

That is a good point Danny. Especially with regard to prophetic knowledge of the future. Or we simply may not understand what is written and described.

As I said before the "Lake of Fire" in the book of Revelation is a fire of purification. From the Greek text the word fire is the Greek word 'pur'. Below is a partial definition from Thayer's unabridged. I did not include the entire definition because it is a long one. This definition points out that "pur" has a similar word "pu" from the Sanskrit which means "to purify".

NT:4442

pur,

genitive puros, to (probably from Sanskrit pu, "to purify" (compare the German: fever); Vanicek (1877 f), Griechisch-Lateinisches Etymologisches W?rbuch, p. 541; Curtius (50 A.D.) (1879), sec. 385), from Homer (900 B.C.?) down; Hebrew 'eesh;

fire: Matt 3:10,12; 7:19; 17:15; Mark 9:22; Luke 3:9,17; 9:54; John 15:6; Acts 2:19; 28:5; 1 Cor 3:13; Heb 11:34; James 3:5; 5:3; Rev 8:5,7; 9:17,18; 11:5; 13:13; 14:18; 15:2; 16:8; 20:9;

(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft)

Besides what we read in chapters 19 & 20 of the book of Revelation. Here are some other usages of this Greek word for fire "pur" from the New Testament. Please note in all the verses below I am including the English word which is translated from the Greek word "pur" surrounded by quotation marks. From reading these verses it should be more than obvious that in many usages this word "pur" refers to a fire of purification. I am not saying that this purification written about in the book of Revelation is a pleasant experience or without pain. Just like chastisement when we are wrong is sometimes painful. However, it is a necessary one for the reconciliation of man.

Matt 3:11

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with "fire":

KJV

Matt 3:12

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable "fire".

KJV

Luke 3:16-17

16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and "with fire":

17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn "with fire" unquenchable.

KJV

Acts 2:3

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as "of fire", and it sat upon each of them.

KJV

Acts 7:30

30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame "of fire" in a bush.

KJV

Rom 12:20

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals "of fire" on his head.

KJV

1 Cor 3:13-15

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by "fire"; and the "fire" shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by "fire".

KJV

Heb 1:7

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame "of fire".

KJV

Heb 12:29

29 For our God is a consuming “fire”.

KJV

Fine Danny. The Lake of Fire is somewhat mysterious anyway. My previous word study showed that the exact same Greek word found in "Lake of fire" was also used in Acts 2:3.

Acts 2:3-4

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of "fire", and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

KJV

Here and in other usages of this exact same Greek word, benefit and purification seems to occur. My judgements are based on a study of scripture and the book of Enoch which I also believe is inspired of God. However, if you think it would be interesting please do share from the source that you mentioned. I am not familiar with this one. However, was this a religion from Persia? And when was this formulated? The prophet Daniel was part of the Persian empire. Could he have influenced this religion?

Jerry thank you for your simple explanation. Mr. Reed your position is not as easily understood. However, your conclusion seems to be.

quote:

Translation alone cannot tell us what this passage intends to say about Christ. The extra light that is needed should come from the source that inspired this early Christian hymn (which is what most believe it to be based on its poetical and lyrical structure).

You say translation alone cannot tell us what this passage intends to say about Christ. You then state that the extra light of understanding needed should come from an unscriptural source that most of us here are not familiar with. We simply do not know if your source (the book of Wisdom?) is a very godly one. In order to determine this we would have to read more than just a few verses. Why don't you instead try to back up your position with scriptural references? Dave, what are you quoting from?

Jerry I have posted over 20 pages of material on this thread some of which I have written. Yes, that is true, those that commit such immoral acts will miss out on the 1000 year millenial kingdom of Christ. This was never in quetion. However, saying that those who do not accept Jesus in their lifetime will experience eternal torment this I do not believe is scriptural. Actually, some people that call on and confess the name of Jesus during their lifetime may also miss out on this millenial kingdom of Christ as well. Since we are quoting scriptures here are a few additional ones to consider.

Matt 7:21-23

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

NIV

Luke 13:22-30

22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

He said to them, 24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir (in the Greek Kurios, which is the word Lord), open the door for us.'

"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

26 "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."

NIV

Jerry you are a newcomer to this thread. I appreciate and value your input and it is great that you have taken an interest in this thread. However I think you might benefit by reading some of my earlier posts here. The question is what takes place at the general ressurection of the unjust? Is the majority of mankind who have not called on the name of Jesus Christ exterminated? Is the majority of mankind tortured for eternity? Or does God have another plan? What I have postulated previously on this thread is that the Lake of Fire following the general resurrection of the unjust is one of purification. And that God may have a plan of reconciliation also for those who have not confessed Jesus in their lifetime. God may also have a plan for those who have confessed Jesus, yet apparently will also be excluded from Jesus' millenial kingdom.

Still trying to send people to eternal torment Def? I am glad you are not God. A collection of writings totally void of the inspired scriptures I might add, but that is fine Def keep posting. Perhaps, you would have been most happy to be alive during the crusades or the Salem witch hunt. Back in the good old days when they boiled heretics in oil and set them on fire to face a tortourous smoldering death.

Nevertheless, aion still means age and aionion is the adjective form of the same root word and means age lasting. Therefore the man of sin will not face eternal punishment and by God's grace neither will we.