Mark Sanguinetti

Thanks for your kind and loving words also Roy. And thank you for your contribution to this forum.

Hi Roy:

I am just posting general knowledge here for you and others on GSC. I am not judging you negatively Roy. When I say that we should not esteem some people's service in the body of Christ above others service I am offering general knowledge from 1 Corin. chap. 12. The temptation is to elevate some functions in the body of Christ above other functions. When we were in TWI the teachers were glorified, especially Victor Wierwille. This contributed to division in the body as then some members were esteemed above others. I am trying to help break that mind set.

Roy:

One does not have to write or even teach at all in order to bless the body of Christ. Some people have a different calling. All are important and to be esteemed. Perhaps you should consider again as to why Jesus had Paul write the epistles that he wrote, while he did not or could not have others write them. I suppose one could dictate to another so that a book of the bible could be written. I understand Peter may have done that with his epistle.

Hi Roy:

Paul was a very unique individual. As the scriptures say he was a chosen vessel. Why did Jesus choose Paul? First of all Paul was very well educated. He not only spoke a few languages, but we can see in studying his writings that he was a very good writer. At this time in history this was very important as unlike today many people of his time were not well educated and could not even read or write at all. Next, Paul was very well versed in the Old Testament. We can see this with the numerous times that he quotes from the Old Testament in his writings. Next, Paul had a special relationship with Jesus Christ. The bible says in fact that Jesus literally appeared to him in his resurrected body and told Paul of his mission in life for the Lord's ministry. Paul also meditated a number of years during which time this knowledge jelled in his heart through the holy spirit. I am sure during this time that he consulted the Old Testament and had many eye opening experiences during which time a knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ began to dwell in his heart. For example, Galations 2:1 says it was fourteen years from the time of Paul's conversion to the time that he went again to Jerusalem with Barnabas to preach the gospel.

When Paul was ready and it came time to write the individual church epistles he wrote with the knowledge of what he was writing. God did not just move his hands to write or dictate to him. This knowledge was deep within Paul's heart. It may have been effortless for him in that perhaps he did not have to do rewrites and revisions of his writings unlike many of us when we write. However, it was still a thing that I am sure he worked at and I am sure this diligence involved a number of years of preparation.

I know God can raise up others to teach and write his Word with purity, but the ministry of Paul was unique and irreplaceable. Today when people teach and write the gospel they often quote from Paul's writings. This is similar to Paul quoting from the Old Tesament writings. It is simply a sign of maturity and wisdom that people will acknowledge the excellent work of others that have come before them.

quote:

---

is this pj vs ms???

---

What? No, I said I may have something to contribute to Pat's new site. Pat is a very good web site developer.

Here is the definition of "oikonomia" from E.W. Bullinger's lexicon.

"Administration of a household, actively the administrative activity of the owner or the steward; passively that which is administered"

A very similar definition to Thayer's lexicon above.

quote:

---

Can't covenant theology be called "dispensationalism" also, since God is dispensing different things, at different times, and to different groups of people? God still gets the glory for having done what He has done, and man's magnifying the historical periods doesn't enter into the picture. It is God who did it, and in His own time and choosing.

---

That is a good question DMiller and you may be able to do this or at least the two concepts can be considered to be related. I found 2 verses in the New Testament that use the word dispensation in a similar way. However, the word "oikonomia" is still the management of a household according to lexicons and the way it is used in the bible.

As long as the bible is our handbook for spiritual knowledge, faith and practice why not use the language of the bible to communicate this knowledge? Also why would not the author of Dispensationalism, E.W. Bullinger, use the same methodology of study as he does with the understanding of other biblical/spiritual subjects? Was not he the one to teach that the bible should interpret itself in the verse, context and previous usage? Was not he the one to teach us the importance of how words are used in their biblical context so that we can gain understanding of these words and with this spiritual/biblical concepts? Why should not the author of Dispensationalism be true to his methods of study? Unfortunately, with his understanding of the word translated "dispensation" from the King James Version "oikonomia" in the Greek, he does not.

I think Mr. Bullinger was to hung up on periods of time in communicating his understanding of "oikonomia". This only brought division. Division as to dividing the people of God from the Old Testament versus the New Testament. Division as to what books we should apply and what books were not really written to us. Division as to cataloging the so called administrations into time periods as we may not agree on what administration for which period of human history. I would favor what you wrote here above what I have heard from Bullinger on this subject.

Here is the Thayer's lexical definition below. Would anyone else like to post the lexical definition of "oikonomia" from Bullinger's own lexicon? My copy is at home and I do not have it with me here at my office.

NT:3622

oikonomia, oikonomias, hee

the management of a household or of household affairs; specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of others' property; the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship: Luke 16:2-4

(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000 by Biblesoft)

Very funny Pat. Good work. Myself and a co-worker may have something to contribute to this new web site.

Did you write that Sudo? That was funny. Well done.

Oikonomia has to do with stewardship. It has nothing to do with a period of time. Check the lexicon definitions and then see how this word is used in the New Testament. Dispensationalism is a doctrine which magnifies the work of man rather than the sovereign power of God. It divides human history into periods of time and then accounts for differences in man's relationship with God by magnifying historical periods. Covenant theology on the other hand accounts for the changing relationship between God and man, but attributes this to the work of God through His covenants between God and man.

If one were to search the scriptures and study biblical history one would see covenants throughout between God and man thus bringing about a changing relationship. For example, Moses going up to Mt. Sinai and bringing back the 10 commandments. This was a covenant between God and Moses and then the children of Israel. It demanded that these commandments be followed with consequences if they weren't, yet blessing if they were. Abraham and his circumcision was a covenant and through it out of his seed would come the redeemer Christ. Also through this covenant we see the blessing of God to all of mankind. Before Abraham's time God also made a covenant with Noah, assuring Noah that he would not again destroy the world by flood.

We see covenants throughout the bible leading to the New Covenant in Christ Jesus. With this covenant we are justified by Christ's faith rather than our own futile attempts to keep the Mosaic law.

CanUdigIt:

You got an out loud laugh from me. Anyone with a sense of humor like that can't be all bad. Thanks mucho.

Yea Freaky, nolo.com has some excellent legal books. I also recommend them.

I have a laptop with a computer virus or trojan. I have been trying to clean it up for the last couple of months. I have tried a number of things including Norton Anti-Virus software. Does anyone here have any ideas for cleaning out my system? If you have any links to try please post them here. One possibility is to reformat my hard drive. I hope it does not come down to this, but nothing else so far has worked. Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

Hi Mountain Snow:

It is good to hear from you. I too liked most of the people that used to be in TWI. And yes I still have friends that used to be involved with TWI. However, these friends are mixed in with other people that were never involved with TWI. I prefer it this way. I still attend a weekly bible study made up of a mixture of former Way enthusiasts and non-Way. I really like this fellowship. It is the best one that I have ever attended. The bible study is very enlightening. The friendship is real and genuine and we have even gone to Yosemite together a couple of times. Have you ever been to Yosemite? I love that place. It is knock out gorgeous. There is one thing that I do not miss about TWI though. It is the Way tree structure with all its built in politicing. Never again will I allow an unbiblical religious hierarchy to control and influence my life.

Mountain Snow, I have a teaching for you to read. You can receive it by clicking the link below. Please enjoy and it was good to hear from you again.

http://www.waychrist.com/Lordship_JC.htm

Hi John:

Nice to hear from you. I would love to stay and chat, but I am going on vacation this coming Monday and need to get all my work done before I go. You probably know the drill. Maybe if I can get my laptop debugged I will weigh in here next week from beautiful Maui, Hawaii. Until then Aloha.

Hairy you are one funny dude. If John Lynn decides to post here I am going to be nice and cordial to him. I have met him and I like him. I don't agree with everything he teaches, but much of what he teaches I appreciate. Personally, I think CES should give the 86 to their "Administrations" teachings, but we can leave that for the doctrinal forum. No, I will not give John Lynn a hard time at all on this forum. I will make a point of that.

However, like my earthy buddy Hairy implied what would really be fun is if King Okie himself would post on Grease Spot Cafe. Now that is one dude that might get his A$$ handed to him on a plate here. And it wouldn't even be out of spite at least not by me. With that giant ego that I recall King Okie has in some strange way this might even be theraputic for him.

I don't have any inside information. However, I do know something about Wierwille's and the TWI mindset. First and foremost the new president had to be loyal to Wierwille. Wierwille likely choose him because of the TWI leaders, he was the best A$$ kisser of the bunch. In addition to that he had good speaking skills and had a college degree which gave TWI a little bit of credibility with the academic world.

The drawback of Craig was that he was extremely arrogant and showed very little love for God's people.

Grizzy, out of all the people posting here that have not had direct experience with Momentous I have perhaps been the most adament and at times encouraging about people sharing their personal experience with Momentous.

With regard to my recommendation of it, pro or con, I can only go by the fruits that I have seen in the people that I know personally that have taken it. Since I live near the headquarters of Momentous I have seen the lives of some of these people first hand. It clearly has not helped them. Primarily I have seen a great deal of alcoholism amoung Momentous grads soon after taking this class. In fact, of the four people that I know best that took Momentous, three of them became alcoholics after the Momentous training. And the fourth was also a heavy drinker and was a marginal alcoholic. No names please. These four people all took Momentous 10 years ago. All four people are no longer involved with Momentous and their alcoholism is now mostly under control. In fact, three of the four no longer drink at all. The health problems that this caused them are considerable. One is even on the waiting list for a liver transplant. Another has serious feet problems and can not stand for long periods. However, the three that no longer drink are doing better health wise. The route they were taking could have resulted in early death for them.

Perhaps they all had an alcoholism problem before Momentous? However, if Momentous is so great how come this problem seemed to flair up after taking this class and why did this problem not get under control during their Momentous involvement? Why did it only get under control after they were no longer involved?

Paw:

The old Grease Spot Cafe web site used to accept HTML coding. The last time I tried this new web site it did not. Can you make this site also accept HTML coding?

Thank You.

Yep Sky4It, I offered Liar Liar a similar challenge as you on 3 separate posts here. The guy is likely all bark and no brains, but I hope he is having a good time here.

Have fun LiarLiar, but try not to pee on anyones leg. I suppose trees and fire hydrants are O.K. though.

Sky4it:

I scanned the first part of the thread that you started. It looks like you have made some excellent biblical points. I will look at what you have written more closely after my work day. Thanks.

Victor may have led thousands to Jesus Christ, but then Victor replaced looking to Jesus with looking to his organization and religious hierarchy faster than most of us could blink one eye.

http://www.waychrist.com/Lordship_JC.htm

Thanks for the detailed description of a typical Momentous training Steve. That was very enlightening. I only wish more people had the honesty, courage and love for people that you show.

Satori, I am glad you found at outlet for your creative writing skills which are considerable. Go in peace my one time rival and may the force be with you.

LiarLiar:

So you want to challenge us? I have a challenge for you also. Your idol Victor Wierwille not only was guilty of sin unbecoming of a household fellowship coordinator. He also spread doctrinal and practical error with his use of the Way Tree as a religious hierachical power structure. Victor's only reason for the Way Tree was so that he could extend religious and financial control on God's people involved with his ministry. If you are up for a challenge compare the teaching from the below link with Victor's use of the Way Tree as a religious power structure and then get back to me. This is a legitimate challenge. Now we can see if you are more than just a loud bark.

http://www.waychrist.com/Lordship_JC.htm

3rd request.

Liar Liar as long as you post here I am going to keep posting the above with the link. Victor Wierwille had not only practical error and sin in his life, but he also had a great deal of doctrinal error. The above is important to look at in order to understand what was behind Wierwille's biblically unsound and very self serving religious dogma.