Darrell Bailey

oops. My underlines did not carry. Please excuse. So sorry. DB

TopTenAwesomeTruths from TWI Following the flow of several threads about TWI doctrine and it’s continued stature with ex-way folk like CES, CFF, etc. And in conjunction with the recent post and letter from John Lynn saying, and I quote: from letter to Steve Lortz: “because I believe that we did hear the Word as it had not been taught since the first century, and I long to see my former pals and peers sort out their experiences so as to be healed as needed, and move forward in the Lord. “ and a little later in that same letter: “But the evils of the TWI system must be separated from the awesome truth of God's Word that was taught, and which saved the lives of countless people, and those who have not made that distinction have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Tens of thousands of people had positive experiences with TWI and learned the Word like they could not have anywhere else. The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have a (1) package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries, and (2) a rapidly growing number of people committed to spreading it around the world, so he used the character flaws of many leaders, combined with significant doctrinal error, to tear apart what really did have the potential to take the Word over the world. We have simply tried to hold to all the good we found in TWI while deleting the doctrinal and practical error, build on that foundation and move forward toward that same goal. What is wrong with that? We will let the fruit of our work in people's lives speak for itself.” The underlined text is my way of highlighting the text I am speaking about. Now from the post from John to Greasespot: “For 17+ years we in CES (now Spirit and Truth Fellowship Int'l) have worked very hard to hold to the awesome truth we heard in TWI, delete the significant error, and move forward with the Lord Jesus. ... I have seen the carnage firsthand and have done my best, flawed though it is, to help to heal people's hearts. But the evils of TWI must be separated from the awesome truth of God's Word that was taught, and which saved the lives of countless people. Those who have not made that distinction have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, to their own spiritual detriment. Tens of thousands of people had positive experiences with TWI and learned the Word like they could not have anywhere else. The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have (1) a package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries, and (2) a rapidly growing number of people committed to spreading it around the world, so he used the character flaws of many leaders (including me), combined with significant doctrinal error (which led to practical error), to tear apart what really did have the potential to take the Word over the world. “ ____ It should be clear that John and others in CES, as well as many who post here at the Greasy Spot, believe there was and still is significant truth in some but not all twi doctrine. My question is: What specific doctrines or practices did you learn in your “way years” that are: Really usable in your “life” And, that are not available (fitting the “not known for centuries” criterion) in other places where people teach, study, share the Bible, even in other times and places? ------- Now I am sincerely asking this question. I have my own experiences, my own study and research and conclusions. It has been almost 25 years since I heard a twig leader teach. I visited with John Lynn around 1990 and attended a CES meeting or two then. I have studied continually since I left the way, and at this point in my life there are very few twi “principles” that I “operate”, or am aware that I operate. There are not any things from TWI that I consider to be of significant value in my life. I still believe in God and Jesus. I pray every day to my Father and to the Lord Jesus. I have seen time and time again how my prayers have helped the people I pray for and how my behavior and interaction with those people has changed because the Lord used my prayers to him to show me how I could: Help those people myself and how much I needed their help. It has increased my respect for those who I pray for. I am confident that the Lord Jesus is working with all of us who post here, whether we are in harmony about all subjects of doctrine or not. I do believe that Jesus is Master (as in Instructor) and Commander (as in Lord). Since the way I have learned so much about all these things from many different sources which contradicts virtually the essence of twi doctrine, practice and attitude. -- ---- Discuss among yourselves. (cough, cough) More to come . . . Darrell Bailey Greater Indianapolis Area

Note: I posted these words in the Hi! It's the real me thread, as well as here for obvious reasons. --- Does it bother anyone else that there are literally word for word duplications between JAL's letter to Steve Lortz and his epistle to those living in LandoftheGreasy Spot? I thought that I was confused as to which thread said what. Then I realized that JAL had posted here mostly word for word what he had written to Steve. Something about that tells me that we still are seeing the same "form letter" with the "I Love You" approach. ---- Now before some of you fellow g-spotters think any more about what you have just read (and make the conclusion that I am just going to trash John Lynn or just be critical) in my opening comments consider all that I am now about to write: In June of 1972 I attended a Sunday Night meeting in a VFW hall in Indianapolis at the invitation of a friend. During that meeting, and several subsequent Sunday meetings I heard someone speak about God and the Bible like I had never heard before. The logic and passion of his delivery as well as his likeable personality and sense of humor were big factors in me listening intently. At the conclusion of the first meeting there was an opportunity for attendees to come forward and be prayed for, or in their words to be "ministered to". Having a need, I stepped forward and a person stepped behind me and prayed for me, with an almost supernatural ability to mention specific things that had prompted me to step forward. The teacher for those meetings and the co-ordinator of those people ministering was a young man named John Lynn. -- More to come . . . Darrell Bailey Greater Indianapolis Area

Does it bother anyone else that there are literally word for word duplications between JAL's letter to Steve Lortz and his epistle to those living in LandoftheGreasy Spot? I thought that I was confused as to which thread said what. Then I realized that JAL had posted here mostly word for word what he had written to Steve. Something about that tells me that we still are seeing the same "form letter" with the "I Love You" approach. ---- Now before some of you fellow g-spotters think any more about what you have just read (and make the conclusion that I am just going to trash John Lynn or just be critical) in my opening comments consider all that I am now about to write: In June of 1972 I attended a Sunday Night meeting in a VFW hall in Indianapolis at the invitation of a friend. During that meeting, and several subsequent Sunday meetings I heard someone speak about God and the Bible like I had never heard before. The logic and passion of his delivery as well as his likeable personality and sense of humor were big factors in me listening intently. At the conclusion of the first meeting there was an opportunity for attendees to come forward and be prayed for, or in their words to be "ministered to". Having a need, I stepped forward and a person stepped behind me and prayed for me, with an almost supernatural ability to mention specific things that had prompted me to step forward. The teacher for those meetings and the co-ordinator of those people ministering was a young man named John Lynn. -- More to come . . . Darrell Bailey Greater Indianapolis Area

All the comments on this thread are good. Some issues are being mentioned that I had almost forgotten about since some of these doctrines I shed twenty years ago. One of my first concerns about way doctrine in 78 and 79 was about the Cross. To put it as succinctly as I can, the cross of our Lord Jesus, and his passion were greatly under-explained to us in twi. My perception was and still is: Twi leadership was clueless about how to really be transfomed by the renewing of the mind. The particular way VPW explained the mystery and it's refrences in the first epistle of Corinthians began to look inaccurate to me. As I read I Cor. it appeared that the essence of our new life in Christ, the mystery of our life together as an assembly and as a body and ahead, was centered in and on the cross. I read that even Chrisrians would experience pain and suffering and humiliation as they shared the cross and it did it's work on their old man. I saw the cross as the end of the old nature, but the old man being carried forward in my behavior as one who was still functioning as aslave to sin. But Corinthians ( s well as just about every other epistle) says that we are not our own we arebought with a price. The Lord Jesus bought us by going to the cross. He purchased our lives from sin, and as we are continuing in his word, webecome his disciples, we learn his truth, and that truth makes us free. He ransomed us. He Freed us. He is our liberator. My perception was and still is: Twi leadership was clueless about the old man and the new man. My perception was and still is: Twi leadership was clueless in teaching that the old "sin nature" (Note: I did nor say "old man") continued exist in our lives and the rest of our lives is a struggle between a sin nature and a righteous nature. I have spent a lot of time reading about this "sin nature" thing and I asked to do a presentation to a CES gathering years ago but for one reason or another I was not asked to teach. If the reason I was turned down was only a schdule or time-slotting issue I believe I would have been given another opportunity. But, it was made clear to me that my understanding on the two-natures thing was in contradiction to CES. So even though they had just recently been publshing "Dialogue". They didn't want real dialogue on doctrine, just their own monologue. TWI did not teach it's people how to walk in the righteosness of their Lord Jesus. TWI taught a "christianized" version of Pharasaism. A pseudo-spiritual legalism that resulted in license. The very informative and liberating text from Romans, "The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." TWI replaced the Lordship of Jesus with a fellowship of seekers following a bunch of modern-day pharisees with anendless list of qualifications for all "believers" to apply themselves toward. --- Too much to say. Gotta go for a few minutes and cool off. Thanks for listening and contributing. God Bless, Darrell Bailey Indianapolis

It is refreshing to me to hear others speak of Watchman Nee. One of the things that sheltered me through the mental storms swirling about doctrine and practice (post-way) was reading Nee's "Normal Christian Life". Eventually I went on to collect many of his books. "The Spiritual Man" and "Changed into his likeness" are fantastic. "Release of the Spirit" and "Sit, Walk, Stand" (a brief study of Ephesians) and "The body of Christ" are great as well. I am pretty confident that Nee got his spirit, soul, and body start from the work of G.H. Pember. Pember's book "Earth's Earliest Ages" (published in the mid to late 1800's) has some fascinating things about the creation of the world, the angels, Lucifer and Adam. Pember's work far exceeds anything I every heard in twi (pfal, intermediate, advanced, WOW ambassador, and six months of waycoprse) about the fall of Lucifer. Interesting things in this thread. Sky4it, I share your enthusiasm for how the Lord Jesus is working in us today, even in what appears to be "secular" parts of our lives. The works I mentioned above as well as some of the "deeper life" literature and the Keswick Convention stuff was a secure segway for me to start looking at what I felt was lacking in my life and in my sprit-soul diet. Since then ( I left twi in 79 over doctrinal and practical differences) I have been spending the last ten years or so learning about what the bible says about the Lordship of Jesus, as well as learning how to live as one of his apprentices on a daily basis. I firmly believe that once we are born again there is nothing secular about our lives afterwards. God Bless you all, Darrell Bailey Indianapolis P.S. Watchman Nee was imprisoned for about twenty years in China before his death in prison.

Howdy Folks, I have been reading and watching this thread over the past few days. However I can't now remember all the points that have been made already, so if I repeat something already posted or don't acknowledge a previous post it simply means I don't remember it. My impression is that something of a conclusion has been made and that conclusion has been reinforced by the last few posts on page 6 and the first on the 7th. So I would like to add my 2cents worth in a combination of eyewitness, third-person,hearsay, and commentary. I was only a member of the 6th corps for the first 6 or 7 months. I left Emporia in the spring of '75. While there, I heard things that would indicate that there was a flippant attitude by leaders in the way toward sex. And part of that attitude was in the context of "being spiritual enough" But it was not just a handy pickup followup line developed by horny corps males. It originated from VeePee. After I left I heard more info that verifies that VPW originated and disseminated (no pun intended) this doctrine. Before I describe what the witnesses say, let me describe my theory of what was happening. ---- VPW had two (if not more) specific doctrines about "sex" and "fornication". One was private one was public. The private one was not "delivered" to all the corps. The public one was. The justification for differing doctrines was in the "spiritual enough to handle what I am about to tell you" category. (Makes you want to barf, doesn't it?) The entire concept of the corpse was "spiritual training" that was obtained by "living with the man of god (or the Teacher)" So if you heard the "inner", private teaching you were really in the inner circle, you were spiritual enough to realize that there was no "spiritual difference" between the flesh on your nose and the flesh around those "nether" regions. --- There were at least a couple of 5th corp "repeaters" (dropouts?) that were in residence with the 6th. One was a very attractive female. On one of the very few times I had the pleasure of talking to her she told me about how DR had taught them (I assume the 5th corpse) that there was no spiritual difference in the flesh on her nose and certain other parts of her body. ----- Chances are if you were an attractive lady in the corps and you were around at the right time and your resistance to sex was not anticipated then you would end up being "taught" the doctrine and the "practice" by the teacher. ----- After I left the corps (but not TWI till 3 years later) I heard of many women who were tricked or gradually taught to "bless the man of god" with sex. There were 4th corps women who besides providing these services to the mog, recruited and delivered other lovely young women to VPW, as well as to other "leaders". I think that the JXXX LXXX letter in the eighties discusses some of this. -------- Between my exit from the corps and my exit from the way itself I heard firsthand from a6th corps grad how she was essentially coerced into having sex with VPW. And that many other women had been as well. Some I knew and there were corroberating (sic) events in their lives that fit with what I was being told. When it came to sex, some leaders from 74, 75, 76 were talking often about the "whatsever is not of faith, is sin" crap. (Hope R. you did a wonderful post on that!) ------- Thanks and God Bless, DB

The comments on this thread have been interesting. From my perspective (knowing that we all have some specific view of these things) I see several individual posters suggesting things that taken together really make complimentary sense. And as whole the common concept proposed transcends the component parts. __ Years ago I did some inquiry into the uses of agapeo, and the english word "charity". As well as many hours of research into the Lordship of Jesus Christ. ___ Now do not consider my words as an authority as it has been a while since I did this "agape" research and I don't have the notes nearby (so I am working off of memory) The essential meaning of agapao and charity was to simply be so enamored of some thing, some one that you "cherished" it. It is the object of your affection. You have passion for it. You just "love" it. -- Many people have commented on how their love for God is demonstrated as they reach out to people, serving helping attending to the needs of plain old people: family, friends, strangers, co-workers, etc. I totally support those examples of loving God. From my present theological perspective, I see that the passion in our personal lives to take care of those around us as the ultimate expression of godly love. I think that is what we see in our Lord Jesus' life and death and in his resurrected body now. Jesus so loved the life and the ministry that the Father gave him that he always did his Father's will. Jesus had passion to serve other people and to subject his will to the Father's. His example of service is our blueprint as well as our foundation. Jesus' example of successfully extending the will of his father (being about his Father's business) to all he met bears some analysis. Does his passion simply start in the Garden of Gethsemane, do we only see his passion on the Cross? I think he walked in passion and satisfaction every day, whther it was a miracle day or not. He perfected the practicing of a godly passionate life every day building up to the most diifcult yet essential challenge -- making payment for our sins and purchasing our redemption. -- Do we want to continue to believe that in our own personal struggles of life, striving against sin that our ONE LIVING EXAMPLE, the Lord Jesus, perfected life for us by: avoiding sin? No. Our successful walk will happen if we follow the positive example of Jesus in being satisfied and motivated by loving our neighbor as ourselves and thereby fulfilling all the law. Can we consider that Jesus so naturally loved what he was called to do (not just as a sacrifice for sin but as a model of righteousnes) that his satisfaction came from supplying the solution to the problems of the people he encountered. I believe that the ability of any living thing to have passion, to experience pleasure and pain, to dream and to desire is the very fuel and focus that keeps them alive and alert to continuing their life. I believe that the ability to cherish particular types of food, entertainment, recreation, people and parts of nature is God-given and ordained. The ability to like and dislike is the built in "sensor" hardware that we utilize to enjoy God and Life. __ So love is an innate ability, that once we have been freed from the slavery of sin, and have understood who our new Master and Lord is: Jesus, that we go forward loving God and those who he has given us as if we saw them as really HIS. You see a slave had no possessions of his own. We became slaves to sin when Adam fell. We became slaves of righteousness when Jesus paid out ransom. All the possessions we thought were ours when we had no knowledge of our enslaved status we can now see belong to our Lord and Master, Jesus. And everything he has ultimately belongs to the Father. So everything in our lives really belongs to God. Our family members, our homes, our pets, our friends our coworkers, etc -- all belong to God. And as we take care of them we are taking care of God's stuff, and he is pleased with that and sees that our love for him and them is essentially the same. God Bless

Addendum: There is a huge if not fatal flaw in assuming that familiarity with where certain containers of information (or truth) are located: with the familiarity of a person experienced with living in those truths. In other words: TWI gloried in their "knowledge" of what they thought was the christian life. I submit that all they had was a different take on simply knowing where in the library (we call the Bible) particular books and passages and sentences could be found. There is a crucial difference between a librarian pointing you to all the library's resources (on say how to program javascript) and you interacting with a person who has not only read the books but has built project after project with javascript. The elitism of the way was so wrong because they simply presented an alternative approach to pseudo-discipleship, which because of it's "itnellectual" nature could never really be proven to be more effective in real life than what the competition was selling, since it was pretty ineffective in the real world as well. D.

Lots of good comments here. The error in TWI's presentation of the mystery was one of the first doctrinal holes I perceived in their entire system. I remember reading Corinthians over and over and eventually seeing the very opposite of what VP was saying. He came to Indy in the early 70's and did a big public teaching out of I Cor. That presentation actually became the Sunday Night teaching of the week. (I used to have it in my reel to reel colection and I listened to it many times) TWi attitude and position placed them as spiritually mature and elite, but what they did not say or admit was that they skipped the difficult part of the "maturing" process, accepting the cross, dealing with it's effect upon sin in us and our lives. They skipped around Jesus's cross to the good stuff, which is pointless if you do not put off the old. God Bless you all Darrell

Socks: Happy Birthday and God Bless! We are glad to have you be a part of our world. D.B.

W O W, You folks are kicking some serious butt here. In a multitude of posters there cometh forth a whole lotta good stuff. The "Two ministries thing" is a fantastic way of simplifying or explaining our dilemna of having obtained some level of elightenment about scriptural matters while being dissapointed with the way the pseudo-ministry of twi&vpw failed to be a usable resource in the actual learning and maturing of us believers in the Lord Jesus. God Bless Keep it up, Darrell