Jason P

Nope, nothing new. If they could take Loy's name off the book, I'm sure they would. It's very well done so they don't want to get rid of it. I would argue that it's inaccurate and often dangerous garbage based on speculation and ego, but it's very well done in that it looks scholarly and logical and reasonable. It's funny how if you start with your conclusion and work backwards from there, you can prove just about anything you want. And if you present it forwards rather than backwards when you "teach" it to others, it will look very solid and well-reasoned - airtight to someone who doesn't have the desire or ability to look at it critically and pick it apart to see if it holds up. That's the one thing I think LCM learned that VPW didn't always have a grip on. VPW presented his arguments from the conclusion and worked backwards, which is where the shoddy research and lack of a logical progression become glaring... if you're not inclined to worship him to begin with. Try re-rereading "Christians Should Be Prosperous" from this angle and watch how it falls apart. That is, if you didn't do the right thing and burn it. So, they're only keeping it because it maintains the illusion of a scholarly research organization. It's a turd, but a very well-polished shiny one and TWI needs all those it can hang on to. It certainly isn't going to be coming up with any more in the future, now is it?

Another of five million reasons to just not use Internet Explorer unless you absolutely have to: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Jun25.html Now to beat a dead horse some more, here's what I tell everyone when they call me over to fix their "broken" computers. Security rule #1 for Windows users: Don't use IE. I absolutely do NOT recommend just switching to MYIE or Avant or the other IE shell programs. Those are subject to all the same problems that vanilla IE is. All they do is try to emulate the functions that Opera pioneered and Mozilla has copied (very well, I might add). They may block popups but popups are only the tip of the iceberg for IE problems. Only use IE if a site you need absolutely will not work in Opera or Mozilla. Rule #2: Firewall it. Routers are beautiful at keeping attackers out, but these days you have to have a software "firewall" to keep any accidental infections from getting out as well. Sygate is my favorite but it takes a bit more tweaking than some. I see no reason not to recommend ZoneAlarm and it's amazingly easy to set up. I know I'm preaching to the choir on these things but just in case someone needs to know... I use Sygate to keep programs like Real Player (If only those news sites would stop using the crappy Real format) and Windows Media Player from connecting to the internet every five seconds to look for "updates" that I don't need. If you get a trojan or virus, they can't call out from your machine unless you tell the firewall to let them. GRC and IP addresses: Unless you're using a proxy, your IP has to be visible - otherwise, the website wouldn't have a place to send the information. No problem there if you're using a modern browser - nothing bad can happen without you initiating it and if for some reason you don't want someone getting to where you've been you can clear your history and cookies with a couple clicks. RUle #3: Antivirus. Norton, McAfee and PC-Cillin are my favorites - I use PC-Cillin because it's a bit lighter on resources and is nuts about updating. Good free ones are at http://www.grisoft.com and http://www.avast.com - geeks seem to swear by AVG from Grisoft and it's good but Avast is a bit less annoying and quirky and is easier for the beginner. Rule #4: As has already been said over and over again, Spybot and Adaware, and run them once a week or so whether or not you think you need to - and pretty much ignore the other programs that say they find spyware as those two will do the job safely. I haven't caught any spooks in a couple years or so but I'm a bit fussy and anal about how I use my computer on the 'net (oh, you noticed?). I STILL run those two, just in case... Most other people I know pick up something at least once a month or so because they violate one or more of the above rules (especially the IE one, which is getting to be the worst one to violate from what I've read in recent weeks). There are other things you can do to tighten up a machine, but those few basics will cover almost anything anyone ever really needs. You could play with GhostSurf or Proxomitron or a few other things like that to get a bit more of a semblance of anonymity but I don't use those myself because I don't care if the New York Times or CNET knows my IP address... if you're interested in those kind of things Google knows more than I do. How to get spyware: 1. Use IE regularly, especially if you surf porn or gambling or other sites your mom wouldn't approve of. 2. Use warez (pirate) software. If you don't know what I'm talking about or where to get it, good. Don't bother unless you like reformatting your computer. 3. Use Kazaa or Morpheus or any of a number of other filesharing apps. The only "clean" ones I know of for sure are WinMX and Soulseek, if you insist on doing the P2P thing. Oh, but if you're sharing stuff you shouldn't be, you are NOT anonymous on ANY of those programs. Simply put, whoever's uploading or downloading has your IP address and can track you down if they want to. 4. Installing "free" software from the Web. Read what Zix said again. Most of the "free" stuff out there adds functionality you can probably live without or can get in a safer manner. Pricelessware is a fantastic site for finding free software that IS safe. http://www.download.com is pretty good about warning you when a program adds third party stuff - which is generally shorthand for spyware and/or adware - but be careful there anyway. As Zixar said, Google is a nice quick resource for getting information about a program you feel funny about. Anything beyond that is diminishing returns for the casual home user so I'll stop now.

I couldn't say it better than George Aar so just read his again.

Wow, JT. Bummer. Not that I'm surprised. There are so many different pockets of "believers" with so many different interpretations of the same instructions and I know the tendency is nearly always towards less rather than more freedom. The particular area I'm speaking of here went from one extreme to another in liberalism/Nazism almost daily, but in the matter of what to teach and how to teach it, I guess we were much more liberal. Clarification: I always assumed that the assigned topics were merely suggestions and acted accordingly with no one ever objecting to how and what I taught. I didn't know anyone assumed otherwise until someone complained about the stifling subjects at a coordinator meeting. Me never being submissive enough to keep my mouth shut all the time, I said that I just ignored the suggestions and taught what I thought needed taught. That was the point when the RC said that this was the way he wanted it done and that sometimes a particular group's need was more important than mimicking what was coming from HQ. In fact, I know I recollect him saying that people already heard it or read it once and we were absolutely NOT to merely repeat the tape/magazine/book - that we needed to put our hearts and souls into it and keep the needs of our fellowships first. Weird. And this was a guy that has probably been called "Nazi" by more people than anyone since Hitler... and not always without cause. I'm sorry it didn't work that way everywhere, and I can't help but imagine how miserable it was to be in your shoes, JT. I think I would have voluntarily quit "teaching" if I just had to regurgitate. But who knows - cultists have an amazing knack for rationalization when it comes to putting up with oppression.

Insurgent: Sometimes I think that's all that needs to be said about the matter. And I was just as nuts to fall for it and to stick with it for so many years. And everything you pointed out should be printed in gigantic letters on billboards all around New Knoxville. I don't like the people in charge any more than anyone else does and I know that what they promote and do is destructive. Firsthand. And have seen it in many people I've loved over the years. Can't sensibly argue otherwise and I know my life certainly is no better for having been exposed to this organization. I do not and can not and would not defend any of the doctrine spewed forth from New Knoxville and have held on to virtually nothing I picked up in my 12 years as a Koolaid drinker. I'm only trying to say that TWI is not DELIBERATELY a tax dodge covering up for a con game. And I would suggest that in the absence of honest evidence, it is not entirely responsible spout that kind of speculation, though it was presented in a relatively "safe" manner. Everything you listed and more (and more and more and more) is more than enough to convince people their time and money are much better spent elsewhere. Can it be proven that in effect TWI is NOT legitimately a religious organization but is in fact a MLM scheme hiding behind a "church" shelter, regardless of the intent? I doubt it, but if it can be count me in as a cheerleader. Can the intent be proven? I've got a shoe and steak sauce waiting and will be happy to chow down on it as the verdict is being written and certain "leaders" are led off in handcuffs. Goey: Prove a negative? Can't do it. Maybe this is why this country is an "innocent until proven guilty" kind of place. How am I so certain of what I say? Well, if there IS a WayGB they are probably already bugging people, and they are the wrong people. No one has any way of making the connection except the people involved unless someone's been tapping every conceivable form of communication. Don't believe me; it really makes no huge difference to me but I think an innie, and especially one who knows the people involved, would think that the MLM suggestion, which is where this started and really all I meant to address, is lousy speculation and not really a useful point of debate. There are countless accusations that can be made that will stick, and there are countless points that when added together can make the most sold-out Koolaid addict have to sit down and evaluate things. And there are countless ways to help in the healing process for people who have bailed. To me, this whole point is a blind fishing expedition and a distraction from any real productive discussion. That's my opinion. OM: It's not quite an automatic assumption: The man heard God speak audibly and tell him something that obviously didn't come to pass and backfired in spectacular fashion. He saw phantom snow fall. We could go on all day about the outrageous claims this guy made - either he lied, which means he knowingly based the whole thing on a stack of lies, or he was insane and believed it. I know that if you accept a lot of often contradictory supernatural assumptions there are other possibilities, but I choose to accept what is obvious and easily explained over what needs a mountain of supernatural excuses to reconcile. Hence my statement and I hope I presented it as an opinion and not fact. To me, there is no supernatural explanation necessary to anything that I know to have happened in TWI history so I choose to narrow it down to those two possibilities. And I think this is as far as any of this can go without becoming even less constructive so I think I'm done with my involvement in this thread. Finally: what's the quote? Something like never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by stupidity? I think that's a pretty good rule in many things TWI, which is not to diminish the impact and destructiveness of the stupidity.

Well, let me put it this way: I know it from personal knowledge, not speculation. The only way I could speak from better knowledge of the situation would be for me to be a mind reader or to be the people themselves. The only people I see saying that "leadership" are deliberately and knowingly perpetuating a scam are people with no access to first-hand information. I can't prove it anymore than I can prove that someone's parents sincerely love their kids despite their abusive treatment of them. But if I know the parents and have access to years of firsthand experience with them and all this evidence adds up to a 99.9% certain knowledge that what they were sincere in their abuse, I would feel like it was worthwhile to offer that knowledge to counter speculation that they knew they were doing nasty, despicable things. I offer my insight of the intent here, that's all. Now, if there are laws that have been broken, good intent or lack of knowledge of the law are no excuse ("your honor, I did not know that armed robbery is illegal" is no defense). I would be happy to provide whatever help I could to see a conviction come about if this were the case. Is TWI a MLM scheme and can this be proven? Man, I wish, and if you can do it I want to see it happen. To say that it is a deliberate MLM scheme, however, is mere speculation and I was trying to offer some insight based on what I know. Can I prove to you it's not deliberate? I can't prove to you anything you've already decided isn't true. And I can't prove that TWI is NOT an intentional moneymaking scam any more than I can prove any other negative. I DO think it's damaging to credibility to imply criminal intent, though, since anyone with firsthand access to the people being spoken of here know it's not true. As much as anyone outside of God or the people themselves ever can know.

Okay, before I leave for work let me switch from what I thought would be a mildly amusing, obviously ridiculous analogy to just saying it in black and white: Yes, the product is dangerous and destructive. We all know that and if the people running the show were rational observers not blinded by religious idiocy, they would recognize that. They SHOULD recognize it and the fact that they persist is... irresponsible is the very nicest word I can come up with. The people running the crusades SHOULD have seen the destruction and evil they were responsible for, but religious mania is a beautifully blinding disease. I will not and cannot excuse the doctrine and practices and if a genie popped up and offered me one wish it would be to make the last 13 years of my life go away. However, here's my point: The people in charge of this puppet show believe that what they believe and how they are carrying out their beliefs is right. It's a con of gargantuan proportions, but the people running the con don't know it. They may lie and play games with the truth to defend it, but in their eyes they are doing it for a good cause. You can catch them in a lie or half-truth in defense of their actions, and I hope you do, but you will not catch them running a criminal organization with malicious intent. I do not present this as an opinion or a point for debate. This is simply how it is. They believe it and they are not deliberately running any kind of MLM or con job. You can not and will not get them to admit to it and they would pass a polygraph with flying colors. If there is ANY truth to the insinuations that people are knowingly performing fraudulent or illegal acts, no one but the people themselves have any way of knowing it and they have NOT given a hint of an admission to anyone. This is fact and if you find someone able to go to a witness stand and show any proof otherwise without performing perjury, I will happily eat my shoe and send you a videotape of me doing it. As far as I'm concerned this isn't even a good point to debate without any proof. To make another analogy that will get attacked: This is on a par with claiming that a bad parent who loved his children deeply and thought that beating his children daily was the decent, proper loving thing to do. The act is despicable and evil and inexplicable to a rational outside observer, but the intentions are only good. The intentions of TWI are exactly as they state them. If you ask for my honest opinion of DocVic, I believe he was either absolutely nuts or he KNEW that what he was pulling was a huge scam. I lean towards the latter. The current administration believes it and is chugging Koolaid along with the faithful followers. I can think of two other denominations (one of which is HUGE) that were started by people who knew they were con artists but are now most likely run by people who believe it. In TWI's case, I know the people in charge believe the swill and I don't believe there's any point in debating intentions unless joustin windmills is your favorite sport. The end results are what should be shouted from the rooftops, as those are undeniable. To someone not blinded by religious mania, that is...

There are no smoky backroom conspiracies if that's what you're asking. They really believe in the "product" they're selling. The nature of the product in this case dictates that it is spread in this way, and it just so happens that they have the bible and church history backing them up. It's just another corporation selling a product, only in this case the product is rotten and the people selling it don't have decent training. Repeat: no conspiracies. They believe this stuff. No one is deliberately trying to bilk anyone. Trying to prove this is barking up the wrong tree when the problem is how dangerous the actual product is. They're like tobacco executives with the honest belief that smoking prolongs your life and that emphysema and lung cancer and bad breath are just aspects of the more abundant life ™. When you use a supernatural filter to view how things work in a natural world, you end up sincerely doing a lot of wacky and destructive things that a normal-thinking outsider could only see as corrupt or even criminal.

The secret to "assigned teachings" in my area was this: teach what was needed or what you were excited about teaching at the time (in my case, whatever I was independently studying) and make it connect at some point with the title if you could. If you couldn't make it connect, call it by that title anyway and no one ever really noticed or cared. My BC (Who was also the RC) said that was what we SHOULD do and supported me doing it that way, especially since I was pretty well in tune with the needs of the fellowship and was pretty good at presenting very useful stuff in a fairly logical manner. Knowing him, he wasn't bucking the system so it was "available" to not do the cookie-cutter thing but apparently not very well advertised. As with most things TWI...

Wow. I was gonna bring this up and here we are. I remember the time as a HFC assistant when I was given the green light to lead a group word study instead of a teaching one night. I had been nagging for the chance to do it for so long that I finally won out. My coordinator (wonderful person, just Way conditioned through and through) mentioned how nice it would be to have each person bring a "research" book - PFAL, the blue book, JCING, etc... I think I was a bit surprised even though I'd been around for years by this time (nothing gets past this kid, no way) and said that I intended to do a study and use the REAL research materials on my shelf and others... lexicons (hated Bullingers and usually used Thayer's the most), Strong's, etc. etc. - plus show how the context will help with deeper and more accurate shades of meaning. The coordinator thought I was trying to be too intellectual with it but gave me the go-ahead. We did one night of studying with all the "real" research materials we had handy (it went about an hour but felt like ten minutes to me - we deliberately did only one song and kept everything else to a minimum for this night), and then everyone who wanted to got to teach for two minutes apiece on further study of what we worked that night a week later. I heard some astounding teachings that next week that sounded NOTHING like usual TWI teachings. People seemed genuinely excited to be something other than parrots. I always tried to encourage independent thinking, all the while missing the fact that I was definitely not fitting in with the established Way of doing things. I never did a teaching with more than a quote or two from an article or book (Just to tie things in with the Obsession Of The Week now and then) in all the years I taught at fellowships. I was aware of (and mildly horrified by... but only briefly) DocVic's nonsensical definition of "research" but personally never fell for it for a minute. Too bad I thought all the other stuff being "taught" was similarly "researched" rather than re-read and regurgitated. This was another key in my leaving - when our RC (who I was quite close with and still have respect for - for all his failings he is sincere in his beliefs and his actions and words reflect the beliefs to the best of his ability) told me in no uncertain terms that ALL the Corps had "researched" Martinpuke's teachings and classes and came to the conclusion that with the exception of the attitude and manner of teaching and a very minor jot or tittle of meaning it was all accurate and would continue to be taught as long as the ministry lasts. This was within the last year. Loy is gone, gone, gone, never to return. Make no mistake about that - he will not ever be allowed in a decision making category again. But the word most adamantly was that LCM's teachings and doctrine will stand and will continue to be taught. Only the manner of presentation is to change. So much for "research." I could go on forever on this but I'll leave it here for now.

Hey, give the 4 D's some credit: they helped me realize that it was just a behavior conditioning tool and had no logical application according to the bible (small "b" not a typo) or Real Life. It was just a short step or two from there to the door for me. If I ever want to control a person or group of people I'll use the "4 D" technique as my foundation and they'll be MINE, ALL MINE!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I WILL RULE THE- sorry, ignore that. Really. Pretend you didn't see it. Every time rational, logical thought without "spiritual" rationalizations and excuses cropped up, someone was sure to toss the 4 D's my way and I slurped it up every time until the bitter end. Well, there's always the SIT trick to help you clear your mind of those nagging questions and observations... actually, once I realized that the 4 D's were a behavior control device, I realized how many of the other "foundational" principles I was following had similar effects. Now, I will be the last to say that the mind and behavior controlling techniques were ever deliberately intended to thwart free will and logical reasoning, but once those in charge saw the desired results being produced when something like this was taught, it was easy for them to sincerely believe that they'd stumbled upon a clear godly (not a typo...) technique for helping god's people realize the more abundant prevailing (^*&*%%&^%^ etc... They really, really, honestly believe this stuff, folks. That's what makes it so sad. I believe that VPW was either a stone cold liar or insane (or a bit of both) and LCM has serious mental problems, but none of the other leadership I personally worked with or dealt with in any way ever thought this .... was anything but god's own truth. Big derail, sorry. My subscription finally ran out and the ones I got since I gave up the Kool-Aid habit never made it past the garbage can next to the mailbox, so I have nothing else to say about the current issue.

I switched to Mandrake myself for a while and loved it. Then tried dual-boot with Windows 2000 to get back some Windows programs I wanted to run (I couldn't figure the Gimp out to save my life and missed Photoshop, for one). I never did play with Wine to use my Windows stuff - so much Linux stuff requires more dedication than I want to give after looking at a computer all day at work. Besides, I was in a cult at the time and didn't have time for things like that. Had to move the Word. Then I tried XP and I'm back on Winblows. Though the new Xandros ( http://www.xandros.com ) is very user friendly and comes with Opera and other goodies already installed, so I'll be trying that in VMWare when I feel like exploring. The free version of Xandros is available only in a bittorrent, but it should be a pretty darned fast download. I did try Lycoris a few weeks ago in VMWare but getting it to work with all of my hardware proved to be annoying for someone just looking to dabble. I think a newer version would have served my purposes better but I didn't want to spend the money just to experiment. Anyway, I wouldn't mind hearing how Fedora is working for you. I played a bit with an older Red Hat at work once and liked what I saw but never took it home. A friend at work is using FreeBSD and I like what I see except for the hours upon hours he put in finding drivers and configuring everything. Life's too short...

??? All I ever had was a one-page "syllabus" and handwritten notes. Even that long ago I thought there were a lot of fishy and extremely under-researched things in that class. The only part that strikes me as worthwhile (for those who still see the Bible as the perfect Word of God, that is) would be Proverbs 31. And DocVic privately interpreted the hell out of that one anyway. He just HAD to have an answer to everything; "I don't know" or "We'll have to come back to that one later" just never worked for TWI. Honestly, if I were going to help someone in these areas and their need was beyond common sense and decent stuff available in any Barnes and Noble, I would steer them to a competent secular professional. Did you ever notice that when someone had serious personal problems in a family or sexual category, they were usually pushed out the door (often without their spouse and family) and only welcomed back after someone else helped them put their lives back together? THAT's deliverance, baby. "I think you may have homo tendencies, hit the road and don't come back for deliverance until you've had deliverance, and then you'll still need to kiss foot for a year before we'll consider letting you back... oh, but don't forget to keep those checks coming... God won't deliver you without them." Sorry, got lost. Do yourself a favor and look to credible sources. There are more than enough in these categories. Leave the confusion to people who are happy there.

The Windows XP Service Pack 2 (SP-2) Release Candidate 2 Preview is out now for the brave (you can get it at http://download.microsoft.com/download/C/1...C9FA8/xpSP2.exe ), and here's a brief rundown of my experience so far: The previous RC (couple months back) toasted my machine - it acted exactly like it had the Blaster worm or one of its variants and nothing would stop it from going into a perpetual reboot cycle. I had pretty much the normal office and multimedia software that a moderate computer junkie would have. This is on a Frankenstein AMD Athlon 2400+/512 Megs RAM/Etc./bla/bla/bla machine cobbled together with some things old, new, borrowed and maybe even blue. So... I then did a fresh Windows install and did all the stuff a good boy does (firewall - don't recall if it was ZA or Sygate; antivirus - tried it with Norton; installed SP1 and every single update there was before installing SP2 and finally connecting to the internet) and the same thing still happened. Everyone else it happened to posted on forums around the world, only to have people tell them that they were idiots and had Blaster. I didn't, and I bet a lot of them didn't either. Did a fresh install and did not try SP2 again. With RC2, everything's fine. I've rebooted a few times and tried every program on my computer and it's solid as a rock. So far. Don't know what's changed since the first RC though I saw someone murmer about an lsass.exe bug being fixed and that MAY have been the culprit in my case. I never received an answer from my bug report for RC1 so I may never know. I still wouldn't try it on a machine that I couldn't afford the time and energy to format and reinstall on, but I have no complaints at all. The new Security Center feature isn't recognizing Sygate Pro or PC-Cillin, but that's to be expected, I'm sure. I'd bet it will be at least a few months before all the antivirus and firewall vendors are in sync with this new feature. For those who are nuts enough to try a beta service pack, I would imagine having Windows keep tabs on their antivirus and firewall programs isn't a high priority anyway. I just turn off the alerts and go about my business as usual. For those who are a bit fuzzier about security (almost everyone, in my experience), the built-in Windows firewall has been beefed up somewhat and it looks like it has provisions for blocking outgoing bad traffic as well as incoming. Personally, I would suggest only leaving it on long enough to install a real firewall like ZoneAlarm, Sygate or Tiny and switch. But it is VERY improved. There is no built-in antivirus protection but it will happily bug a newbie about it and walk them through the steps of getting one chosen, installed and updated. Very cool, I think. Looks like it will even walk you through the freebie ones, so they seem to be trying to be fair about educating the user about the wide variety of choices. The extra security features in IE are great (built in popup blocker for those who don't already have Google toolbar or something, and some stricter default settings for Active X that should have been in place from day one), but to be honest this is the first time I've used IE for anything but Windows Update in a couple years anyway and it wouldn't convince me to switch (from Opera). But for those who don't know any better or for God-knows-what reason actually PREFER that monster, I'm sure life will be safer. Hell, I may spend less time "fixing" people's "broken" computers someday... Speaking of "broken" computers, SP2 disables a lot of the security and privacy problems that used to be enabled by default - Unplug and Play, Messenger (NOT MSN Messenger, and I think you guys had this talk already) and the like. In fact, there are several areas where MS seems to be risking the wrath of new users (trying to be nice, here) who expect unsafe processes and Active X controls to be turned on by default. If you want to do something unsafe now, you have to work a little harder at it and know how to do it. I approve. Anyway, for those who don't mind taking the chance of having to do a complete overhaul of their system next weekend, the new Service Pack Beta is available and in my case did NOT trash my machine again. Resource usage and memory usage are the same and I see no difference in network activity or stability in any other area. I'm sure there's someone else out there who can't wait and always tries the new stuff before it's safe to do it... keep in mind that my machine does nothing extremely important and Windows is on its own partition so nothing but Windows itself would die if I screw it up... this means, if you're not a daredevil and are unable/unwilling to rebuild from the ground up, you should wait until someone who knows what they're doing comes over to walk you through it. It looks like the final version is only a couple months away anyway.

For the less technically adept, there's a program from PCMag called Startup Cop to find and kill startup entries, and it's really easy to undo a change if you screw up. They no longer have it but I found a place for it: http://www.pchelp911.com/files/startcop.zip There may be other places if that doesn't work. Google would help... I never bother with MSConfig anymore since it's so easy to use. Mark: I was running XP on a Pentium II 400 mhz for over a year with no problems at all. I had 384 megs of RAM though and I would recommend at least another 128 before you try it on your current machine. If you can't afford to upgrade entirely, this may suit your needs for some time to come. Windows 2000 ran even better and is nearly the same operating system minus a few aesthetic doodads. Almost everyone has a copy of that laying around you could "borrow" if money is an object. My recommendations to everyone when I go to their houses and exorcise their machines to prevent further visits by the exorcist: Install Opera ( http://www.opera.com ) and only use it for everyday surfing. It takes some configuration and patience at the beginning for people stuck in the Internet Explorer cult but after a week or so you'll never know how you lived without it. If you can't stand the ad in the corner and can't afford to pay for it or don't want to, get FireFox (or whatever it's called this week) from http://www.mozilla.org and try it. I find that it's harder to configure and customize and all its cool bells and whistles are copied from Opera, but the price is right. Of course you should be running a firewall these days. The free ZoneAlarm is perfect for most people. The more technically adept may prefer Tiny Personal Firewall ( http://www.download.com is your friend) and I prefer Sygate's firewall though it's a bit harder to get configured than ZoneAlarm. Antivirus is a no-brainer. Norton's great - if you want to save computer resources/money, AVG from http://www.grisoft.com is not bad at all. I use PC-Cillin because it's very, very good and much lighter on resources than Norton or McAfee. It's up to you - they are all fine choices and there are many more. AdAware and SpyBot and run them weekly if you use the internet much. Update them weekly too. Don't use filesharing applications! If you absolutely MUST use them, WinMX is spy-free. Kazaa lite is spy free but anything that connects to the FastTrack (Kazaa) network is - to me - an absolute no-no. Soulseek is spy-free as well. None of these are recommendations - take it as "well, if you're going to have sex anyway, at least use a condom" type of advice. Don't surf porn! If you are going to, I don't kow what to say but keep your antivirus cranked up and run Spybot and AdAware constantly. You WILL get attacked and trojaned and virused eventually if you frequent porn sites. I guess the more "credible" ones like Hustler or whoever would be cleaner but I don't know about that. Don't use online gambling sites! Same as porn in destructiveness and there IS no "credible" option. I won't fix a computer that's been trashed by gambling site trojans. Pay someone else for your stupidity is my answer to that one. Don't install programs from unknown sources. http://www.download.com has almost every reputable freeware or shareware program and they have warnings if a program installs third-party stuff. If a warning exists, you don't need the program. Trust me. Comet Cursor is NOT worth it. E-mail attachments: of COURSE it came from someone you know! You almost never get a virus from someone you don't know! If you must open it, save it to a known location and scan it first. If you're not in a hurry, send them an e-mail: "Did you really send me a cool screensaver?" If you follow those simple rules and perform regular maintenance such as defragging, your machine will last until you see a newer, badder one that you just can't live without.

Up until the week I left I thought that it WAS being fixed and that I could help in the "healing." Just way too slowly for my tastes. Plenty of other people still in or only recently out believed the same thing. We saw what was wrong to one extent or another and saw sloooooow shifts away from much of it. I'm sure after I left there may have been horrified re-thinking of things I had been teaching at fellowships... It takes the realization that it was dirty from the beginning to decide that it's a waste of time. And it takes the realization that NONE of the doctrine was going to be changed - all that's changing is the method of delivery - get the camel in the tent nose-first and verrrry gradually. The public doctrine is what I'm speaking about here - no one I've ever known ever thought for a second that adultery was right and would have been horrified at those abuses had we known. Actually, if you believe the bible to be the word of god, the doctrine is so broken in nearly every respect that this is all that should matter in the end. The most flagrant abuses have ended or will end and the subtle, more dangerous manipulations are all that's left now. Will that ever be fixed? Only when HQ is smoking rubble being sold to Ringling Brothers.

Okay, so what's the point of sharing this letter? Did they give you permission to go spreading it around the internet? I know, no permission is needed but there are certain points of etiquette and ethics to be considered here. The letter shows us nothing we didn't already know about the mindset of an innie. Maybe paraphrasing it would be the way to go. And don't tell me that someone as educated and intelligent as you "accidentally" gave the name away. It looks to me like another case of bad old loose cannon Pat showing off and shooting us all in the foot. Do you want to know what's going on in an innie's mind? I'm freshly out and can tell you all you want to know, as are others who were in until recently. The Peeler lawsuit? To me now it's damning, to me a year ago it would have been the Adversary attacking - and especially attacking one of the foundations of "our" belief system, the tithe. I hope they win but there is nothing going on there that would have changed my mind a year or two ago. I think a lot of people have been out for so long that they don't remember what the mindset of an innie is and how to approach one. Basically calling them poor deluded idiots on an internet forum in response to a sincere (private) letter only serves to prove what they already think: we are a bunch of copped out spirit-possessed or -influenced crybabies. Maybe I should just say "Yeah, what Grizzy said," but it's crap like this that helped convince me for years that I was in the right place and what TWI had to say about the antis was right on. There was no real logical discussion or debate here, just an attack - why? Because someone only knew what information they were fed? Hell, we all have that problem in some area of our lives. Turn on your TV. Ignorance is not a crime, and attacking the ignorance doesn't serve any purpose. Unless your purpose is to feel superior to someone else. I would love to see TWI die a horrible, agonizing death. I don't see how anything but logic and reason will help that cause. Any little sign of weakness in the opposing camp's argument is all it takes to write off their whole case. Remember? I do. Guess I should write something called "The mindset of a Way Believer" to help us get on the same page... stay tuned.

In this area: Yes, off the record of course but when a question was asked, it was answered. I recall the RC once admitting to a mistake (not even a drastic one - an error more of action than heart) at a Limb function, in fact. I think most "leaders" are well-meaning - problem is, they did and do believe the filth coming from HQ. When the local RC knew he'd made a mistake he would admit it to whoever was affected as soon as he could. Kinda hard to admit you've done wrong when you don't know it though, and I can't hold that against an innie any more than I can blame myself for the stupid decisions I made when I believed it. I just hope they'll wake up soon and make their lives of some honest value. Oh, at the Root level, you mean? HAHAHAHAHAHA *choke* *sputter* *koff* ...sorry, just sprayed soda all over eveything. I think I got some on you - here's a napkin...

Wow, I could replace all that worthless .... I buried in a dumpster last fall? And give those desperate clowns some more of my hard-earned money? What a privilege! I smell desperation and backpedaling in the air...

I miss the twelve years I wasted on it. A drug habit woulda been cheaper and less destructive. I almost mentioned some people I miss but they won't have anything to do with me now so screw 'em. Or maybe it's just karma getting me back for the people I did it to over the years.

I saw too many people making outrageous claims that were so obviously false or exaggerated that I didn't believe any of it. Mainstream media relies so much on sensationalism that showing the truth about psychological manipulation and control is just too dull. Can't keep people's eyes glued to the ads that way; we have to have stories of paramilitary training or something. Pictures of sad little frightened sheep with fake smiles singing the same &*^% songs every night just won't sell. Stories of sexual abuse are of course sensational enough - but until there's proof, why would a mainstream news source risk legal action (and its credibility) to address them? I believe many of them now, but if all I had to go on was the word of "disgruntled ex-followers," my BS meter would have been through the roof. Keep in mind that I believed we were in a spiritual battle and the Adversary would make up anything he could to sow seeds of doubt. Religious groups were... religious groups. They had their panties in such a wad over the trinity that they had nothing else of substance to offer - and unless you've been a victim of the manipulation (brainwashing, if you prefer - and I do), you wouldn't understand the real danger anyway. They were just upset because we had a different flavor of caca to sell so they were easy to ignore or ridicule. I never paid much attention to the internet because honestly, it's a horrible source of information. 90% of what you see is made up or exaggerated and the other 10% is too subjective to take seriously. This is the internet on the whole, not anti-Way sites. I never paid attention to Waydale at all and only peeked at Greasespot when all my questions and concerns were answered with "Sounds like you've been listening to those people on the internet. You need to read 'Christians Should be Prosperous' and take the Class again." After a few dozen times of hearing that, I started thinking that if other people were coming to the same conclusions I was, there must be something to it. In short, I don't know how much good the truth does anyone unless they've already been moving along those lines independently. When you believe you're in a spiritual battle and even hardcore proof is suspect because you can't trust your five senses and native intelligence, all you can really rely on is the cult making such huge mistakes that you can't help but step back and ask questions. The good news is, TWI has been run by f'ups for years and they're only getting worse as time goes on. Incompetence could be their downfall in the end...

Paraphrased, since all the tapes and literature are at the bottom of a landfill somewhere, as they should be: "Some people would be better off if they never saw a Bible and just lived by common sense." The one time he spoke reasonably and I wasn't listening.

I don't have an exact quote, but does anyone remember the tape of Loy's Y2K paranoid rantings, when he and other "leaders" (most of whom are long gone now) were discussing how to prepare for the impending disaster? Among many other now-hilarious fantasies and delusions, he mentioned that he never trusted microwaves and thought they could leak and cause who-knows-what kind of horrors. As he mused about believers possibly buying radiation detectors to keep tabs on these terrible things (not everyone, of course, maybe one for each fellowship to pass around...), everyone around him just muttered agreement. They (and many of us on the field) were awestuck at how the MOGFODAT clearly saw right through all the B.S. that clouded everyone else's minds and recognized the danger in our midst. Okay, this isn't so much a dumb LCM saying as an example of the rest of the Koolaid drinkers giving themselves whiplash nodding enthusiastic agreement to every nonsensical noise he blurted out. And I stuck around four more years...

Sorry, Raf I've been out since Fall or so and have lurked and dropped into the chat room now and then so I forgot I'm "new." Just finally figured it was time to register and drop $.02 here and there...

Refiner: TWIt never predicted the "end times." They go along with the "no one knows when it will happen" majority on that one. When they do have a failed prediction (like the Y2K disaster one), they can squirm out of it by saying that their "believing action" (the hoarding and what-have-you before Y2K, for instance) prevented the disaster. This is justified by saying "revelation given once might change," as when Nineva wasn't destroyed in Jonah's time because of their change of heart. The JWs could take a lesson from TWI's masterful waffling and backpedaling techniques. They are clumsy but effective. TWI has NEVER been wrong about ANYTHING. Any apparent contradictions are therefore problems with your perception, understanding and believing. (edited to fix crappy grammar)