WordWolf

I directly challenge these assertions. I shall explain how I see it, and why. I see one majority rough category, and 2 minority rough categories. Category 1 (Majority)- "There was some good in twi. However, the evil actions and doctrines of pfal significantly taint it. Doctrine is suspect, since some of it was phrased or formulated as a result of corrupt thinking or to facilitate sin. Some people in twi, ignorant of the corruption from the top, endeavoured to be loving Christians, so some others had fantastic experiences as a result of THEIR INVOLVEMENT." Category 2 (Minority)- "vpw was well-intentioned from the beginning to the end. I had good experiences in twi, vpw founded twi, therefore, I credit vpw for my good experiences. I wish the others here wouldnt keep suggesting vpw sinned a lot." Category 3 (Minority)- "vpw was a fraud from the beginning. twi was a fraud from the beginning. Christianity is an opinion, and can be nice and all-but in hands like vpw, it becomes a corrupt system which should have been torn down." The original poster claimed that a number of posters here dismiss any good from twi. According to the anonymous poll, 12.5% of respondents have done so- claiming he was a fraud from the beginning, therefore pfal and the rest was window dressing for a scam. According to the anonymous poll, 80% of respondents have claimed that vpw's sin had a significant effect on his doctrine, policies, and practices. (This further divides into 25% saying this was significant but not overwhelming, and 55% claiming it was across-the-board and categorical.) If this is a representative response, 4 out of every 5 posters is saying this. A third category of responses can be shown from the remaining 7.5% of respondents. They claim that sin had no effect on doctrine, policies and practices, either because vpw sinned a little and it didn't touch them (5%) or because they're a sold-out vpw worshipper (2.5%). The 80% are not people who have claimed that bad experience completely negates any positive experience they or others may have had. That's either the 12.5% category mentioned above, or a category almost identical to the description someone gave- of "no good can be associated with twi" as a result of the bad. That's the position "vp sinned and therefore he did no good." Some people have CLAIMED that a number of posters have been holding that position. However, that position has been selected by 0.0% of respondents. That's right- even anonymously, nobody claimed that's anything like their position. So, I consider this position a convenient FICTION that allows vpw apologists and defenders to label and belittle those who have come to different conclusions based on the evidence at hand. =========== On a slightly different subject, is DOES often get heated here. Why? My opinion-take it for what you will- is that it is a combination of the specific setting, and the vpw apologists. As for the setting, people arrive here-often internet "virgins" who've never seen another board- with crippled interpersonal skills and reasoning skills after exposure to twi. They learn many ugly things. They're hurt from their own wounds which are healing-so they react. They're offended by what they've read-so they react. Both of these can look ugly-but they're part of the healing process. That produces heated posts. As for the other, take the people I just described, emotionally hurt, recovering, getting professional help elsewhere and using this as an encounter group and a sounding board. Then add people who claim that the complaints are exagerrated. NOW we're going to see some heated discussion. In short, the regular cycle of vpw apologetics and defenders- who sometimes call others LIARS and attack anyone who insults their memory of vpw- THIS is to blame for the worst threads. We can't put an end to the therapy encounters, because they're part of why the GSC EXISTS. People come here to learn, heal and hang out. We CAN consider ending the continuous adulation of vpw without defeating the purpose of the GSC. It wont happen anyway because the powers-that-be insist on allowing all viewpoints to be posted here, and because the apologists (a tiny handful of regular posters) won't stop even out of courtesy. That's my opinion, and why I hold it. You are free to disagree.

Update. ckmkeon gave this reply: "Well I will get some more scripture for you but I have one for you. Gal 1:11,12 "This is Paul Speaking" 11. But I certify you, brethren, that the Gospel which was preached of me is not of man 12. For I neither recieved it of man, neither was I taught it, but by revelation of Jesus Christ. Though some of you might not think it is much, but I think the gospel of the word being by revelation is a advancement. Now I will continue getting more scripture for you to prove my point. CK" As reported previously, the subject under discussion: Quick brushup: ckmkeon: "peolpe can not go any further than what they have been taught." T-Bone: "What if a STUDENT winds up being smarter than the TEACHER or discovers errors in the teacher's doctrine? How would discoveries be made or technology improved or even invented- if people can't go beyond what they're taught?" ckmkeon's response: "So what" Well, T-Bone's been intellectually thrashed on the debating floor, has he not? The whole of civilization and its advancements? "So what?" They don't matter. ck continued to "address" this issue of students surpassing teachers. "So what, and what happens if the teacher is smarter than the student and the student thinks he/she is smarter...there are more instances where the student THINKS they are smarter and they are really not. Then they close off all teaching from there teacher." This is called "dodging" and "changing the subject." Since ckmkeon didn't have an intelligent response surpassing "so what?", he pretended there WAS no unaddressed issue of students surpassing their teachers as a cornerstone of society and changed the subject, intending to turn it into a "subtle dig" on the posters here. They surpassed the man who claimed to be THE Teacher. How dare they think for themselves and challenge the suppositions of a man who was born with an overabundance of brains and brawn, who made the earth shake when he walked? However, he did make an attempt to make a partial answer. To "How would discoveries be made or technology improved or even invented?" ck replied "By revelation by either God or the Devil." So, we owe computers, the internet, electricity, toilet paper, etc, to either God, the Devil, or both- NEVER to the ingenuity of an inventor thinking differently from everyone and making something that lasted as a result-NOT ONCE. T-Bone has asked him to support this claim. Will ck support his bald assertion? My prediction is we'll see more of the above, or a variation of what we've seen before- 1) changes of subject 2) ducking the question entirely 3) belittling the question 4) insulting the questioner and that's about it. ===== As predicted, we saw 1) changes of subject. The question on the table: If-as ckmkeon asserts- people are incapable of going beyond what they are taught-which he believes solely because vpw taught it- how have we ever arrived at ANY invention in ANY time? Or, to be specific, "How would discoveries be made or technology improved or even invented?" ck replied "By revelation either God or the Devil" When asked to support his claim, therefore, that all discoveries in science, and all inventions and innovations in technology are the direct result of either GOD or the DEVIL, ckmkeon posted Galatians 1:11-12, which is one place Paul says he preached by revelation of Jesus Christ. ckmkeon's explanation of the relevance of this verse? "I think the gospel of the word being by revelation is a advancement. Now I will continue getting more scripture for you to prove my point." Thus the subject change I predicted. ck seems unable to see a fundamental difference between receiving a book of the Bible by revelation and transforming the hundreds of steps it took to invent the electric lightbulb into a process where God or the Devil just drops the completed schematic in your lap. I think the one thing we've proven is that CK can't go beyond what he's been taught, but the rest of us need not hobble our intellects so completely.

Coolchef, on the genuine-ness of vpw's nice guy image.... "veepee should be awarded an oscar for acting like a nice guy"

"How many husbands have you had?" "Mine or other women's?" "Yours." "Five." "Five?" "Yes, just the five. Husbands should be like Kleenex: soft, strong and disposable." "You lure men to their deaths like a spider with flies." "Flies are where men are most vulnerable." "And are you the host?" "Me, sir? No. I'm just the humble butler." "And what exactly is it you do here?" "I buttle, sir."

General tip: You can usually start with the harder quote and get easier... New song... "James Brown, James Brown. James Brown, James Brown."

Sure. Martin Luther bucked the establishment, started his own organization, had respect, and was German. vpw tried not to make a big deal out of it out loud, but in private, he was VERY proud of being German. So, he attempted to get others to see him as they saw Luther. Thus, the cheap stunt mentioned above.

God Almight, Jonny, we're DISAGREEING. We're not making comments about your mother or wife. We're not calling for ritual castration or anything, not even for vpw. In my case, I provided direct quotes. How did this become a personal attack on you, or was the direct quote the blowing out of proportion thing?

Let's review the order of events. If Jonny is correct, vpw was ok, then was exposed to the Sexual Revolution, THEN he started boinking the women and drugging them. *checks his timeline* 1953, his "will to help" results in him completely lifting Leonard's class and claiming it for his own, lying to Leonard AND the students in the process, all so he can stamp his name on it. Doesn't sound like exclusively "a will to help" yet... 1953, his "will to help" resulted in him completely lifting Stiles' book and claiming it for his own, all so he can stamp his name on it. Doesn't sound exclusively "a will to help" yet... 1967, he reads about the Haight-Ashbury Christians at the House of Acts. He makes a beeline for them, and his descriptions for them emphasize their lack of hangups. An odd turn of phrase, but technically neither a smoking gun nor a confession. What IS a smoking gun was a comment he made to J!m D**p after drinking, ("en vino, veritas"). He pressed J1m for details about what it's like to be in an orgy. I'm sure J|m would have forgotten all about that, except for the comments vpw himself made about that right after pressing J1m for details, and still on the subject of orgies. "You know that's all available. God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.' If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage, God would have said 'best' instead of 'good.'" So, he already had this attitude when he arrived in California. Therefore, he didn't arrive at the kids, innocently find a bunch of horny kids screwing everything in sight, and eventually have some sort of "lapse of morals" and "fall into sin." He went there with the specific attitude that sexual sin was acceptable, and found the audience most likely to be receptive to it, and he sold them on pfal. So, then, I ask you, WHY did he seek out the audience most likely to be receptive to a "sexual sin is acceptable" audience, and sell THEM, SPECIFICALLY, on pfal? Why THEM when he could have sought out ANOTHER group of kids just as easily? And why wait until he heard of THEM before trying to expand to a group of outsiders? There had been universities all over the country the entire time he was trying to expand his operations. He focuse on the sexually-permissive- or those he perceived to be sexually- permissive. We know it was not to "cure" them because he did NOT have classes on that at any time- not even the CFS was designed for that. The CFS' most ardent supporters said that the CFS was designed to make people less self-conscious about the subject of sex (thus the list of "dirty words".)

Well, it's not Jefferson Airplane, Jefferson Starship, or Jefferson anything. That means it's only "STARSHIP" and their song "We Built This City". You didn't need such a big quote to start, BTW, some of us could have gotten it off of any 2 lines in sequence... Trivia note: a lot of radio stations altered the traffic report in the song to insert their name in front of "your favourite radio station..."

"How many husbands have you had?" "Mine or other women's?" "Yours." "Five." "Five?" "Yes, just the five. Husbands should be like Kleenex: soft, strong and disposable." "You lure men to their deaths like a spider with flies." "Flies are where men are most vulnerable."

Probably. Well, the SP1 firewall was a toy that lowered the access a hacker could have when raping your system. Its primary usefulness was in switching it on while you downloaded a REAL firewall. It was such a toy that I kept it on while a real firewall was on, and it never caused a problem. The SP2 firewall is better than the SP1 firewall. However, remember that it was a security program developed by Microsoft, and that is effectively an oxymoron. So, I'd keep it on until you finish installing ZoneAlarm. THEN switch it off. For the first 24 hours of use, you'll probably get a little frustrated, because ZA will ask you for permission for a bunch of programs that want to access the internet. If you know exactly WHICH program this is, and trust it (like your internet provider program), you can select to grant it permission and check "remember this answer". If you don't know what it is, you can select to refuse permission, but do NOT check "remember this answer", so that if you exclude something important, like your internet service program, you can allow it next time. After the first day or so of establishing what's allowed, you will almost never hear from it. You'll hear from it again when you've updated a program, to give it permission again (for programs that underwent a substantial change, like versions.) You'll also hear from it when a program that intruded tries to "dial out". That's the protection SP2 will NEVER give you. Anything ON your machine will always be able to dial out under SP2's "firewall".

THe "real-time monitors" on both are not meant to be FIREWALLS. They're similar to firewalls, but not identical. (Otherwise SpywareBlaster would be considered a firewall as well.) A number of free firewalls are no longer available as FREE firewalls. The only one I'm aware of is ZoneAlarm, which still works just FINE for me. http://www.zonelabs.com/ The free version is still listed, and still updated. The only drawback is if you plan on switching software firewalls later, ZA is tricky to download as it involves some extra step. However, I've been using it for years and have no plan to stop. It's also VERY user-friendly and has its own Tutorial. Can't beat the "price", either!

I was also sure it was "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb." Meanwhile, yours is THE PRINCESS BRIDE. Fezzik's way was to bash the guy with a rock, supposedly.

Sorry, I need to express exception to "If you were hurt, if you were ill, if you stumbled in any way, then you were either possessed or an unbelieving believer." By this I mean, I'm going to discuss the EXCEPTIONS. If you had JUICE, you were an EXCEPTION and were fine. vpw HIMSELF was an exception. His addictions to sex, alcohol, and tobacco are still forgiveable to this day-but DISCUSSING them is vile. Not to mention his ILLNESS and DEATH from them, which was ANATHEMA for us, but forbidden to even discuss in detail for him. lcm's FELONIES were buried, and when questions were eventually raised, the questioners were attacked for "thinking evil". lcm was an exception-once he ascended the throne. Another man who was an exception was a known pedophile who was moved around rather than kicked out and thrown to the police, and his FELONIES were covered up, even to the point of committing the felonies of "Breaking and Entering" in an attempt to remove evidence that was to be given to the police. That's called "aiding and abetting in the commission of a felony", and-guess what? THAT's a felony TOO. Of course, the staff can't be criticized for slander and defamation of character and libel-from when they went on record destroying the reputation of Christians who got fed up and left, or looked like they were going to go to the police. After all, they were "only following orders", and "God will cover." Not entirely dissimilar to Kurt Waldheim and Dr Mengele's defenses, I hear...

YES. They say that God was effectively powerless for 2000 years between the original Apostles and 1942, remember. If that's true, they have a god that's not particularly clever, nor particularly powerful.

I try not to challenge anyone to come up with even stupider quotes from vpw and lcm. Eventually, you KNOW they WILL. I thought a plateau was reached before we could thank the Devil for polio vaccines. Frankly, I don't know if it's a Luddite thing, or if it was lifted from Chrono Trigger or something. ("All of our history..our art and science..all to meet the needs of that...beast."

That's how I called it. That's why the other 6 had a cold, clinical, technical coverage in the Advanced class. You can discuss fiction in that fashion, or things you don't really understand. (I've been in discussions like that of the Harry Potter series, and the Wheel of Time series.) The actual, PRACTICAL coverage of such stuff was NOT covered, and this indicates a lack of familiarity with the PRACTICE of stuff. By contrast, I ran thru "discerning of spirits" with another Christian once. I didn't name it, but my instructions took 1-2 minutes, TOPS. At the end, they were able to use it correctly, the first time. vpw did not have a lot of printed material on the practical aspects to rip off of, so he was forced to choose between no answer and making it up. That's how we ended up with the "definition" of "phenomenon", which amounted to "whatever isn't accounted for in our definitions." Heck, I had a better working definition for that thing while IN the Advanced class, and the knee-jerk reaction one person had for it was "no, we can't add to the Advanced class definitions." (My working definition was something like "whatever is NOT guaranteed".)

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/oldlady.htm

Quick brushup: ckmkeon: "peolpe can not go any further than what they have been taught." A statement. (A statement of vpw's to be specific, which the speaker has not seen the flaws in, unlike many of the GSC posters.) T-Bone is one such poster. Pointing out ONE flaw in mindlessly absorbing such statements without evaluating them, T-Bone said "What if a STUDENT winds up being smarter than the TEACHER or discovers errors in the teacher's doctrine?" (That BOTH happen is a matter of historical record. My high school has a mural right at the entrance. You can see it for maybe 5 minutes as you approach the main entrance. There's a saying directly below it, in big, bold letters. "EVERY ADVANCEMENT IN CIVILIZATION HAS BEEN BROUGHT ABOUT BY A NEW AUDACITY IN IMAGINATION." It's public knowledge that civilization DEPENDS on students surpassing teachers or discovering errors in their doctrine.) T-Bone added "How would discoveries be made or technology improved or even invented- if people can't go beyond what they're taught?" That people DO beyond what they're taught-and often-is common knowledge. That IS how all of these are accomplished. T-Bone's commentary on the above? "Who came up with that slogan anyway? Well....I bet it was from someone who NEVER HAD AN ORIGINAL THOUGHT...In my opinion-the type of person who would believe that slogan is someone that DOESN'T THINK FOR THEMSELVES." So, how did ckmkeon address "What if the student winds up being smarter than the teacher or discovers errors in the teacher's doctrine? How would discoveries be made or technology improved or even invented- if people can't go beyond what they're taught?" ckmkeon's response: "So what" Well, T-Bone's been intellectually thrashed on the debating floor, has he not? The whole of civilization and its advancements? "So what?" They don't matter. Mind you, they don't matter to a person using a computer-which was developed in thousands of steps of design, improvement and manufacture- and it was posted on the internet-which was developed in hundreds of steps off of ARPANET, which itself was developed in hundreds of steps. And both were powered by electricity, using principles invented by Nikola Tesla, who wound up being smarter than his teachers, and invented a process which is STILL the standard for electricity in the US and worldwide? Nikola Tesla went beyond what he was taught. However, to ckmkeon, the internet, computers and electricity, without which he'd starve in the dark, bored to death, they're irrelevant. "So what?" ck continued to "address" this issue of students surpassing teachers. "So what, and what happens if the teacher is smarter than the student and the student thinks he/she is smarter...there are more instances where the student THINKS they are smarter and they are really not. Then they close off all teaching from there teacher." This is called "dodging" and "changing the subject." Since ckmkeon didn't have an intelligent response surpassing "so what?", he pretended there WAS no unaddressed issue of students surpassing their teachers as a cornerstone of society and changed the subject, intending to turn it into a "subtle dig" on the posters here. They surpassed the man who claimed to be THE Teacher. How dare they think for themselves and challenge the suppositions of a man who was born with an overabundance of brains and brawn, who made the earth shake when he walked? However, he did make an attempt to make a partial answer. To "How would discoveries be made or technology improved or even invented?" ck replied "By revelation by either God or the Devil." So, we owe computers, the internet, electricity, toilet paper, etc, to either God, the Devil, or both- NEVER to the ingenuity of an inventor thinking differently from everyone and making something that lasted as a result-NOT ONCE. T-Bone has asked him to support this claim. Will ck support his bald assertion? My prediction is we'll see more of the above, or a variation of what we've seen before- 1) changes of subject 2) ducking the question entirely 3) belittling the question 4) insulting the questioner and that's about it. Might ck actually attempt to support his statement in some way? It's possible, but I just don't consider it LIKELY. Whenever he does-like this "God & Devil made all technology" thing- he raises a bigger question than the one he answered ("How did humans ever invent ANYTHING if vpw's ridiculous claim is true?") It's straight out of the "there was an old woman that swallowed a fly" school of answering questions. (Each answer was worse than the previous question.) ===

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-who1.htm http://www.listeninglib.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000512

As usual, he ripped these off as well. That painting was a ripoff of the cover of a book on dog-training. It was either "Hunt Close" or another book's front cover design that was completely copied, down to the pose. *checks* Yup, it was "Hunt Close." From the "Hunt Close!" thread... Hope R: "Gawd- do you remember that painting called 'The Trainer'? It looks just like the cover of that book, except it's VP and one of his dogs! Another TWI rip-off of someone else's original idea!" And the caption of the painting was "Training with love breeds loving obedience." Now then, as for his "I'm just like Martin Luther" kick, he staged a pitiful ripoff of Luther. Luther officially announced an attempt to open dialogue and discussion on 95 topics when he nailed his 95 theses to the door of Wittenburg Cathedral. Each addressed something very specific, and all were sensible. vpw announced-at the end of ROA '77- that he was going to do much the same thing. He claimed he was going to catalog (with full verses) all the anti-Trinitarian type verses of Scripture, and nail them to all the doors of the local churches. What DID happen? They ran around in a "Way coach", and posted a notice on a bunch of church doors. What did the notice say? Was it the list of Scriptures? Was it an appeal to logic, like Luther did? NO. It was a big sign: "Jesus Christ is not God-never was and never will be" and he placed an autographed copy of JCING at the foot of the church door. As I said, more of a bad photocopy lacking toner. BTW, I recommend the "Hunt Close!" thread. It's got some FASCINATING stuff.

A lot of people never heard of this book, or forgot about this book. Here's a reminder.

Correct, as you knew! And Kevin Bacon was also in... no, wait, nevermind. Your turn again.

It's good to cover all the bases. This gives everyone a chance to vote their conscience.

No, you also said that MANY people here have a specific position that- so far-nobody's come up and claimed as their own. Goey called you on it, and asked where these "MANY" people are. With no documentation, the evidence supports the idea that you just pulled this claim out of your burro. It's called "supporting your claims so it doesn't look like you made them up out of whole cloth." You failed to do it. Goey called you on it. Your reply-rather than support your claim OR admit you may have exaggerated a tad-was this post's dandy ad hominem attack. "F* you!" is NOT a logical defense of one's position. It DOES, however, suggest there IS no logical defense for it.