WordWolf

vpw never said anything about "SWITCHING" from the Bible to pfal. pfal was supposed to be a key to the Bible-Genesis to Revelation. (pfal says so.) vpw said people should put more time in pfal. The claim was it was the BEST key to the Bible. In pfal, students are challenged to put all other reading materials aside other than the Bible for 3 months. There was never a challenge to put aside the Bible for 3 months. There was no "switch" instruction. Mike added this to the word of vpw. When you add to the word of vpw, you no longer have the word of vpw. I'll get back to them soon enough. INCORRECT. Raf's method was to use pfal's standard for Scripture to see if pfal was Scripture. If pfal was supposed to be Scripture, it would pass its OWN tests. If vpw meant it to be Scripture, he would have rephrased the standard until pfal could pass it. Instead, he said if one word was wrong, an entire Bible "would fall to pieces". Using the pfal METHODS to examine pfal shows that pfal fails to qualify as Scripture. Since pfal was never meant to pass for Scripture, this is not a problem even for vpw apologists. Mike's never tried using the approach mandated IN pfal, because the inescapable conclusions would be distasteful. Raf's faced the possibility of a distasteful conclusion head-on. Mike's ducked and covered. Mike, most people see this post as blatantly self-contradictory. See, either you "lay out your message", or you don't. This game with the "can you name the elements in" IS a lure into some bizarre Mikean game. Rather than post after post saying "no one can answer the riddle I devised", (which is more a matter of "WE REFUSE TO PLAY") you could far more quickly just name the 5 Mikean elements. Now, if you STILL can't see that, it's not my fault. I can't make that any simpler.

In lieu of another clue, I'm posting from another movie. "Is this how you want to be remembered?" "I don't want to be remembered at all. That means I'm dead."

6 days having passed, I'm running a new song. "I believe in rags to riches- Your inheritance won't last. So take your Gray Poupon my friend And shove it up your @$$!"

You're quoting the writer of "the Gay Science", the man famous for saying "God is dead"? Fine. I'll quote Robert Burns. "Nietzsche is a bore."

Let's see, finishing out the Ferengi Rules: Rule 239. "Never be afraid to mislabel a product." Rule 242. "More is good. All is better." Rule 261. "A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience." Rule 263. "Never let doubt interfere with your lust for latinum." Rule 266. "When in doubt, lie." Rule 284. "Deep down, everyone's a Ferengi." Rule 285. "No good deed ever goes unpunished." The following have never been officially added to the Rules of Acquisition, but still came from Ferengi. "After you've exploited someone, it never hurts to thank them. That way, it's easier to exploit them next time." "When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits... kill the messenger."

I've admired the directness of the Klingons (Next Generation and DS9 Klingons) for years. Technically, they don't have a word for "hello." They have "nuqneH", which means "what do you want?" Now THAT's directness! :) I don't have the idea yet for that thread. One of these days I will.

Hardly. Nobody'd call me a "Wierwillite", and I recognize truth in his teachings. Some of the stuff he taught, in my opinion, was pretty good. The problem starts when everything ELSE comes into play.

*reads down* "Shocker" is not the word for it. It's been documented that-TO YOUR FACE- rfr can seem very nice. More likely, this person has seen what's said to their face and frolicked off happily, and didn't poke behind the curtains. (Me, I poked behind the curtains, and I didn't see EVERYTHING either.) As for letters, they're easy to handle. There's SO many ways that one can "spin-control" when the only feedback allowed is letters, and it's easy to pretend you're actually doing something. As to the "improvements", frankly, they sound like canned responses, as in "you keep hearing the same answers, so eventually you repeat the same answers, whether or not they're actually true." That one got pulled by the people skeptical enough to LEAVE, so it's EASY to pull that one with people who just accept whatever hq says. Lacking access to A) the original letter B) the original response C) the direct action taken, I'm more than a little skeptical. rfr gets ONE letter, and suddenly the Sunday format changes? Forgive me, but I get skeptical about such claims even when I TRUST the person of whom it's said. Ok,we've had lots of reports "from the front" during that timeframe. This person's account is the opposite of not only the eyewitness accounts of the time, but also of the quotes from the magazine and tapes of the time-and THOSE are the easiest things to manipulate. hq did not change, especially "immediately". Frankly, if you want to credit ANYTHING with radical change at hq, I'D CREDIT THE GSC. No, seriously. It's actually old news that twi, out of good ideas, actually mines the GSC complaints for new ideas, and quietly makes changes they heard here first when they feel like it. That's why people on staff now actually get some kind of living wage and retirement plan, whereas-even under rfr-they previously were expected to just accept whatever hq designated for them. Ever heard of when rfr threatened to remove cooking privileges from the staff when one person did something stupid? We've got it in the documents section.... Nor are they what I'd consider "reliable" accounts, forgive me for saying so.

Well, since she's just one corrupt person utilizing a corrupt framework, and her exit will NOT result in an overhaul, but rather another excuse to hide the past again, we'll probably be talking about the same subjects we talk about now, plus whatever new errors are added. With no specific reasons given, I'm fairly confident ONE of theold reasons was in place. Could have been the famous 250-mile attendance. Could be one state was sending a bunch of people there. Could be more than one state was sending a bunch of people. Previously, when rfr herself was approached about doctrinal AND practical error at hq, she responded with "come visit us at hq and look around", and ignored the obvious followup on how that completely failed to answer the questions. I expect that's business as usual. Got any kind of problem? Come visit this place! You should forget it once you see things as we orchestrate them here! I'm skeptical about large numbers of active corps. Last time we heard, they were HIDING the numbers of corps grads since they had FIVE graduating. So, I expect they were manipulating perception again. Large numbers of people suddenly entering the corps would have been MAJOR NEWS, and they would have milked it for all it was worth. I'd like to also remind you that- despite many claims to the contrary by twi, rfr and company- God's Word is NOT the exclusive property of twi, and many local churches OUTPERFORM twi right now.

Continuing posting of the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition... ========== Rule 162. "Even in the worst of times, someone turns a profit." Rule 177. "Know your enemies...but do business with them always." Rule 181. "Not even dishonesty can tarnish the shine of profit." Rule 189. "Let others keep their reputation. You keep their latinum." Rule 190. "Hear all, trust nothing." Rule 202. "The justification for profit is profit." Rule 208. "Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than the question is the answer." Rule 211. "Employees are the rungs on the ladder of success. Don't hesitate to step on them." Rule 217. "You can't free a fish from water."

I believe it was trained OUT of him gradually over the course of the 70s. Reading his OWN account of the 70s ("vp and me in wonderland" thread) has convinced me of that. I'd like to point out that the "swear loyalty to me or you're fired" thing was FIRST done by vpw, to the corps, in front of lcm. lcm never went beyond what he was taught.

Loyalty and respect for one's parents is a good thing. Heck, it points to the first "commandment with promise." Before concluding they were inerrant as to behaviour of vpw and lcm when your parents weren't around, you might want to see what vpw and lcm said of THEMSELVES when your parents weren't around. That's on the "Wonderland" threads, and you can read them for yourself and form your own opinion.

If by "his ministry", you mean "his deliberate decisions to rape, molest, and drug my sisters in Christ, and use the office of leader to funnel money and adulation to himself and feed his lusts for sex, alcohol, tobacco and whatever else I don't know about", then I accept your apology. And no, I don't think "his ministry" is your fault. I would be mindful, however, that the blessings you received were at the expense of the curses received by your sisters in Christ. Me, I would consider that WORTH getting bummed over. As to it being "anyone else's fault", it is the fault of the people who willingly and intentionally participated in and facilitated his evil deeds. If someone innocently passed along a message "vpw asked you to come to his office after service", that's one thing. On the other hand, some people monitored the women exiting his "shaque du amour" and made sure they were not going to file criminal charges. Those people knew in advance what vpw was going to try to do, did nothing to stop it or warn the women, and put forth their best effort to cover his tracks instead. Now, them, that's THEIR fault as well as his own. So, I disagree on the last part.

That's interesting. To hear every single poster tell it, THEY are a supporter of truth, too. And their position is the most sensible, logical position to hold. And they all contradict each other. We have supporters of truth who think all religion is a delusion, who hold that Christianity is false, that all ex-twi Christians hold the sole truth, that truth is different for each person, yet still true, and other positions too esoteric to name easily. When OJ claimed he was "100% unequivocally not guilty", the judge didn't dismiss the case. "Well, he says he's not guilty-that's good enough for me." Proclaiming your position to be the true one is no guarantee to anyone that it is-including yourself. My guess is that tl knew that as well as I did and left it alone. You're an adult-surely you can see this point! BTW, I've been treated to one poster spending pages saying they didn't have time to spend answering questions before. This isn't going to be another one of those things, is it? It's beneath you, so I'm hoping you won't do such a thing...

Here's the thread with some stuff on vpw, and lcm, and donna.

"You read about his childhood and the way he was." If you're interested, vpw had twi write up a partial vpw biography, partial twi advertisement called "The Way: Living in Love." We examined that book in excruciating detail in the thread "The Way: Living in Wonderland." You're welcome to read it. The later pages host my attempts to come up with a one-stop biography on vpw, based almost entirely on what was public record- using twi books or US Meteorological reports and other verifiable data as sources. You can follow the process from the rest of the thread as it's begun, and as data is added. (It leaves out the rapes because they're not listed in twi records nor publicly-available documents. I believe that most or all of the accounts are TRUE-but I felt the verifiable cold facts were sufficient to make the case without adding in anything else.) I'm still refining the biography, so expect it will still improve a bit. I need to add material from Mrs W's book, and to fix my verb tenses so they all agree. If you'd like to know what vpw was like when no one was looking, there's ANOTHER thread. "vp and me in wonderland." It's an analysis of lcm's book where he explains how fantastic vpw was-and accidentally exposes how horrible vpw was. It's got a link to a manuscript of the original book's material. That thread explains why lcm BECAME the lcm we all knew, and shows vpw's view of others as disposable. Finally, it's got some stuff on Donna as well.

Edition 5.6 of my timeline. I added the Moody reference, and a detail about the vpw/bgl class. ==== This timeline is mostly from publications OF TWI. ========= Let's see. victor paul wierwille was born to a large family of German descent. (Born December 31, 1916.) According to locals, Ernst, his father, was an alcoholic with negligible education, with a bad temper who acted as a bully.This was true in his dealings with locals AND with his own family.Each child had their own chores. Little Victor chose to neglect his chores, and would vanish for hours into the woods nearby. (It has been noted that this running off may have been as much to avoid an abusive father as it was to avoid doing any work. Or it may be unrelated.) He claimed that when he was young, he once told a minister that he wanted to be a man of God like him. Other than this statement, Little Victor showed no actual involvement in the church, no actual effort or work in the things of the church. So, this seems to suggest an interest-not in being a man of God- but in being the man the whole community turned out to see, to have their respect. As a teenager, young Vic continued to lack any qualities of a man of God. In fact, he went out of his way to earn a reputation going in the opposite direction. He was a bully, a showoff and a braggart. (He seems to have been taught this at home.)He did all sorts of things for attention. He was quick to start a fight or mouth off at others. He had a quick wit. One of his common ways of showing off was to tear up and down the streets of New Knoxville on his motorcycle, trying to get attention. His demonstrated talents seemed to be limited to his quick wit and his ability to play a guitar, which he showed competency in. Old Man Wierwille was preparing to pass on thefamily farm to young Vic, as was the family tradition. Young Vic balked at this. He'd had plans to go to college. At first, he considered a few fields-business and so on- but by this time, he had decided upon the seminary. (This was before the time he referred to as "believing the Bible as the Word of God".) Old Man Wierwille was skeptical of this, and said that young Vic, having shown lack of hard work on simple manual labour on the farm, would never make a good preacher. Young Vic convinced him he would do better with books than with sweating out in the field. Young Vic went to school for the ministry. His community thought it was some kind of joke- everyone knew he lacked the proper character. (He never overcame that impression with them.) Victor had the option to study "Bible Languages" or other subjects requiring hard study. He instead chose to study Homiletics, the "softest" option he could have learned. (He never overcame his deficiency in study in Bible languages, church history, etc.-not even to the level of an informed layman as of 2004.) Victor was married July 2, 1937(Mr was 20, Mrs was 21). According to vpw, he and Mrs W married secretly while he was still in college. No reason for this was ever given. Victor suggested he played on his college's basketball team, and that after college he played on the professional team "the Sheboygan Redskins." His claim of each was phrased ambiguously ("I played basketball all through college" "I was involved in the Sheboygan Redskins") and the purpose seems to have been so that he was believed to have said he did both without actually making the claims. Later, he began making claims that he also "invented the hook shot" at this time. He graduated with a BA from Lakeland College in 1937. Donald was born in 1940. Victor graduated Princeton Theological Seminary in 1941, with a Masters in Practical Theology. He did his "trial sermons" in 1941 in Payne, Ohio for the Evangelical and Reformed Church. According to his memorial in 1985, he started his first pastorate July 1941, and was ordained July 29, 1941. (According to his account in TW:LIL, his first pastorate began in 1944 in Van Wert, Ohio, and continued until 1957.) Victor entered his first pastorate and wasted little time becoming a bully and a control freak AGAIN. He himself claimed he started his job by immediately doing whatever the elders told him not to do- even though it hampered his ability to do his job properly. According to him, they confronted him on this, he mouthed off at them, and they just let him go about his business, and the local church prospered as a direct result of him. He was known for building a fairly interesting sermon, and getting people involved, including the youths. (This was STILL before the time when he claimed he believed the Bible was the Word of God.) He said the following year, (1942) he slowly became discouraged and was searching. He was still the man he had been, which is to say he was prideful, arrogant, boastful, liked attention, and viewed the clergy as a PROFESSION and not a holy calling. (He could have been just as "called" as an accountant or actuary, say.) During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister. About a year later (Payne, 1942, August), he met Rosal1nd R1nker. She was a former missionary to China and Korea. She's remembered as the anonymous person who asks vpw "Why don't you search for the greatest of all things in life which would teach Christians the HOW of a really victorious life?" This woman fixed a great deal of attention on him, and had a forceful personality. She spent some time with him alone. It was of this time that he later claimed he asked forgiveness of God. He also credits her with DOGGING HIM "on the Bible being the Word of God", and she "got me STARTED on the right track". which, until this time, he hadn't believed, not even in all his years of school. During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister in August AND September. One month later (September 1942), an event happened that he later showed a habit of re-writing. As Victor told God he was getting ready to quit (again), He claimed that God spoke to him and said He (God) would teach him (Victor) His Word (God's Word) like it had not been known since the 1st century, if he (Victor) would teach it to others. (This is the famous 1942 promise.) vpw did not discuss this event with anyone until he told the early corps-according to Mrs W. Thus, the earliest possible origin-point of this story is 1969, when the "zero corps" was begun. Victor of course lacked the education in church history to contextualize this claim- since it was inaccurate as stated. This implies that this was a made-up story, or it came from a god lacking knowledge in history. Victor later added a second part to his story- a snowstorm. He said that he required PROOF of God, and asked God to let him see it snow. A moment later, he opened his eyes, and he saw a veritable blizzard out his window. The later addition to this story suggest that he felt it needed more support after using the initial story. Victor showed no marked improvement, neither in character, nor in behaviour, thru the rest of the 1940s (nearly the entire decade after this supposed promise), which strongly supports the rather direct assertion that he lied thru his teeth. vpw referred to this as one of the two most significant days of his life. October 3, 1942, vpw did his first radio broadcast. He continued to do a radio show under one name or another for several years- Vesper Chimes, aka Chimes Hour Youth Caravan. Its name changes to Chimes Hour Youth Caravan in 1947. Rhoda joined its staff in 1947. (Supposedly, the name "the Way" was in the documentation for this group since 1942.) In 1948, vpw was issued a "Doctorate" from Pikes Peak Seminary, an organization lacking accreditation and formal classes (among other things.) At some point, vpw began claiming that he took EVERY class Moody Bible School's Correspondence program issued. According to official records at Moody, vpw never turned in a single class of their correspondence school. This may mean he took classes and never finished ANY (which indicates laziness), or that he was lying about taking any of their classes. At one point, Rufus Moseley attempted to minister Holy Spirit to vpw, but vpw demonstrated an inability to receive it. In 1951, he visited missionaries in Honduras. In 1951, vpw made another claim he was ready to give up on the ministry (even after, supposedly a direct promise of God about really important stuff which promptly failed to materialize.) In November, 1951, vpw attended the Full Gospel Rally, in Tulsa, Oklahoma (a big Evangelical conference.) He made several claims of this conference. People at the conference OTHER than vpw supposedly had no difficulty beginning speaking in tongues. He claimed he faked speaking in tongues in a clever way, and others were unable to tell. He was further disillusioned about working for God. He then claimed a miraculous snowstorm blocked him into the city entirely, and ALL the evidence there NO blizzard whatsoever (and there was a WEALTH of evidence -at the airports, Amtrak and bus depot, the hotel staff, the attendees, etc) was concealed by angels. vpw also, apparently, never approached a window, or they made an illusion at the window. vpw has referred to this as one of the two most significant days of his life. (Many people currently feel that vpw completely made up the story that God spoke to him in 1942, and that his dependence upon this event plus the event at the Full Gospel Rally to establish his authority were both dressed up with made-up snowstorms to make them sound more spectacular. The specifics of both appear to support this position-especially since vpw was fond of increasing the magnitude of his claims in things as time went on.) Supposedly, a woman came up to him and told him that she knew a man who can help him- JE Stiles. He claims God told Stiles to attend the conference with the sole purpose of ministering the Spirit to vpw. vpw met with Stiles, and made a few chauvinistic observations to himself, before going off with Stiles. Stiles worked with him for a few hours nonstop, hammering across to vpw what the Bible says on speaking in tongues, and working over his doubts one by one. Finally, vpw was able to speak in tongues. It was during the 1950s that vpw's behaviour was noted to finally improve, although he still did not stop including inappropriate words or concepts in his sermons. In March, 1953, vpw found out about BG Leonard, and pushed his way into BG Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class, which Leonard told him was closed, but permitted him to enter after vpw arrived. vpw took this class twice, bringing several people with him the second time. (That second time was July 1953.) vpw then went off for a few months by himself, then told Leonard that he'd like to run Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class locally for his congregation on a one-time basis. Seeing the benefit to other Christians, Leonard agrees. vpw then ran the first of "his" Receiving the Holy Spirit Today classes, (October 1953) and took a photograph of that class. He told the students that this is "his" class called RtHST, with NO mention of Leonard's class from which 100% of the content had been directly lifted. The students had no reason to think he's lying. vpw sent the photograph to Leonard and told Leonard that this is a photo of the class that took Leonard's class on a one-time basis that was run locally. Leonard took vpw at his word, and had no idea that vpw continued to run Leonard's class with vpw's name on it, defrauding both Leonard AND the students. That the classes were interchangeable in terms of material was the opinion of vpw himself- anyone who had graduated Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class was considered to be-by vpw- a graduate of "vpw's" RtHST class. To this day, many students STILL think this was was vpw's class, even when evidence is introduced to the contrary. Later, vpw added the contents of JE Stiles' work on "Gifts of the Spirit" and Bullinger's work on the Holy Spirit as well as "How to Enjoy the Bible", and expanded the class into a class that was the sum of the 3 men's work-Stiles, Bullinger and Leonard-rather than just Leonard. He also renamed the class "Power For Abundant Living", rather than "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today". vpw later made a few offhand comments here and there that the material in the class is not original, but its compilation was. (However, as it was constructed, vpw could have been sued by copyright holders for Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard. Leonard found out but chose not to prosecute.) It is often noted that the supposed 1942 promise claimed vpw would be taught-by God- things unknown since the First Century Christians, if vpw would teach others- yet ALL the material vpw taught was all taken from Leonard/Stiles/Bullinger/Kenyon and a few others, and thus, it was all KNOWN. Therefore, if a god gave vpw revelation in 1942, it was a god that lied, since vpw's source for everything was MAN and NEVER represented information lost since the First Century AD-not even once. In 1953, vpw also took JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Spirit" book, changed a few words, and self-published it as the 1st Edition of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." That it was the same year is no coincidence-it was the "original" textbook for the "original" class. ("Original" in the sense that they were the 1.0 version of his class, not that they originated at that time.) Later editions would include incorporation of material from Leonard and Bullinger, and would include more cosmetic changes in the order of the words and the specific words used in an attempt to make it look less like Stiles' book. Among the changes was the deletion of a reference to an anonymous Christian who "put it together" for vpw (that was Stiles), who was missing by the 4th edition book, where vpw put it all together himself. vpw ran "his" PFAL classes continually from 1953 onward, with some success. Dr E.E. Higgins was one of the students in the October 1953 class. She's known as the anonymous person who would call vpw at night and ask what God showed him that day. In 1954, Dr Higgins first introduced vpw to EW Bullinger's books, and gave him his first copies of the Companion Bible, and "How to Enjoy the Bible." The contents of both these books later became integral parts of "vpw's" class. According to his published memorial, Bishop KC Pillai took PFAL in 1954, and began teaching a class on"Orientalisms of the Bible". (Pillai also wrote 3 small books: "Light Through an Eastern Window" and Volumes I and II of "Orientalisms of the Bible.") According to the memorial in 1985, 1955 was the year they officially chartered "the Way". In 1955, JP was born. 2 months later, VPW left JP with family for the next year or so, and took his wife and eldest son on a tour of the mission fields in India, on the Evangelical and Reformed Church's dime.(1955-1957) (Per TW:LIL) He was irritated that he's reminded he is not officially designated as a spokesman or investigator of theirs. According to his account in TW:LIL, he there met Bishop KC Pillai, whom he later invited to teach. According to the memorial, this tour of the mission fields ran from 1955-1956, and included stops in Great Britain, Europe, India, and "the Bible lands." According to the memorial, 1956 was when he wrote "the Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India."(According to TW:LIL) In 1957, vpw returned to Van Wert. He cut his ties with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and took "his" PFAL class with him.In 1957, he and Harry bought out their brothers and bought the family farm outright. Rather than take ownership themselves, they declared it the propertyof "the Way", a church organization (thus tax-exempt.)(Per TW:LIL, Harry said this was the time they chose the name "the Way".) Work began on fixing up the farm. In 1959, he ran a Wisconsin Summer Camp. In 1960, he ran an Indiana Summer Camp. In 1961, he moved to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient for the move). Bishop Pillai arrived and taught at the summer school. (Per TW:LIL.) In 1961, he ran a Miamisburg, Ohio Summer Camp. In 1962, he moved the summer school to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient to hold classes there in the new BRC.) In 1962, Lamsa taught at the summer school.(Lamsa is another unconventional teacher who claimed special knowledge of the Bible and special status as a man of God.) In 1963, vpw went to Lima, Ohio and filmed the sessions called "the Teacher". (Despite this, success STILL had not taken off as vpw wished.) According to the memorial, 1967 was when "Are the Dead Alive Now?" (which is adapted from some of Bullinger's books) was published, and PFAL was filmed. This was the edition of PFAL that incorporated Bullinger's books (the contents, but not the books themselves) into the curriculum. In Fall of 1967, vpw first filmed the PFAL class. This was done in a setting with bright studio lights. (Bright studio lights do not cause cancer.) vpw claimed that a doctor told him that filming a second day would mean permanent eye damage, and that he was staring into 8000 watts. He filmed for 3 complete days, getting sore eyes from the bright lights (which do not cause cancer.) The figure of 2000 watts seems to be a more realistic figure for the light level of the filmed class (which is still VERY bright.) According to TW:LIL, In 1967, vpw read about the Christians at the House of Acts. vpw went there, impressed them, and convinced them he has extensive, EXCLUSIVE knowledge they lack. He then turned those he could from unorganized Christians into a recruitment arm for his class and organization. They agreed to handle things on the East and West coasts, and many young Christians were impressed with THEM and join. It's been suggested that one of the reasons he went there was because he'd heard of the "free-love" movement and wanted to connect with Christians who would have sex outside of marriage. Thus claim might sound ridiculous if his accounts of them didn't include little comments about their displays of affection-and especially since he'd asked one of them-back then and there-to give him DETAILS on what an orgy was like. He followed up by claiming that God PERMITTED orgies-but considered monogamy BETTER. It's also believed that San Francisco is where vpw bought the pornographic materials he showed the corps, some Advanced Classes and CFS classes-like the movie of the two women with the dog. (He MENTIONED that video to many Advanced classes and CFS classes where it was not SHOWN.) According to the memorial, his trip to Haight-Ashbury/House of Acts was in 1968. As of 1969, sizeable numbers of young people had flocked to twi from both coasts as a result. Once there was sizeable membership in both coasts, vpw pushed out the Christians from the House of Acts and insisted authority would come FROM hq and tithes would go TO hq. No exceptions. At that point (1969), vpw made his first attempt at a Way Corps, which resulted in the famous "Zero Corps". At some point-presumably early in the way corps history, and possibly as early as 1969, vpw (according to Mrs W's account) first begins to tell his "snow on the pumps" account to people, starting with the way corps. At another point-before the early 1970s-vpw began adding to the "special revelation" that produced the books and classes (which were really compilations of the work of other Christians with their names removed) and began speaking of special revelation about current events. He began to expound on some conspiracy theories to the corps, and about attempts to take over the United States. vpw was getting this material from the John Birch Society and the Liberty Lobby. A few people on-grounds were aware of information coming in from them, but almost nobody knew those were the direct sources of his supposed "revelation". As he had done often before, he just claimed to mysteriously know things and never cited a source-leaving the listeners to guess that there WAS no conventional source, making this ANOTHER thing God just told him. These conspiracy theorist organizations and their personal biases fill in the blanks in some of his odder statements. Their anti-Semitism helps explain his claims that the current Jews were not descended from the historic Jews (which has been disproven genetically since), and his recommendations of books like "the Thirteenth Tribe." Their condemnation of rock and roll and musician/celebrities explain his claims of all musicians being possessed, and his recommendation of "the Marxist Minstrels" to the corps (which claimed rock and roll was a communist plot to take over the United States.) vpw even had David Noebel, who wrote "the Marxist Minstrels" come and lecture the corps. In 1971, vpw began his WOW Ambassador program. This program underwent some changes, but primarily was a one-year committment to get sent out, support yourself, find housing, and run PFAL classes. According to his memorial, 1971 was when the Orange Book, "Power for Abundant Living" was first self-published. It contained mostly material from Leonard's class and from Bullinger's book "How to Enjoy the Bible". A number of pamphlets called "Studies in Abundant Living" accompanied the PFAL class from fairly early on (the filmed class names "Studies in Human Suffering", later renamed "Job:Victim to Victor".) In 1971, the first 3 volumes of "Studies in Abundant Living" are published, compiling the pamphlets into 3 small hardbound books. In 1974, Emporia College in Emporia, Kansas was bought. It was renamed "the Way College of Emporia". Despite an absence of accreditation, licensed professors, and a school "library" composed ENTIRELY of used textbooks donated by way members, it was put forth as if it is a normal, accredited college. In 1975, "Jesus Christ is Not God" was published. This was the last book- not counting Vol 4 of Studies in Abundant Living- that was actually put together by vpw. In 1976, campuses were purchased in Rome City, Indiana ("the College of Biblical Research") and Gunnison, Colorado ("the Way Family Ranch-Camp Gunnison"). In 1977, the PFAL '77 was done live at Ball State University. According to the memorial, in 1977, Howard Allen and Donald Wierwille were installed as Trustees on the Board of Trustees (replacing "Uncle" Harry Wierwille and Ermal Owens.) In 1977, Volume 4 of Studies in Abundant Living was published. In 1978, the land for the LEAD Outdoor Academy was purchased in Tinnie, New Mexico. In 1979, Advanced Class '79 ran (live, I imagine.) In 1980, "Jesus Christ Our Passover" was published. This was the first book written by competent staff and researchers. According to the book itself, it was written "by Victor Paul Wierwille", with no mention of anyone else. It was a higher-caliber book than twi normally self-publishes. In 1982, twi celebrates its "Fortieth Anniversary" since the radio shows that weren't called "the Way". In 1982, vpw installed LCM as the new president of twi and vpw becomes "president emeritus". In 1982, "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" was published. It also was written by staff, and said "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover. It relied largely on the calculations of another writer as well. This book also saw the breakthrough of proper crediting, since it actually named the other writer (Martin) and his book. In 1984, a live PFAL class was taught at Camp Gunnison, and a manor house was purchased in Gartmore, Scotland. It was named the Way College of Biblical Research. (aka Gartmore House, or "the big house" to the villagers of Gartmore.) vpw spent his life drinking alcoholic beverages and smoking cigarettes and cigars- tobacco products. Although he usually did it "off-camera", many people knew some of this. Everyone knew he at least smoked, but he seemed to chain-smoke when "no one was watching." Furthermore, he had a "coffee cup" next to him for morning meetings and so on-and often, the contents had nothing to do with coffee. Those who ever commented on it (who were few enough among those who noticed) were treated to his comments about us not being "under condemnation" and thus it wasn't sinful, and therefore had no consequences. However, there WERE consequences.... By 1984, the long-term exposure to alcohol-which damages internal organs, including those that act as the body's filtration system and also damages the brain- and long-term exposure to tobacco-which is a known cancer-causing agent (unlike studio lights)- resulted in some permanent damage to vpw' body. He acquired cancer of the eye and liver, and suffered a stroke. vpw quite vocally-and often- announced that the eye damage was the result of getting cancer from the studio lights used when filming PFAL- thus saying it was the result of virtuous activity, and used to give the students a guilty conscience. Once, when addressing the corps, he was speaking on personal committment to God. He said "I gave my EYE-what are YOU willing to give?" Further, in private, vpw was MOST disturbed that he had ANY physical problems, especially this one. He claimed he'd never been sick or needed an aspirin EVER- not ONE DAY in his life-before this. Not even in PRIVATE did he ever seem to admit he'd exposed his body to carcinogens for DECADES. He had surgery that removed the cancer-stricken eye. The details of the stroke were COMPLETELY hidden-although there were witnesses- and the existence of any cancer produced a problem. According to vpw's DOCTRINE, any Christian should be able to believe sufficiently to burn out a cancer from their body. vpw had slowly manipulated his personal image to the point that he was frequently seen as some sort of super-Christian-which is what he wanted. However, this meant he should have EASILY believed away his cancer. WORSE, he'd taught in the Advanced class that, since a cancer has a life of its own (like algae), it must be the result of devil activity. Since vpw was supposedly a super-Christian, he should have been able to deflect such an assault easily. However, rather than adjust his image, or correct his doctrine-which had already hurt many other Christians-he simply hid the cause of his descent into death. In 1985 the "Word over the World Auditorium" opened at the organizations hq on the farm. vpw died May 20, 1985 at age 68. According to his death certificate, the cause was cancer of the liver and of the eye. According to most people in twi at the time, the cause was UNKNOWN. The most commonly-stated reason was "he got tired of fighting." In the last few months of his life, vpw visited Gartmore and spoke privately with Chr1s Ge*r. He (CG) later claimed that his own paper which he wrote afterwards-"the Passing of the Patriarch"-was based entirely on private conversations with vpw. (Some people believe him, some do not.) That paper-among other things-also claims that vpw would have been able to "believe himself healthy" if he'd wanted to. Volume 5 of Studies in Abundant Living was published posthumously. Its contents were from vpw, it was edited by Chr1$ Ge*r. =========

You responded to my distrust of MSN monitoring my searches with: A) I use Firefox, which is based on the Mozilla program, which was used for Netscape Navigator. When I can't used Firefox, I use IE. B) IE IS operated by Microsoft. That has nothing to do with my distrust of MS monitoring my searches. IE is not spyware. MS does not get information about me just from my IE usage-except possibly from my cookies when I'm logged in to an MSN site. That's why I warned about cookies. C) Google is operated for money. However, you do not know how they make the money. For the record, they use SPONSORED ADS. So, Google remains a valuable tool because people find it to be the BEST search engine, which would not be the case if advertising would overthrow the search results. You can easily ignore the ads, and many people do.

The search criteria differ, so A) they DON'T search the same places B) the results don't come up in the same order, prioritizing differently C) MSN is a corporate-sponsored engine, which means people like twi pay to have their entry come up first (we discussed this a long time ago) D) MSN's search will show FAR fewer results, and may miss what you're looking for (It did when I used MSN search, back when) E) MSN passes an entire "plate" of "cookies" when you even log in to their page. I really don't trust MSN monitoring my searches, especially when their engine isn't that hot. Will you go to hell for using MSN? Heck, no. However, I do not know anything for which it is the BEST engine to use. (Even Yahoo's best for something...)

Johniam, while you're waiting for the hall monitor to sort this all out or something, I started a new thread in this forum that may interest you.

In the interests of fairness, I thought it would be a good idea to have one thread where all the people who have the perception of feeling persecuted could post, and not have the rest of the forum interfere. So, the purpose of this thread is to have a place where people who want to say NICE things about TWI, or VPW, or PFAL or stuff along those lines can post, WITHOUT hearing anything about criminal acts or ruined lives or anything. So, here it is. I'll even set it up as best I can.... ================ You see a meadow, with large tents overhead, covering areas. Above the tents is a clear sky, without a hint of clouds, and there's a cool breeze in the warm air, keeping it warm but not hot. You see several benches unoccupied under one tent, and there's some pitchers of lemonade and other items here, along with glasses.

Technically, he said he was using MSN search, not Google search. (Give him time to work up to using Google and easing off MSN.) However, it appears that's what happened. He did a search, found some links, posted the links. It's a LOT faster than vetting your sources. That step, frankly, is unnecessary to some people. After all, when you start from the position that "all religious figures are at least as corrupt as vpw", all you have to do is ignore any evidence to the contrary, and seize any pretext to label or badmouth any leader. ==== Bullinger's book "Word Studies on the Holy Spirit" (formerly "the Giver and His Gifts") was used extensively by vpw for the White Book, the pfal class, and doctrine in general. (IMHO, it's one of his sources for his outright hatred of Catholicism.) Anyway, Warren Wiersbe wrote a Foreword to it in 1979. It includes the following statement: "We may not agree with him, but at least we have the opportunity to examine our own convictions in the light of his thinking. It has been well said that he who knows only his own position does not know even that. It is good to widen our outlook even if we do not change our position, for, as Dorothy Sayers wrote, 'There's nothing you can't prove if your outlook is only sufficiently limited.' " I thought it was worth remembering.

May I suggest we address rfr to the best of our ability, then see what we have on the others? That reminds me-you'll need to remind me who's in charge there at the moment-at least on paper. From what I've seen, rfr is undeniably anal-retentive, that is, extremein the degree of rules and regulations she insists on using, and requiring things conform to official policy-no exceptions. That's been unanimous among EVERY story of EVERY person who's mentioned her here. As to whether or not she's a lesbian, some people don't care, some people don't think so, and some people do. One person mentioned someone accidentally walking in on her just "after". One person mentioned that-despite rfr loving luxury-she regularly stayed in a hotel room with a single bed, sharing it with another adult female. In and of itself, that is proof of nothing, but it IS peculiar, since it obviously wasn't to save money. It is a matter of public record that she had a lesbian couple staying on as borders in her home. That also is proof of nothing-except this was during the "homo purge", so there's a degree of hypocrisy there. You may reach your own conclusions on that. Some people can argue either way on that, and others can say "so what?". Finally, if you've heard positives about rfr, please share. I've been looking for some for years now. If you just accepted EVERYTHING someone said here, you'd need professional help. :) I'd say that's an exagerration about a question becoming a "fact". The part about the thread getting derailed for a bit with toilet humour- well, that's not uncommon. Then there's someone attacking people for posing the question, or for trying to answer it, and THAT becomes a discussion as well... I, for one, have made attempts to coherently connect the dots, and it has NOT been difficult. One example was the thread where I asked about vpw's secret ceremony with the robes. I wanted to see if it EVER had some sort of serious component of some kind. Those who had witnessed it came on and LOUDLY put an end to the possibility. It was always just a stupid joke. So, all joking aside, that was the end of that topic. As for the rfr thread, I grouped the relevant posts together on the last page for easy reading. You may find that more useful than just paging thru the jokes and derails.

Actually, Billy Graham doesn't concentrate on bringing people to HIS organization. If they're led to Christ and work with their LOCAL churches, that's FINE with him, and is MUCH preferred to them not being connected ANYWHERE. Now, twi has always been "It's US or NOBODY". Billy Graham has also been in the public SPOTLIGHT, the glass goldfish bowl , for DECADES. The internet has had LOTS of time to expose twi, and LOTS of time to expose Billy Graham. There's lots of site exposing evils of twi. How many can you find "exposing" Graham? He's been found "blameless", which is a requirement of leaders. Sexual scandal? He won't even allow himself to enter an ELEVATOR alone with a woman not his wife. Want me to compare that with the twi standard on sex scandal?

Ok, Continuing the rules. (I also went with a better-documented list, so these are all "official", being directly from Paramount sources, generally tv episodes.) ======== Rule 052. "Never ask when you can take." Rule 059. "Free advice is seldom cheap." Rule 060. "Keep your lies consistent." Rule 062. "The riskier the road, the greater the profit." Rule 074. "Knowledge equals profit." Rule 075. "Home is where the heart is, but the stars are made of latiunum." Rule 082. "The flimsier the product, the higher the price." Rule 097. "Enough...is never enough." Rule 098. "Every man has his price." Rule 099. "Trust is the biggest liability of all." Rule 106. "There is no honor in poverty." Rule 109. "Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack." Rule 111. "Treat people in your debt like family...exploit them." Rule 121. "Everything is for sale, even friendship." Rule 144. "There's nothing wrong with charity...as long as it winds up in your pocket." ======== BTW, I have a correction on 2 Rules, which actually make them MORE relevant. Rule 012 is "Anything worth selling is worth selling twice." Rule 013 is "Anything worth doing is worth doing for money." Considering the twi Rules would include "Rule 14: Anything worth selling twice is worth selling three times", twi can be considered greedier than Ferengi.