WordWolf

Yes, that's how they announced it publicly. ==== I'll add a few comments to the already-fairly-complete picture. One poster here posted once that they interacted with vpw in the last 24 hours of his life, and that he seemed to be sincere when he was wondering something over and over. Supposedly, he was trying to figure out where he blew it in his life that he wasn't able to believe for healing. Either he was still putting on a show, or he honestly didn't think the lives he ruined would have any spiritual impact. (Probably BOTH.) I'd also like to mention the technical reasons for his early death. He had cancer in his eye and cancer in his liver. It's been claimed-by twi and by posters here- that he got cancer in his eye from the bright lights of pfal, so his death was our fault because he filmed it for us. Now, I'd believe that he sensitized his eyes in filming. However, we know what the most common carcinogens are (we know what you usually would get cancer from.) Bright lights don't cause cancer- unless you're using an ULTRAVIOLET spotlight. vpw COULD have used those lights until he was driven blind from their brightness, and he STILL would not have gotten cancer from them. What does cause cancer? The most common cancer-causing agent is TOBACCO-cigars, cigarettes. If you're around "second-hand smoke" enough, you can get lung cancer. Sigmund Freud needed surgery to his mouth to remove cancerous tissue that resulted from HIS cigars. vpw smoked cigars. vpw smoked cigarettes. vpw smoked cigars and cigarettes. vpw smoked cigars and cigarettes A LOT. To call the man a chain-smoker is to understate the amount of smoking he did. The eye is a fantastic organ, but it has very sensitive tissues. It's vulnerable to more than most external tissue. So, if it's continually exposed to carcinogens in the air, it should be no surprise it got cancer. It also should not surprise anyone that one eye got more cancer. That's because exposure will not be uniform. People exhale smoke in a particular direction. It would not have to say anything about the eye that caught the cancer. Supposedly, he got cancer in his eye, and it spread to his liver, and then he degenerated and died pretty young. This ALSO makes sense. vpw drank alcoholic beverages. vpw drank alcoholic beverages a LOT. vpw was usually seen with either a cigar/cigarette in his hand or mouth, or a drink in his hand, or both. vpw would often start drinking VERY EARLY in the day (his "coffee mug" didn't hold "coffee", or at least, ONLY coffee.) He would KEEP drinking. Drambuie seemed to be his most common drink. Now, frequent, persistent drinking damages the liver. So, the entire time he was drinking, he was injuring his liver, weakening it. So, when it was exposed to cancer, it had NO ability to fight it off. So, his vices of alcohol and tobacco slowly poisoned and weakened his body, eventually killing him. Please note that vpw was VERY vocal about people having "discipline" and self-control, and the entire time, he was addicted to tobacco and alcohol. (Which, of course, shows a lack of SELF-discipline.) So, his vices slowly killed him, as I see it.

If I miss any more like that last one, I'll have to hand in my membership card... And I'm sure this one isn't the Alan Parsons Project, since he wouldnt include the title in the clue.

"We're Americans. With a capital 'A', huh? And do you know what that means? Do you? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts. See? His nose is cold."

Ok. We took a look at vpw's own "speaking in tongues" experience in the "Way:Living in Wonderland" thread. I think it wasn't so much to help their believing, but to do something Stiles NEVER did with him. Stiles built his believing and walked him through speaking in tongues, then left and let vpw get on with his life. I think vpw had a special experience with God (speaking in tongues), and decided he'd try to slap a product label on it. Where others would lead Christians to speak in tongues, vpw would tie speaking in tongues to his organization, so you'd have to be on your way "in" to speak in tongues. People were actively discouraged from speaking in tongues before Session 12. They HAD TO connect speaking in tongues with PFAL, they HAD to. That made them dependent upon PFAL, and the organization that ran PFAL. I was back in the other thread. :) Right the first time, Roy! vpw wanted to be thought of as THE leader, which means he had to be seen as THE Teacher, THE Christian, the Most Special Christian. 'All other churches are doo-doo, only this one is good!' He also had to isolate the young and impressionable from OTHER Christians, so they could never see that some were quite good. To the STUDENT, yes.But vpw didn't really care about the individual STUDENT, so long as he had MOST of them. They were interchangeable and DISPOSABLE, even in the Way Corps. So, he got what he wanted. You've got it. Sadly, I think we all did.It's normal for someone to get excited and accidentally push, but vpw WANTED us to push. vpw HATED the Roman Catholic Church (as did lcm). He was sometimes vicious with their stuff back when he was with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and he didn't "lighten up" when he ran his own show. Yes, and that was his PLAN. He WANTED it that way. I learned a lot, myself, in our examination of "his" book, "the Way:Living in Love."

Is Rita Skeeter in there, or were all her scenes left out of the script?

Statutory rape, as defined in "the Legal Dictionary": "sexual intercourse with a female below the legal age of consent, but above the age of a child, even if the female gave her consent, did not resist and/or mutually participated." Yep-sex with multiple 14 and 15 year olds is statutory rape. The only possible way to avoid this being a felony is to escape ONE count of this crime by obtaining PRIOR JUDICIAL PERMISSION and MARRYING that ONE minor. Sex between two individuals who have obtained a legal marriage license is not a crime. If he tried to escape ALL counts of STATUTORY RAPE, he would need PRIOR JUDICIAL CONSENT to marry EACH girl. As we know, judicial consent is not granted for the comission of a crime, and marrying more than one spouse is not legal in the US. Koresh did NOT obtain PRIOR JUDICIAL PERMISSION, so he committed multiple acts of STATUTORY RAPE. STATUTORY RAPE all by itself is a felony.Koresh had sex with more than one girl aged 14-15. Each such act was STATUTORY RAPE. Amazing how you're unable to comprehend this. The boiling point of water is 212 degrees Farenheit. So what? We're not talking about the FBI,we're talking about a MULTIPLE ACCOUNT RAPIST. Only YOU keep bringing up a supposed justification to commit murder. Then again, you refuse to call statutory rape what it is. That's not from any of our posts. Please do not invent straw men when supposedly discussing with us. You're ineligible for a marriage license at the age of 14 or 15, unless the COURT has reviewed your situation, and agreed you're a special exemption and can give informed consent, despite being legally a minor. Ever try entering into a legal contract with a minor? It won't work. Contract law specifies minors are legally unable to enter into contracts, or give informed consent to enter into contracts. (A contract is also voided if any of the parties are insane, since the insane are unable to give informed consent. That's in every contract-that's the sanity clause.) They DON'T allow that.The County Clerk of ANY county would disallow it. He would NOT issue a license, which is the legally-binding portion of a marriage. I posted a link to the County Clerk of Dallas' website, where this is spelled out. I posted a link to a judgement by the Texas Attorney General-the state's highest law officer, where he EXPLAINS all this. I recommend actually reading the linked sites and trying to understand them.

They did not BELIEVE it was sick. That made it no less sick, no less wrong, no less illegal. The guys in NAMBLA who want to have sex with little boys, they don't WANT to "break the law", they just want to have sex with little boys. They've constructed a sub-culture where it is permissible and acceptable to have sex with little boys. According to NAMBLA, the little boys would not be harmed if the adult males had sex with them. According to NAMBLA, they have no ill will towards the little boys and wish only good things for them. So, according to YOUR logic, a NAMBLA guy with "no criminal intent" who has sex with a little boy can't be charged with a crime. He claims he has not harmed the little boy, he has no "criminal intent", he claims the little boy has BENEFITTED from the experience and consented and so on. By YOUR logic, this makes what he did fine. By the laws of ALL 50 United States, that NAMBLA guy committed a felony, and will go to jail. (Where he will face other criminals who view child molestors as the lowest of the low-even to THEM they are reprehensible.) When he comes out of jail, entire communities would have to be notified of his whereabouts, in order to alert the parents that their little boys face an imminent danger. If John Law catches you in Texas having sex with a little boy, you WILL go to jail, you WILL be charged with a felony, and you WILL serve a sentence behind bars. If John Law catches you in Texas having sex with 2 15-year old females (the minimum possible scenario with Koresh), you WILL go to jail, and you WILL be charged with a felony, and you WILL serve a sentence behind bars. We're still discussing the STATUTORY RAPE COMMITTED by Koresh when he had sex with 14 and 15 year olds.

Nice site. It's NOT a an official site of the government of the state of Texas. As that site's disclaimer says, it is "not a substitute for personal legal advice from an attorney." According to their "Conditions of Use" disclaimer, "FreeAdvice is a legal publisher, and neither a law firm, nor a substitute for an attorney's advice, nor a legal referral service. By using FreeAdvice...you are agreeing that under no circumstances will the Company, its affiliates, or any lawyer listed on either site be responsible for (1) any information contained on or omitted from the site (2) any person's reliance on any such information, whether or not the information is correct, current or complete (3) the consequences of any action you or any other person takes or fails to take, whether or not based on information provided by or as a result of the use of the sites." In short, they're not legal experts and offer no guarantee ANY of their site's contents are accurate. But THIS is the site you picked to document your side. I used several. If you look, you'll see that I cited the official site for the Dallas County Clerk's Office. That's an official county in Texas. Marriages are not legal or recognized without a marriage license. I linked the page giving the requirements for obtaining a marriage license in Dallas County, which is bound by ALL the same requirements as the rest of the state. (Each county does NOT have different license requirements.) What are the license requirements? "JUDICIAL APPROVAL IS REQUIRED FOR ANY MARRIAGE UNDER 16. INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE 16 AND 17 MUST HAVE JUDICIAL APPROVAL OR PARENTAL CONSENT." In other words, an AUTHORITATIVE site said you were wrong, and an UNauthoritative site said you were right. (There's no DISCLAIMER on the site of the County Clerk's office.) So, marriages of a man to a 14 or 15-year old in Texas without PRIOR JUDICIAL APPROVAL are invalid, and they're unable to get married. Sex between an adult and a 14- or 15-year old minor in Texas with whom they are not married is STATUTORY RAPE. STATUTORY RAPE is the same as RAPE in regards to laws and sentencing. Furthermore, Koresh would be unable to legally obtain a marriage license for all of his sex partners. The state of Texas would issue ONE license at MOST. (It would not issue one for him and a 14-year old without PRIOR JUDICIAL APPROVAL.) Therefore, by definition, if he had sex with 2 or more girls of age 14 or 15, it would be impossible under ANY provision under Texas law (even if he DID get judicial approval for ONE) to avoid the charge of STATUTORY RAPE. It was immoral of him to exploit the office of leader to trick his congregation's women into having sex with him. Based on violations of fiduciary trust, some of the adults may have sued him in civil court, and may have won. It was both IMMORAL AND ILLEGAL for Koresh to have sex with 14-and 15-year olds. In the eyes of the law, a 14 or 15-year old is unable to give INFORMED CONSENT, which is why any exceptions would need prior review and approval by a judge (who is both a legal expert and holds the office of an executor of the law.) The state does acknowledge that it is possible that someone may find an exception where this may apply. It's obvious you were unable to understand the explanation given by the TEXAS STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL- which I linked- which explained WHY this is set up in this fashion. This is no surprise. If the sheriff is unaware Koresh is having sex with 14-year olds, he can't claim KoreshIS. Since the parents were hoodwinked, and the teens had diminished capacity due to age, no one had filed a report of STATUTORY RAPE. With no report filed, I don't expect the sheriff to just somehow know Koresh COMMITTED STATUTORY RAPE. The lack of a filed report does not mean that a crime has not occurred- just that an investigation has not begun since you can't investigate a crime you've never heard was committed, nor suspect happened. If you are murdered and no one ever finds the body (you just disappear), the murdered STILL committed a murder, which is a felony. If you are raped and never report it, you were still the victim of a felony. I don't need to watch a film to know that an adult male having sex with 14 or 15 year oldS in Texas is COMMITTING STATUTORY RAPE. Why did you not even suspect this, and why do you even question this? Fine. You're a supposedly healthy person, who is claiming that a felony was not a crime, and minors who were the victims of felonies were not victims of a crime, and you've claimed that sex with underage partners is not a crime in Texas. You've stopped short of literally ADVOCATING it as far as I see. Was that a lapse, or did I miss it, or would you like to claim 'adults SHOULD have sex with minors in Texas' and get this over with? For a supposedly-healthy person, you're already advocating FOR someone who committed statutory rape. If you had sex with a 14-year old in the US with whom you were not married, who was 1/2 your age, and she gave full consent in WRITING and VIDEO ahead of time, you'd still go to JAIL for "STATUTORY RAPE". That's a CRIME in the US. Don't you know what the term "jailbait" is? The "culture" of the Branch Davidians was the US culture. Waco is in TEXAS. That's in the US. They get tv and radio-the same channels as the rest of us. Etc, etc. Further, if you married someone, then had sex with a minor with whom you are not married, that's "STATUTORY RAPE" and ILLEGAL in this country. Further, if you married more than one minor, that's "BIGAMY" and ILLEGAL in this country. David Koresh broke the LETTER of the law with his boinking the women of "his congregation", no matter WHAT justification he gave. You may have forgotten, but "freedom of religion" does not allow you to commit crimes as defined in the Laws of the US. That was reiterated in the court documents presented to twi in one of their cases. People have the right to believe as they wish, and teach as they wish, but they may not commit crimes, nor incite to commit crimes, nor conspire to commit crimes. === Besides it being ILLEGAL, it was also IMMORAL. "David Koresh" abused his office when he defined procedure and said all the women were supposed to have sex with him. Even if "everyone knew about it and approved", you're still ignoring that when an authority figure REDEFINES things for you, and establishes social structures that REINFORCE that, it doesn't steal all freewill from the person, but it means they are no longer thinking in a fair and objective fashion. (Perhaps you still don't see that, ever.) So, it is wrong for a religious leader to take a woman (or man), arrange things in his favour, pressure him/her to have sex with him, and claim it's perfectly fine. WHETHER OR NOT HE DRUGS HIM OR HER. It's wrong no matter WHO does it.

The organization calling itself "The Way International" (also known as "the Way Ministry") claims its founding was in 1942. The old radio programs of vpw supposedly started that year -Vesper Chimes, Chimes Hour Youth Caravan. "The Way" was incorporated OFFICIALLY in 1957. vpw was an Evangelical and Reformed minister until 1957. That was the year he and "Uncle Harry" bought out the other brothers, and set up the corporation. Since it was supposedly a non-profit corporation (churches don't pay taxes) and doing so that year meant they didn't have to pay any taxes on the farm. The classes didn't begin until 1953, when vpw sat through BG Leonard's class twice, then began teaching BG Leonard's class and calling it "HIS" class-PFAL. The ministry didn't really experience growth until 1969, when vpw "hijacked the hippies"- tricking legitimate Christian youths into becoming his sales force for pfal, producing explosive growth in New York and California. So, what year it started in depends on where you're counting from. Counting from 1942, to say the least, is deceptive. ======== At the moment, they're claiming people in a lot of other countries. That includes military temporarily stationed in a country, and other ways to claim you have people in a country when it's really one or two people in an entire country. Notice they never give how MANY people they have-either WORLDWIDE or per country. At the moment, twi, for all practical purposes, exists ONLY in the United States. For that matter, their existence in the United States is a tiny, almost insignificant thing. There are perhaps 2000 adults currently in the entire organization. There are some LOCAL churches that are much bigger than that in ONE location, and most that have multiple "branches" in a city can equal or best that for their city alone. So, TWI is "small potatoes"- except for the people whose lives they ruin.

I keeps reminding me of a similar line in "Only the Good Die Young".

Texas law... Without consent of a parent or legal guardian, the age is 18. (At which point you have achieved your majority.) WITH consent of parent, the limit is 16, UNLESS YOU HAVE A COURT ORDER. http://www.coolnurse.com/marriage_laws.htm http://www.weddingvendors.com/marriage-lic...d-states/texas/ http://www.dallascounty.org/html/citizen-s...ge-license.html It was a crime, you sicko. Koresh had sex with 14-year olds. He did not have court orders saying he was married to them. Therefore, EACH sex act with a 14-year old or a 15-year old was an act of STATUTORY RAPE, which is equivalent to RAPE in the eyes of the State of Texas. It's obvious you have no idea WHY there's an age limit. Here's the Office of the State Attorney General of Texas, the leading LAW OFFICER's office for Texas, explaining the rationale. http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/op47mattox/jm-0359.htm Judge Mattox communicates in plain English. Thus, I expect everyone ELSE to see the WHY of it when reading this.

He MISrepresented a large amount of material, giving ZERO attribution. ZERO attribution for the work of others is a crime. He said that of PFAL,and the first PFAL classes were transliterations of Leonard. The only thing he "put together" there was HIS name and Leonard's work. Then he added Bullinger, Kenyon and Stiles, AGAIN giving NO attribution. That's 3 more crimes. Amazing how you STILL don't "understand" what plagiarism is. You are UNWILLING to comprehend it. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm Your "definition" of plagiarism falls FAR SHORT of the legal definition, both in practice and theory. Wrong. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm

Just curious- were those trips like Donna and Rozilla took, with the one suite with the single bed, or just normal extravagant trips? Or was it unclear which?

Ok, so you're saying that it was perfectly fine-moral AND legal- for "David Koresh" to impregnate all the women in the kingdom (did they all belong to the king?) from age 14 and up, because that's their ways, although they are strange to us. If you had sex with a 14-year old in the US with whom you were not married, who was 1/2 your age, and she gave full consent in WRITING and VIDEO ahead of time, you'd still go to JAIL for "STATUTORY RAPE". That's a CRIME in the US. Don't you know what the term "jailbait" is? I'm unsure whether or not it is actually legal to marry a 14-year old in ANY state, so I'll skip addressing that one. The "culture" of the Branch Davidians was the US culture. Waco is in TEXAS. That's in the US. They get tv and radio-the same channels as the rest of us. Etc, etc. Further, if you married someone, then had sex with a minor with whom you are not married, that's "STATUTORY RAPE" and ILLEGAL in this country. Further, if you married more than one minor, that's "BIGAMY" and ILLEGAL in this country. David Koresh broke the LETTER of the law with his boinking the women of "his congregation", no matter WHAT justification he gave. You may have forgotten, but "freedom of religion" does not allow you to commit crimes as defined in the Laws of the US. That was reiterated in the court documents presented to twi in one of their cases. People have the right to believe as they wish, and teach as they wish, but they may not commit crimes, nor incite to commit crimes, nor conspire to commit crimes. === Besides it being ILLEGAL, it was also IMMORAL. "David Koresh" abused his office when he defined procedure and said all the women were supposed to have sex with him. Even if "everyone knew about it and approved", you're still ignoring that when an authority figure REDEFINES things for you, and establishes social structures that REINFORCE that, it doesn't steal all freewill from the person, but it means they are no longer thinking in a fair and objective fashion. (Perhaps you still don't see that, ever.) So, it is wrong for a religious leader to take a woman (or man), arrange things in his favour, pressure him/her to have sex with him, and claim it's perfectly fine. WHETHER OR NOT HE DRUGS HIM OR HER. It's wrong no matter WHO does it. =========== Maybe so, but each poster answers to his or her own conscience, Oldies.Neither you nor I set policy, and can neither forbid nor compel posting on a subject. He announced what he intends to do. Don't like it? Complain to the admins. Yeah, man, that prophet Nathan, he was a biggie on tearing down, and that Jeremiah, too.... and those watchmen on the walls of the city-they were downers, disturbing the quiet of the city and worrying everyone... and Woodward and Bernstein, they were such alarmists....

You didn't read him as closely as you thought. He said he's focusing on ONE area, and not addressing ANOTHER area. Period.

"Tito Puente's gonna be dead, and you're gonna say, 'Oh, I've been listening to him for years, and I think he's fabulous.'"

Was the "hallucinating" line during the famous "pizza delivery in class" scene? That's where I pictured it.... I'm surprised you didn't go with "Hey dude-let's party!", Spicoli's commentary on encountering a wave when surfing. I still LOVE the after-movie notes. If I remember correctly, Spicoli saved Brooke Shields from drowning, then blew the ENTIRE reward by hiring Van Halen to play his next birthday party, or something similar. Hm. I need a movie....

I found this on another thread and didn't want to lose this. "My time with Donna was during the time period of 1978-80. At that time she was an arrogant, mean-spirited b*tch in her late twenties. She coveted after power....she explained to a bunch of us once that when she was 'husband-hunting', she had dated numerous top twi leaders, dropping names of 1st and 2nd corps guys. She said that when she got to craiggers, she knew he was the one. Why? Because she knew that he was going to 'the top' as she put it. She somehow knew that she was destined to be on the top rung of the twi ladder and she got herself there. It's almost like the story of MacBeth- ambition, power, money. She was willing to put up with lcm's adultery in order to maintain her position as 'first lady of twi'- it was a simple tradeoff. Her disgust with her husband was only exceeded by her own lust for power and position. Today, she probably feels like she 'earned' the right to live in the corps chalet for all the years of putting up with bozo. Of course, with her sexual orientation being in question, perhaps she is still 'earning' her position as 'first lady of twi'?" "That's exactly what she told ME once in a conversation. She told me (this was late '70s) that she had decided years before she would do Whatever It Takes to 'get to the top'. She was totally committed to being a top hot dog (as they used to say.) She was very calculating. Although, back when she was young, to look at her, you never would have thunk it because at one time, she was a wonderful, compassionate person who truly did have a heart for people. In fact, I think it was that quality that helped get her to the 'top.' She is where she is now by deliberate, scheming decision." ========= This, you may remember, is from the book... "LCM finally decided he needed to get married. He goes to Dr and lets him know his thoughts and seeking advice. Dr promised he'd look out for a good woman for him. Later, LCM decided to marry Donna and immediately told Dr. Dr said 'She's a good woman' and then rode off quickly on his motorbike. LCM found out later that he had gone at once to call Donna and talk to her to let her know and understand fully what she was getting into with LCM. He was going to be a great leader in the ministry and she had to be prepared to handle herself accordingly, etc."

That last one sounds like Jeff Spicoli, from "Fast Times at Ridgemont High". I'm pretty sure it was NOT a "Bill and Ted" movie- there were no actual mentions of drugs in those that I'm aware of (like "Quaaludes.") Then again, maybe it's something like "Half-baked"...

The last "report" we had of him was: -if you ask TWI, you won't get an answer, but will get you in trouble -he lives in Toledo, Ohio -at one time, he worked for UPS (United Parcel Service) -he works part-time as a personal trainer at a Bally's gym in Toledo, Ohio. -he is trying to avoid notice by us -he is living (perhaps this is old) in the same house as a doctor -he is not divorced, and asking about THAT won't get an answer, but will get you in trouble -he seems to be living comfortably, as if twi money is coming to him and paying his rent and bills

It figures. God forbid that the bot/bod would actually stop spending money like they had Bill Gates' piggy bank. So, the cuts were made everywhere else.....