WordWolf

Nuts. Belle beat me to it. Deleting my requote...

"Yeah, I have. However this is based upon yet another one of VPWs blunders with Greek. VPW taught that "saved" was translated from the Greek "sozo". Then he taught that sozo came from the Greek root word "zoe" meaning life in its fullest. He then relates that to "wholeness" . Then he fits that in with his formed, made & created / body, soul, and spirit theory. The final result being, saved means receiving the holy spirit and thus becoming body, soul and spirit once more ( the spirit being missing previously). So then according to VPW a person is saved/made whole when he/she receives the spirit. The problem with this is that sozo - (saved) DOES NOT come from the Greek "zoe" as VPW errantly taught. Sozo comes instead from the primary Greek "sos" a contraction for the obsolete obsolete saoz, "safe". VPW foisted the Greek and then forced a new meaning on sozo so that his definition of salvation would fit neatly in with body, soul, spirit. He also misunderstood why the King James translated sozo "made/make whole"in regards to physical healing. Salvation is from the Greek "soter" , which has a common root with sozo (saved). However neither of these Greek words is related to "zoe" or to wholeness. Wierwille was dead wrong in his definition of saved/salvation." ========= See, this is the type of problem that can crop up when you get your degree in "HOMILETICS" and then act as if you got it in Koine Greek or Bible languages or the like.

Martin Niemoeller: " First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a communist. Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me- and there was no one left to speak out for me."

Ok, it seems we've reached the end of the quotes for this book. Having read thru all this, and having discussed it, I'd like some general thoughts, possibly from those who haven't been posting every day (for variety). Do any old-timers from the 70s have any general conclusions on this subject-the book or its contents? What do the exits from the 90s and 00s have to say about all this?

Not only have we discussed this before, but I posted the OTHER letter once in its entirety. As to the previous discussions, I clicked one up to the top. As to the OTHER letter, I can't find it. The OTHER letter was the one where lcm sent it to EVERYONE-not just the staff- and said they were firing everyone. As it turned out, he made specific allegations against the people he was firing-that they didn't love Christ, that they worked for greed- and yet people in different states all got the SAME letter where only the NAMES were changed. ALL the people had EXACTLY the same issues? No, lcm felt like making a blanket accusation, so he did. I'm confident he was personally unfamiliar with most of the people he was accusing. I'll have to dig out the old letter and repost it.

Clicking this thread to the top, since it's being discussed...

Out There said

Well, this is old stuff. However, I can save you the trouble of sitting thru their series. :D Matthew 1:1-16 covers part of the Christ-line. It names only a few women, who are the subject of "this" study. Matthew 1:3 mentions Tamar Matthew 1:5 mentions Rahab Matthew 1:5 mentions Ruth Matthew 1:16 mentions Mary So, this is a study in 4 parts-one for each woman.

"Gitarzan: the Motion Picture".

It's tough with fewer players. I'm thinking Sharon, Belle or Steve! might have gotten it off the first post. The answer was "Solid Rock" by Dire Straits. Their most recognizable commercial hit was "Money for Nothing" and their best-known song among rock rans is probably "Sultans of Swing", not "Solid Rock." ========== Ok, here's one more the speed of the current players. "I'm a-walkin' in the rain, Tears are fallin' and I feel the pain, Wishin' you were here by me, To end this misery"

Friday, November 22, 1963 =========== Ssshh. I can hear you- no need to yell. I think you missed my point. There were at least as many things NOT in common as IN common. The lists are in the minds of the readers.

pg-240. ======== "Along the slender black-top road and across the bridge in the distance, a dozen figures clothed in navy sweatsuits are running towards us. Doctor slows the car down, laughing and smiling. "That's my Corps," he says affectionately. "They're my kids." [You have ownership papers for those students? Don't answer that-maybe you DO.] ===== pg-251, Dr Spencer from West Virginia is speaking. "...We learned in medical school that a fear of death is a symptom of cardiac condition...." Me, I'd like to know where he went to school, and who taught that. I know medicine has not so completely advanced since, say, med school in the 50s or 60s that they taught that fear of death is a symptom of a bad heart. That belongs more to the "bleed him with leeches" era-or at least the Freud "everything is scientific" era, in the 19th century. Fear of death is a symptom of having brushed death-either thru personal experience or thru the death or near-death of a loved one. I don't even have to go to medical school to learn that. (I'll just stick with my "Doctorate of Theology", thankyouverymuch. ;) Now, this educated MD talks about witnessing, and he talks about how he used to be a "hunter" of men-describing how people ambush a deer with both barrels from a concealed position (which would make him a SNIPER of men, but I digress.) He then says "But I've been seeing more and more what the Word says: You've got to be a fisher of men, like Peter. Every fish is different. You put out the bait, and it's different for different fish. You put it out, and our bait is the best. You dangle it here, tease it a little, get the hunger up. Then when you get a fish on the line, you pull it in. Some you play with. Some get away from you, but they keep coming back, and you just gotta keep the bait there all the time." Interesting analogy. AND COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. Peter was not a hook-and-line fisherman, Peter was a NET fisherman. "I will let down the net." The analogy is completely different. A net fisherman casts the net out broadly over the area, then he draws the net out of the water, and whatever is in the net is in the net. Jesus wanted THAT kind of guy, not a line fisherman, AND NOT A HUNTER OR SNIPER. When the sower went forth to sow, he sowed everywhere, and some grew and flourished. He did not study out the area, and bury one seed HERE and one seed THERE. Dr S completely misunderstood Peter's job AND the lesson it teaches us. Then again, even that early, twi was beginning to practice early hints of elitism.....

pg-240. ======== "Along the slender black-top road and across the bridge in the distance, a dozen figures clothed in navy sweatsuits are running towards us. Doctor slows the car down, laughing and smiling. "That's my Corps," he says affectionately. "They're my kids." ===== pg-251, Dr Spencer from West Virginia is speaking. "...We learned in medical school that a fear of death is a symptom of cardiac condition...." Me, I'd like to know where he went to school, and who taught that. I know medicine has not so completely advanced since, say, med school in the 50s or 60s that they taught that fear of death is a symptom of a bad heart. That belongs more to the "bleed him with leeches" era-or at least the Freud "everything is scientific" era, in the 19th century. Fear of death is a symptom of having brushed death-either thru personal experience or thru the death or near-death of a loved one. I don't even have to go to medical school to learn that. (I'll just stick with my Doctorate of Theology, thankyouverymuch. Now, this educated MD talks about witnessing, and he talks about how he used to be a "hunter" of men-describing how people ambush a deer with both barrels from a concealed position (which would make him a SNIPER of men, but I digress.) He then says "But I've been seeing more and more what the Word says: You've got to be a fisher of men, like Peter. Every fish is different. You put out the bait, and it's different for different fish. You put it out, and our bait is the best. You dangle it here, tease it a little, get the hunger up. Then when you get a fish on the line, you pull it in. Some you play with. Some get away from you, but they keep coming back, and you just gotta keep the bait there all the time." Interesting analogy. AND COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. Peter was not a hook-and-line fisherman, Peter was a NET fisherman. "I will let down the net." The analogy is completely different. A net fisherman casts the net out broadly over the area, then he draws the net out of the water, and whatever is in the net is in the net. Jesus wanted THAT kind of guy, not a line fisherman, AND NOT A HUNTER OR SNIPER. When the sower went forth to sow, he sowed everywhere, and some grew and flourished. He did not study out the area, and bury one seed HERE and one seed THERE. Dr S completely misunderstood Peter's job AND the lesson it teaches us. Then again, even that early, twi was beginning to practice early hints of elitism..... Now then, in the middle of the book is a set of pictures. Most are pretty typical. There's a shot of the traditional birthday dunk-in-the-river "God's blessings on you-SPLASH!", and there's a photo of vpw on the film set of pfal. You can recognize the set, you can recognize the suit, there's the sign saying "power for abundant living" on the desk. vpw's not actively filming in this shot. There's a person in the foreground getting ready to cue the cameraman to begin his countdown-you can see him ready to start the count. vpw is holding up a Bible and looking forward. I don't remember him holding up a Bible at the start of any segment. Plus, he's holding it a little close to comfortably read from. It looks like he's holding it up for the photo snapshot. I also note the light levels. Despite the stage lights, he knows someone is getting ready so snap a picture, and they're standing next to the cameraman. He can see the cue-guy. So, he's looking towards lights that aren't blinding. STAGE lighting blinds you to anything in its direction. If he was using the lighting at STAGE level-which is not as bright as he claimed the lights were during filming-then the entire crew could have slipped away with the camera, and, if they were silent, he'd be waiting for the signal to begin. You can see NOTHING at that light level. (Yes, I've been on stage, and seen the audience vanish as I stepped into the light.) Furthermore, the man giving the cue, and the cameraman, can be seen in silhouette, since they're seen blocking the light to the "studio". If the light really WAS at blinding level, we'd be able to see the pattern of the guys' shirts, and their facial features. The next shot, in fact, shows how tight the formation was..... it shows the side with the cameraman.....but there's no bank of BLINDING LIGHTS lined up in a row like STAGE LIGHTS. Are they all stacked up in the one non-visible corner, out of sight? If so, that's a STUPID place to put ALL the lights. You'd put them CENTRAL in some way. So, unless someone's wheeling in a foldaway LIGHTHOUSE BEACON, the lights were NOT nearly as bright as he claimed. I'm also curious just how lousy this film material supposedly was. The old, old black-and-white turn-of-the century films filmed outdoors to use sunlight. According to vpw, the stage had lights far in excess of that. Car headlights are 18,000 candlepower. They are bright enough to make that studio REALLY bright-brighter than in the photo. Yet, they are not PAINFUL to have shined at you. Am I the only one skeptical of this story? Perhaps he got sore eyes from the filming. I could buy that. But "lose my sight" bright? And he was STUPID ENOUGH to film 2-3 more days when Day One swelled his eyes SHUT and the Dr said he'd be blinded for LIFE? Was he that stupid, or does he think WE are? (No, that was not a rhetorical question.)

Something to think about. Have a history teacher explain this...if they can [No need, Snopes already explained this. ] Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846. John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946. Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860. John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960. [ Technically true-but ignores that their political careers were completely different other than that. Lincoln had many setbacks, and Kennedy went like a rocket.] Both were particularly concerned with civil rights. [ No they weren't. Lincoln was concerned with divisiveness in the United States. This forced him to address slavery, but he would have found it acceptable to maintain slavery if it preserved the Union, allowing it to die slowly like twi. Kennedy was slow to move on civil rights legislation. He did so when events required a response.] Both wives lost their children while living in the White House. [ The Lincolns lost 2 children-one while Lincoln was President. The Kennedys lost one child while JFK was President. The Lincolns had 4 boys-one lived to adulthood. The Kennedys had 2 boys, one girl-two lived to adulthood.] Both Presidents were shot on a Friday. [ Assassination attempts are made during public events. Public events happen more often on weekend appearances. The odds of either to be shot on Friday (as opposed to Sat or Sun) approach 1 in 3. The odds of both to be shot on Friday approach 1 in 9.] Both Presidents were shot in the head. [ Assassination attempts use head or torso shots. Thus a head-shot is EXPECTED. ] Now it gets really weird. Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy. Kennedy's Secretary was named Lincoln. [Lincoln did NOT have a secretary named Kennedy.] Both were assassinated by Southerners. [ If you divide into "Northerner" and "Southerner", the odds were 1 in 4 for that, discounting that they-being Northerners-would be less likely to be shot by other Northerners.] Both were succeeded by Southerners named Johnson. [ Both Presidents were Northerners-thus they needed Southern running-mates to draw votes. Do you know how common the name "Johnson" is? Flip thru a phonebook.] Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808. Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908. [ Let's not "cherrypick" the similarities and ignore the differences. One was from NC, the other from Tx. One supported slavery, the other championed civil rights. One was never elected President, the other won the Presidency by THE landslide. One was impeached, the other wasn't. One became President at the end of a war, the other became President at the beginning of a war.] John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln, was born in 1839. Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born in 1939. [ Booth was born in 1838, not 1839. ] Both assassins were known by their three names. [ Not until after their deaths. ] Both names are composed of fifteen letters. [ Neither first, middle nor last names have the same number of letters. Abraham Lincoln and John Fitzgerald Kennedy do not have the same number of letters. Andrew Johnson and Lyndon Baines Johnson do not have the same number of letters. ] Now hang on to your seat. [ Not impressed yet.] Lincoln was shot at the theater named 'Ford.' Kennedy was shot in a car called 'Lincoln' made by 'Ford.' [ Lincoln was shot indoors, Kennedy was shot outdoors. A number of Presidents who WEREN'T assassinated rode in Presidential Lincoln limosines.] Lincoln was shot in a theater and his assassin ran and hid in a warehouse. Kennedy was shot from a warehouse and his assassin ran and hid in a theater. [ Booth shot Lincoln in a playhouse (theater). He was trapped and killed in a tobacco shed days later. Oswald shot Kennedy FROM (not IN) a textbook warehouse/book depository, and was taken in a movie house ("theater") about an hour later. ] Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials. [ Depends on how one defines "assassinated". ] And here's the kicker... A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe, Maryland A week before Kennedy was shot, he was with Marilyn Monroe. [ Marilyn Monroe died well over a year before Kennedy's assassination.] Creepy huh? :unsure: :unsure: [ NO.] http://www.snopes.com/history/american/linckenn.htm You will want to take 6 months and read the entire Snopes site.

Hm. I'm surprised this song hasn't been gotten. I'll give it the rest of the day, then flip over the name and post a different song. I really want to give a fair chance for this one without stopping the thread entirely. As it is, I'm fighting the urge to bang my head against a stone. Which would hurt, since it's not hollow. (Neither my head nor the stone would be hollow.) Besides, I can pass on getting a concussion- a major enough one would put my life in extreme danger. Plus I'd be unconscious and unable to post the answer.

Zshot: "Let's look at the wow program a little more.... 1. after this so called training at the ROA, we were sent to find and meet our "new wow family". I want to know how in the F*** was the decision made as to who was with whom?!?!?!?! 2. I also want to know on how they decided who was going where? I understand that twi had it own interest in where they wanted to send bodies. However, these bodies were people! It seems they didn't care about the people when it came down to assigning locations." =================== See, Zshot, this is one reason I like to review old threads from time to time. I KNEW I'd seen the answer to this one SOMEWHERE. LINDYHOPPER posted it. === He was discussing a corps couple that needed relocation... "Funny story. We are in the corp relo tent or something and we are discussing with the Rev Ander* on where they can go. It came down to either Dallas, Tx as BC as they were before in FL or twig coor. in the town I was now in. The rev was our elder corps while we were in residence. So we were down. Well he goes to talk things over or go abroad or something and it was taking him a while to get back with us. Meanwhile, we are standing waiting and talking about their options when one Rev. J Rumproast came over and asked us if he could help. They told him their deal and how they couldn't decide what would be best. So, he pulls out a coin and says "This is how we do it in the back...'Heads, it's Dallas, tails it's B-more.' He smiles as though he is kind of joking but totally serious as though he had been inspired by God to do this. It was heads! Praise the Lord! Right about the time everyone is shaking hands and saying our goodbyes to Rev Rump the Rev. Ander-son-of-a comes walking back in. He is p!$$ed...." ============ So, seems at least ONE method of deciding who goes where was evident. =================== We have seen a number of accounts of people who WENT wow or interim corps and at least one person in their "wow family" was a tipped turbolaser who ruined the entire "wow family" because they were unable or unwilling to function in the program as told, even after someone took them aside and explained things. Everything I saw about the program said that anyone who walked up would be accepted unless they set fire to the Big Top or something. If the wows went out on Saturday morning, you had until WEDNESDAY MORNING to decide to go. I think it's ridiculous to believe that there was a degree of quality control when they were ready to accept ANYONE who walked in, and sent them out after 3 days of possible observation and teachings. So, I have a new question of my own: Does ANYONE know of ANY person , EVER, who was REFUSED entry into the wow program for reasons OTHER than not having their money ready? Did the management of the program EVER exercise Quality Control and say "you lack sufficient experience" or "you lack emotional stability" or "you do not have a mind to work" or "you lack trustworthiness" or any other legit reason to not send someone into a small cell that relied on the performance of each cell member? I'd LOVE to hear ANY details of ANY time that happened.

=============== =============== pg-237. ========== "But you get tired. The other night I was so tired I couldn't even find the books of the Bible. When you work so hard, everyone loves you;" [ What was he working so hard at when reading the Bible? According to what he was JUST saying, he was implying the youngsters were lazy when they wanted to study the Bible rather than do manual labour. (And wasn't the Bible-studying why they were there?) So, when a youngster does it, it's laziness. When vpw does it, it is hard work that makes you tired. Nice double-standard.] " but when you get right down to it, it's you and God to handle that Word, and you have to make it live with the renewed mind. That's what's really important. And other of life's tinsel just doesn't count against the greatness of the Word of God." "This is the greatest loving ministry in the world-and the most lonesome walk. I suppose it's like being an athlete. In football, there are eleven, in basketball, five; but when you teach, it's just you and Daddy." ["This is the greatest loving ministry in the world". Here's ANOTHER one of the "best in the world" claims vpw made a LOT. Further, this ministry relied on rules over "loving", even then. "House of Acts" was a loving ministry. Also, if any ministry is a "lonesome walk", then the people in charge are failing to run it correctly. It's supposed to be a FAMILY thing, that means it's groups, not a "lonesome walk". A "lonesome walk" is a cowboy or other "tough guy" who wants to show how tough he is. It's a uniquely American form of error. Europeans like the Vikings had sayings like "bare is the back that has no brother", and they were considered pretty tough. So, vpw is exhausted from reading his Bible, and he's some sort of maverick. At least, that's what he wants us to believe. Didn't hw JUST finish complaining about ego and appearances?] "Lots of people love you for the Word you teach, but when it comes right down to it, it's just you. You stand and you walk. You teach what they can take. And sometimes you know a whole lot more. Things you could open your heart on, you never do, to those depths of perception. You go so far. You know the abundance available and the Father says, 'That's all folks! End of show.' nd it's something you cannot describe to people. Just you and Father know." ==== Man, I can't hear the sounds of the violin music over the earth shaking there... ========== ==========

pg-237. ========== "But you get tired. The other night I was so tired I couldn't even find the books of the Bible. When you work so hard, everyone loves you; but when you get right down to it, it's you and God to handle that Word, and you have to make it live with the renewed mind. That's what's really important. And other of life's tinsel just doesn't count against the greatness of the Word of God. This is the greatest loving ministry in the world-and the most lonesome walk. I suppose it's like being an athlete. In football, there are eleven, in basketball, five; but when you teach, it's just you and Daddy. Lots of people love you for the Word you teach, but when it comes right down to it, it's just you. You stand and you walk. You teach what they can take. And sometimes you know a whole lot more. Things you could open your heart on, you never do, to those depths of perception. You go so far. You know the abundance available and the Father says, 'That's all folks! End of show.' And it's something you cannot describe to people. Just you and Father know." ==== Man, I can't hear the sounds of the violin music over the earth shaking there...

I'm a bit surprised no one's gotten this yet. It's hardly an unknown or obscure song. I'll give it another shot.... ===== "Well, now, take a look at that- I made a castle in the sand, Saying 'This is where it's at', you, Couldn't understand how, If I realized that my chances were slim, How come I'm so surprised when the tide rolled in" ====== "Well, I'm sick of potential I'm sick of vanity now I'm sticking to essential reality now I don't know what's worse Try to make a silk purse Living an illusion in confusion" ======== "Well, a house of cards Was never built for shock You could blow it down in any kind of weather" === "The heart that you break, that's the one that you rely on. The bed that YOU make, that's the one you gotta lie on. When you point your finger 'cause your plan fell thru You got three more fingers pointing back at you"

How does one get his new CD's? (Please pm me if this is a secret or something.)

================== Amazing what vpw "allows" to happen. pg-237, we hear "The Ambassadors is a similar program to develop leaders, faithful men, people with committment right out on the field." [Again, a man with no background or training in 'leadership programs' runs another program. However, this time, he hits upon the key that makes this work in spite of his inadequacies...] "It's like Jesus said, 'The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few.' Well, we're allowing real labourers to develop. It's beautiful." [ Bingo. That was the key. vpw was not qualified to do ANYTHING to develop leaders. So, how does this succeed? He does NOTHING. People volunteer to serve God for one year, and pay VPW for the privilege. vpw then tells them, "ok, the 4 of you go here for a year", and then does NOTHING, and they either SINK or SWIM based on their own determination, prayer, and the situations. Those that grew, grew. Those that didn't, did not blame the "program" that didn't actually TEACH anything. It was quite a financial windfall, too. Like he charged the corps and used them as manual labour and free groundskeeping, the wows were charged to be wows, which meant a onetime bonus for twi. Then they were "relocated"-no, they were told where to go, and they were told to find a way to get there. That's why wows were organized around which ones had CARS. Cost to the ministry: $0. They then had to work fulltime and support themselves on the field for the year. Cost to the ministry: $0. THEN they ran twigs and pfal classes. The twigs were expected to have members tithe 10% of their income. Cost to the ministry: $0. Benefit? 10%. The pfal classes were run, adding members and adding grads. Cost to the ministry? Loaning the class materials-film, whatever. Benefit to the ministry? The price for each student, plus buying replacement books from time to time.... All for doing NOTHING and "allowing" them to develop. Heartless, without conscience-but profitable.] Now comes the AD portion of tonight's show. "God said He'd teach me His Word like it hadn't been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. And that's how I think: How can we teach it to others, make it live?" Doctor shakes his head, his face cast in seriousness. "Yes, the day God made me this promise was the greatest day in my life, that day and the day I received the holy spirit because they were both centers of reference for my learning truth and error. You have to have a center of reference outside of yourself to learn. And no matter who you talk to, you always learn. Those two encounters with Him are as real to me today as my talking with you right now." ======== I honestly believe vpw had talked himself into believing his story by this time-that, in telling it to so many people, he bought into his own lie.

Amazing what vpw "allows" to happen. pg-237, we hear "The Ambassadors is a similar program to develop leaders, faithful men, people with committment right out on the field. It's like Jesus said, 'The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few.' Well, we're allowing real labourers to develop. It's beautiful." Now comes the AD portion of tonight's show. "God said He'd teach me His Word like it hadn't been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. And that's how I think: How can we teach it to others, make it live?" Doctor shakes his head, his face cast in seriousness. "Yes, the day God made me this promise was the greatest day in my life, that day and the day I received the holy spirit because they were both centers of reference for my learning truth and error. You have to have a center of reference outside of yourself to learn. And no matter who you talk to, you always learn. Those two encounters with Him are as real to me today as my talking with you right now."

If I were to go out on a limb, here... I'd say his fixation with pumping up his own image and making himself look like he never misses, is tied into the same reasons the program was not redesigned and retooled after having been unsufficiently prepared, and simply rerun as if it hadn't failed during its trial run. vpw refused to accept that setting up such a program required skills he didn't have. vpw refused to accept that a failure of a program meant a problem with the program. vpw refused to look at the structure and say "there have to be better ways to do this." All of that was because vpw was supposedly an expert on everything, and refused to admit his gaping deficiencies in setting up and running such a program. So he blamed the people he "set up".

"Acts 29" and "Ready for Anything" were soft rock."It's Hot" and "God First" were hard rock. "Breakthrough" was soft rock. "A Thought Away" was medium rock. We discussed that a while back when someone asked for the lyrics to his spoof of "Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Cowboys". Seems he doesn't perform songs off that album anymore. This makes sense, as my guess was that he wanted to distance himself from his own personal list of "stupid things I did in twi". (I know I do.) I do wonder if he performs stuff off "A Fistful of Scriptures", however.