WordWolf

Bravo. A gold star for each of them. Twinkies for everyone! I'd say a lot of wow's enjoyed the experience. I'd also say a lot of wow's DIDN'T enjoy the experience. See, sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't. When it worked it was great, when it didn't, it could be disastrous for the people. Few posters here will disparage the great times some HERE have said they had. HOWEVER, the great times were far from universal. What happened when they DIDN'T happen, and why they only appeared PART of the time, are grist for conversation, discussion, analysis, and outright denial here. Look closer. Some of us have had GREAT experiences, and SAID SO. HOWEVER, some people's lives were also ruined. They said so ALSO. Those who had great blessings warmed themselves at a fire that they did not build, and the fuel for the fire, too often, were the lives ruined by "leadership". When viewing stories of the good and bad TOGETHER, it looks more negative than an unrelenting list of good news. Duh. In twi, it was verboten to even begin discussing their failures, EVER. Some messageboards FORBID discussion that may suggest that one side does not have the be-all and end-all of wisdom and knowledge. Those also may seem more cheerful than here. Supressing much of the truth as they do, they have all the personality of Howdy Doody or Topo Gigio. Life is not a 50's sitcom. Twi is not a 50's sitcom, and never was. (Not from lack of trying...)

Hi there. Those of you who tuned in and liked "The Way:Living in Wonderland" may like this thread. That one looked at the book "the Way:Living in Love" and the picture of Wonderland that it presented. This thread will look at the book by lcm, titled "VP and Me." Since my approach will be similar, I labelled this thread accordingly. Now, then, this book was never released, not even to twi members. The only "circulation" extant is the notes taken on this book by people who were required to sit thru a "class" of its contents. Therefore, we lack an ability to go over it line-by-line. Thus, this can't be an "official" analysis of the book itself. However, what we do have is a pretty complete set of notes, from here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/corp.../vp-and-me.html ==== The setup and structure of the book and its presentation are already listed there, so I won't repeat them here. I WILL, however, quote some highlights from the book before discussing, same as we did with the other thread. Remembering that this book contains reminiscences of lcm, and thus how lcm remembers things, I think it can be another useful tool in viewing vpw AND lcm. (So long as we remember that.) ================= "Most of the incidents were not written down at the time of occurrencs in diaries. etc. The book was written mainly from recollection." 1970-1971. ========= "The first time that LCM saw Dr. was when he was a senior at the University of Kansas. LCM went to twig first and found the teaching to be tremendous (electrifying). Donny Fugit taught. On Dec 8th 1970, Dr. Wierwille came to Laurence, Kansas to the fraternity house of Joe C**lt*r to teach twi. LCM immediately recognized him as a 'great man.' "LCM wanted to be right. Wanted to be convinced. The next time LCM saw Dr was in Witchita, Kansas when he visited with Cl**d*tt** R*y*l. When he was first introduced to Dr Wierwille, Dr said to him 'Hello-Well I have to go and eat this piece of cake.' Dr W would meet with all the believers from each city at a time in a room in the basement. All the Limb was there, but he'd meet with everyone branch by branch. Dr asked for help whenever he needed it. He asked Donny Fugit a question about something. LCM was very impressed and shocked that so great a man would ask for help in front of others. One day LCM received a copy of a letter that had been sent to his home address (he was on a job elsewhere at the time.) The letter had been in response to his letter about coming into the Way Corps. It was a couple of weeks old! Across the top of the copy was written "Either call Dr. Wierwille or forget it!"- Howard Allen. LCM ran to the phone and called Dr Wierwille. Dr asked him if he would come to summer school to see how he shaped up for acceptance into the corps. LCM said he'd be there with all his money together, etc. LCM had always planned on going into the Christian ministry with his church. but after taking PFAL, he realized that he and his denomination no longer saw eye to eye on issues. He wanted now to go Corps!" June 1971: Heading to HQ. ============ "LCM showed up without all of his money together for summer school." "After the service LCM went to Dr at the advice of Mrs Owens, and informed him that he did not have all of his money together for summer school. Dr looked at him and then said 'You can stay as long as your money holds!' LCM really looked upon this as grace upon grace and resolved never to go behind in his financial responsibilities. If he ever went a day behind, he decided, he would leave." "LCM was stunned to see Dr. mowing the lawn at HQ. HE was in his shorts! Surely a man of God as important as Dr. should not have to do menial work like this. He should be inside studying the Word!" "That summer Dr taught the 'Athletes of the Spirit' analogy for the first time." Fall of 1971. ========== "Start of Corps training. 'Welcome home son!' Dr says to LCM after he gets back from a trip to Oklahoma to see his folks. It was right then that LCM realized and decided that HQ was now his home. The very first corps night that LCM was ever at, Dr. showed everyone how to manage a 3 x 5 card file to help keep track of people's names, etc. LCM had expected a big heavy teaching and was amazed once again at the stuff that Dr came up with, the practicality of it." [A few months later] "Dr asked him while driving would he like to be the WOW coordinator He said 'Sure' (gulp)." "Commissioned the second wave of WOWs that year. LCM, now the coordinator, was asked if he wanted to have breakfast for the WOWs before they left to go on the field. Not being a morning-breakfast-type of person, and thinking that the ministry could save some money instead, he choose to not have breakfast prepared for the departing WOWs that day. The WOWs left before 7am that day with no food. When Dr heard that he was very hurt. He asked at lunch who had made the decision to send the WOWs away on an empty stomach. LCM put up his hand and admitted it was he. The learning he got was that finances are not the sole variable in moving the Word. There are times to spend and times not to spend. Being frugal is not the same as being stingy!" ======= Next time we'll resume with "Location-South Trustee Office. LCM's 1st year in the Way Corps."

Thanks. In all honesty, it was inspired by something Goey said (which I built on.)

The last time we discussed it was here... http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...wtopic=7353&hl=

And then the NEXT time the discussion comes up, he's surprised all over again that anyone's claimed there were problems... If he was on medication, this would be understandable, and compassion on our part would be called-for. This would mean he was biologically UNABLE to retain the information in his memory due to biochemical imbalance, or biological deficiency. Since this is not the case, I just take it at face value. No point in making much of a fuss over it, hoping to fix it. See, that's where you differ. As new information came in, you changed your mind. Most of the new posters do that within months of their arrivals.

It's a fourth-degree misdemeanor. I posted the citation from Ohio's laws. And they lost in court over that. I posted the verdict's link. I can answer this one before he even logs back in. If they reported it, it was "severe", thus, worthy to be reported. If they did not report it, it was not "severe", thus, unworthy of being reported. He will NOT get into specifics on them, because then he might get in the position of saying they should have reported a rapist, molestor, murderer,etc, rather than focusing on covering their OWN tracks. So, you can save the energy. OM will NEVER change positions on that, and you'll just waste time and energy trying to reason it with him.

"The Mask of Zorro". I was thinking of using that EXACT same quote. :D

I'll simplify this discussion slightly. "I am Agedsperson! When 80% of the ministry left in 1989, I stayed. I stayed thru the slow death spiral of the early 1990s, and left when the 2nd half of the 1990s introduced even WORSE policies. I never SAW any wrongdoing, and I never DID any wrongdoing! Therefore, everything I did was correct. Those whose actions were different, by definition, did NOT do the correct thing. Since I left in the late 1990s, that was the correct time to leave. Those who left later stayed too late, those who left before stayed too early. Those who stayed when I left were blind, those who left sooner were contentious. I stayed in 1989, therefore anyone who left in 1989 was wrong to do so. Period." ======== Clear enough for almost everyone? All right- now let's have coffee and cake in the music room!

'oldiesman'= ======== WOW, I hadn't read this thread up until now, and it's very interesting. Don't know if I ever posted this, but I was one of the runners who ran one of the 10 mile legs, from Rome City to Athens, carrying the torch. I think I also was the only non-corps person running. As I recall, this effort was coordinated by Bob Moynihan and all who ran received a bronze medallion. I had been training for this event for 6 months prior to make sure I'd be able to run 10 miles straight without stopping. The day before the start at Rome City, I develop this sharp pain in one of my legs. I start limping around and start getting very worried that I might not be able to run. While limping by the reception desk, a gal at the reception desk saw me limping, and I told her what was wrong. She immediately layed hands and prayed for me. The pain was gone. Next day, I ran the 10 miles with no problems. Day after that, my body ached all over, except that one part of my leg that was healed the day before! True story. Anyway, back to Craig, yeah he had to have the spotlight. Those of us who did the marathon ran 10 miles each, but all of a sudden when the torch is coming around the corner guess who's carrying it? Craig. Did he run 10 miles? No. Apparently Craig grabbed the torch a few yards back, and started running carrying the torch to the front with some others behind him. So here we are, each one running 10 miles busting our butts while we watch Craig grabbing the freakin torch running his few yards and getting all the attention like he's been running for miles. :lol: ========== You personally saw this, and you STILL say lcm wasn't all about himself?

'oldiesman'= "Of course it depends on the severity of the crime" [This has already been adequately addressed by other posters.] "but it may also be that they don't want to rat on a brother/sister in Christ if they don't have to." [And I don't want to pay payroll tax, but it's the law and I do it.] [ All states have similar legislation. Hq is in Ohio and is under the Federal and State laws governing Ohio. Ohio Revised Code section 2921.22 states: " (A) No person, knowing that a felony has been or is being committed, shall knowingly fail to report such information to law enforcement authorities. (B) Whoever violates division (A) of (B) of this section is guilty of 'failure to report a crime'. Violation of division (A) of this section is a misdemeanor of the fourth degree." ] "But kicking them out immediately is strong punishment, and better than keeping them in, wouldn't you say?" [Trick question. The proper response upon a religious organization's discovery that a member or employee has committed a crime, is to report that individual to the local legal authorities. Period. Kicking the person out is independent of the MORAL responsibility to protect the community, and the LEGAL responsibility to report a criminal. Here's an example of how Ohio law views this sort of thing... http://www.cleveland.com/abuse/index.ssf?/...1185150122.html This legal response -requiring reporting of a crime- predates the founding of the United States and has its roots in "raising a hue and cry" back in the Dark Ages of Europe. ]

So how IS Jeff doing these days?

Here's a quote I think relates in a way. Martin Niemoeller said: "First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a communist. Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me- and there was no one left to speak out for me."

lcm seems to have DISAGREED with you on this one, Oldiesman. You SUPPOSED that's what he was thinking. "Out There" PHONED him and spoke to him PERSONALLY on this. ====== "Out There": "When I received the Loyalty letter in the mail I immediately called LCM and by some miracle after leaving a message he actually called me back. When I asked if this letter was a call to blindly follow him he said I had been doing this all along. I then told him thats what he thinks he could 'kiss my foot'. I think I was dropped from the rolls of the Way Corps that next morning." ===== Therefore, lcm was WELL AWARE he was calling for blind, unquestioning loyalty to HIM, and thought that blind, unquestioning loyalty was his DUE.

Clarifying our terms to avoid confusion is a necessary step if we are to increase in understanding. Therefore, making sure we mean EXACTLY the same thing with our terms is necessary. It aids understanding and retards "weasel-wording", where someone keeps changing the meaning in an attempt to dominate the discussion. ====== BTW, I didn't do my own research there-that was quoted from further up the page, from a poster who DID do his own research. ==== A healthy skepticism to any man's position is good. It means we then look for ourselves and see if he's right or not. This is especially true if previous examinations have shown him to have a low batting average on his signature doctrines. Therefore, a calm, reasoned approach is superior to an "I love him" approach, just as it's superior to an "I hate him" approach. ===== Finally, Mark quoted his source for his "research", WTH did not, but insisted we do our own. What's your source, WTH? Did YOU do your own?

'oldiesman': I beg to differ. I validate the letter on its own, without needing support from the events that followed. [No, you're operating with PARTIAL information, and that out of choice. ] But when I look at those events, they were godly. Folks left who believed Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, or at least not "standing on the word", which got the folks who were unhappy and malcontented, out. [Partially true. This did not mean those who stayed were clueless about the ERROR practiced at hq. They just had LESS evidence, or had more reason to stay-like the famous "they thought they could fix things from within." ] There was, among other things, lots of peace in the fellowships that remained. No more arguing about Craig and the BOT being off the wall. [ The fellowships that remained varied widely. Those in NYC were FINE for the most part because NYC twi'ers as individuals were stubborn individuals who were slow to bend their neck or scratch gravel for ANYBODY. That puts them as high on the list to escape when someone demands BLIND loy-alty. Further, the twiglets took their cues from the twig coordinators. The twig coordinators took their cues from the branch coordinators. The branch coordinators took their cues from the territory coordinators. The territory coordinators took their cues from the Limb coordinator. The Limb coordinator of NY state at that time was VF. VF was on some people's short-list for vpw's successor. He was better suited to running things nationally than lcm, and had experience running twi stuff. Therefore, he was more than capable of keeping the state intact, which he did. Locals didn't hear there WERE problems because we were insulated from it- because higher-ups didn't pass that along. Nobody below Territory Coordinator knew. So, branch coordinators smiled and said everything was fine-so the twig coordinators did the same, which is why you had no idea there were problems 1985-1989. However, there WAS information there-to which you lacked access. Some had access. When I heard there were problems, I naively thought they could be fixed, and VF might go work things out and help restore balance to lcm. I even said so. The very next piece of news from lcm was "I'm firing VF and every other staff member in NY state for being evil." So, every staff member in NY state seceeded-since they were already kicked out- but they remained in contact with each other-which makes sense unless you're an idiot. ] Twigs were loving full of peace unity, and no legalism. [ Because they were maintained at the state, city, and neighborhood levels, there was some love and peace LOCALLY. This being twi, there was LESS legalism, but there was still legalism.] PFAL classes were still being run and the word was moving. [ Locally, things moved along because locally we knew what we were doing. Locally, that's always been the case. ] There was still a WOW program where the word was moving. [ I question the success of the wow program, for several reasons. At best, it was a mixed bag. Furthermore, you know NOTHING about what it was like on the field in 1989. lcm forced the issue with 1/4 of the wows. lcm kicked people off the field all over the place in 1989. So wows were STRANDED in the field as a direct result of lcm stripping them of leadership and part of their "families." In several cases, the wows notified hq that they were now stuck as a result-for rent and so on, which they were paying. HQ said-in one case I'm aware of-and I expect this was true for many I am NOT aware of-that they would help for THIS month but they were smoked for next month. WHEN THE PROMISED HELP FROM TWI DID NOT ARRIVE- which was the result of needs generated by twi kicking wows off the field- the wows were then forced to turn to rank-and-file believers to provide the assistance twi PROMISED to provide and was morally responsible TO provide. Since one believer who was contacted said "Well, I haven't sent in my tithe for this month yet, so I can send it to you", the wows I'm aware of were not EVICTED, which would have been the result of lcm's decision and twi's failure to live up to a direct promise. Ever see a wow get his pin and REFUSE TO SHAKE lcm's hand? Someone got a snapshot.... That was lcm's "contribution" to the wow field.] Some folks were even returning, who had left in 1989. I would estimate a window of about 5 years (1989-1994) when the word was moving. I'm not saying everything was perfect, but it certainly wasn't tyrannical, at least where I was. Far from it. [Actually, the stage was already being set. Forget the wow program, the PFAL class-lcm was preparing to throw them out and replace them with something inferior because it had his name on it. And if a handful was returning, at least that many were STILL LEAVING. Of course, with so few NYC'ers LEFT, it's hard to see ANY people arriving as anything less than a huge jump. ] I was a twig coordinator too from around the end of 1989 to end of 1990 and I know there was no legalism. [ Not local to you, no. Didn't you find it odd when lcm sent a letter saying "I'm firing VF and Li*** Ma***, your local overseer, because he's corrupt?" You'd met LM, correct? Didn't you know he was the real deal? ] I can't speak for others involvement during that time, but my time right after 1989 up until I stopped going to twig was pleasant and the word was moving. [ Oh, wait- you're one of the guys who stayed and were promoted to "top local guy" after everyone with a lick of training left. That explains a lot.... If I'd stayed, you might have been taking orders from me within a few years.... But after around 1993-94, was when I think the present day false doctrines started about the excessive legalism, prying into peoples lives, mandatory ABS, genuine spiritual suspicion, word already over the world, closed ministry, homo purge, excessive meanness, so on and so forth. [ Wrong. When lcm fired all the staff across NY state, the Father Son and Holy Ghost caught the last train to the coast. 4 out of every 5 Joe Believers walked. All the Territory and Branch coordinators walked. Almost all the Advanced class grads walked. ALL the corps grads walked. That was statewide-citywide, the numbers were even higher in NYC. The Bronx was a Territory before lcm drew his line in the sand- it became a SMALL twig AFTER the line. Manhattan-the same. I'm not aware of anyone I knew in BQSI who stayed, which to me is a sign that the majority of the other 3 boroughs walked as well. I know it's true NORTH of NYC, in Westchester County and Yonkers as well. ===== I do know a handful of people DID stay, for reasons which were there own. (I didn't speak to any of them face-to-face.) I AM aware that those whom I knew who stayed, they were among the "bottom-feeders" in skill and ability. As I said once before, if I had stayed, I would have been one of NYC's heavier hitters even then. That's not saying I was that good-that's saying those who remained were not up to scratch. All the quality people left, and a handful of the least-talented stayed. Doesn't say much for the discernment of the remainders. You've previously posted that there were some quality heavy-hitters who remained in NYC after the 1989 split. Once again, I call "shenanagans" on that. After 1989, the skill-levels would have to be recalibrated to measure at lower levels to consider stragglers as heavy-hitters. All the people lcm himself used to cite as important had left- wows, corps, Advanced class grads. After 1989, of course, he stopped saying this, since they weren't around.]

Pat Morita The Next Karate Kid Hilary Swank

Nuts. Belle beat me to it. Deleting my requote...

"Yeah, I have. However this is based upon yet another one of VPWs blunders with Greek. VPW taught that "saved" was translated from the Greek "sozo". Then he taught that sozo came from the Greek root word "zoe" meaning life in its fullest. He then relates that to "wholeness" . Then he fits that in with his formed, made & created / body, soul, and spirit theory. The final result being, saved means receiving the holy spirit and thus becoming body, soul and spirit once more ( the spirit being missing previously). So then according to VPW a person is saved/made whole when he/she receives the spirit. The problem with this is that sozo - (saved) DOES NOT come from the Greek "zoe" as VPW errantly taught. Sozo comes instead from the primary Greek "sos" a contraction for the obsolete obsolete saoz, "safe". VPW foisted the Greek and then forced a new meaning on sozo so that his definition of salvation would fit neatly in with body, soul, spirit. He also misunderstood why the King James translated sozo "made/make whole"in regards to physical healing. Salvation is from the Greek "soter" , which has a common root with sozo (saved). However neither of these Greek words is related to "zoe" or to wholeness. Wierwille was dead wrong in his definition of saved/salvation." ========= See, this is the type of problem that can crop up when you get your degree in "HOMILETICS" and then act as if you got it in Koine Greek or Bible languages or the like.

Martin Niemoeller: " First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a communist. Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out- because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me- and there was no one left to speak out for me."

Ok, it seems we've reached the end of the quotes for this book. Having read thru all this, and having discussed it, I'd like some general thoughts, possibly from those who haven't been posting every day (for variety). Do any old-timers from the 70s have any general conclusions on this subject-the book or its contents? What do the exits from the 90s and 00s have to say about all this?

Not only have we discussed this before, but I posted the OTHER letter once in its entirety. As to the previous discussions, I clicked one up to the top. As to the OTHER letter, I can't find it. The OTHER letter was the one where lcm sent it to EVERYONE-not just the staff- and said they were firing everyone. As it turned out, he made specific allegations against the people he was firing-that they didn't love Christ, that they worked for greed- and yet people in different states all got the SAME letter where only the NAMES were changed. ALL the people had EXACTLY the same issues? No, lcm felt like making a blanket accusation, so he did. I'm confident he was personally unfamiliar with most of the people he was accusing. I'll have to dig out the old letter and repost it.

Clicking this thread to the top, since it's being discussed...

Out There said

Well, this is old stuff. However, I can save you the trouble of sitting thru their series. :D Matthew 1:1-16 covers part of the Christ-line. It names only a few women, who are the subject of "this" study. Matthew 1:3 mentions Tamar Matthew 1:5 mentions Rahab Matthew 1:5 mentions Ruth Matthew 1:16 mentions Mary So, this is a study in 4 parts-one for each woman.