WordWolf

"WW, If you have the orange book you have the evidence." He said, still not posting this nebulous evidence. Me, when I say the Orange Book says something, I cite the page AND provide the quote. Otherwise, people would be justified in thinking I was making it up. And bald claim must be supported with evidence.

Actually, he's been claiming the existence of this mysterious "evidence" since 2003. He has time to spend page after page claiming it exists, but he still hasn't had time to post it. Myself, I recommended scaling back posting time and just posting when he can provide this mysterious "evidence"- going for QUALITY rather than QUANTITY- but so far Mike hasn't followed my advice, at least to the degree of posting this "evidence." So, we have about as much proof of this "evidence" so far as we do of the Loch Ness Monster. Furthermore, Mike keeps claiming that assigning homework is an effective tool around here. I keep telling him why it backfires so badly, but he keeps insisting it works. I don't expect him to change his position on this anytime in 2005 (or 2006). Mike's characterized something as "spoon-feeding". Everyone else would call it "presenting your case" or "defending your thesis" or "presenting your evidence". But to Mike, backing up his claims is some sort of distasteful task. Perhaps this is because it's something like the Emperor's tailors presenting their new Fall Fashion Line. Perhaps not-but we can't tell because he never presents it.

Previous discussions on this included one poster who went up and ASKED vpw why he chose lcm. vpw's response was that lcm was loyal, never argued with him, always followed orders. I felt this A) cut thru all the guesswork as to "did this come from God?" B) showed how shallow the selection process was. I mean, out of all the criteria he could have mentioned, that was the one least noble, imho.

Obvious in 20/20 hindsight, isn't it? Now, I bought this book and put it on a shelf. So, I have an excuse. This was the first time I've ever READ IT. Those of you who read it once and didn't run screaming THEN are having a VERY surreal experience NOW.

Technically "Naked Gun 2 1/2: the Smell of Fear", but yes, that's it. You got it just before I posted the long quote about the boxers. Your turn, Raf.

"Father showed me things that night. Some of them have come to pass, and others not yet." "You see, learning is a process. You don't learn overnight. The holy spirit field-that's the field God raised me up for. There's not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there's no one I can't lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it. No matter how much knowledge you have of God, God seldom allows you to teach more than people are able to receive. Some things God taught me that night in Tulsa, I've never taught- no one would have been able to receive them." Well, aren't WE special? pg-204. "When I came back from Tulsa, Mal George and his wife, Jan, were the first ones I led into receiving the holy spirit. They live in New Knoxville now, both of them teachers, have seven kids. They stood with the ministry over twenty years now, never wavered."

Well, that was my point. YOU think God is so very much bigger, NOW. So do I. Not only were many, many, MANY people convinced otherwise back when, now, after all vpw's crimes (or at least many of them) have been exposed, some people STILL make that kind of vapid claim. Frankly, it's the ridiculous presence of that kind of claim NOW that made me notice the connection. I still say vpw's big skill was in MARKETING. He relabelled a Christian experience and made it out to be a twi experience, AND charged money for it. As to why vpw didn't swear allegiance to Stiles, that's an easy one. Neither Stiles nor Leonard ever required allegiance to themselves or any organization. They were interested in blessing the greatest # of Christians possible in the time available. The "class allegiance" thing was something vpw insistituted to guarantee himself 'repeat customers'-selling them materials and classes, and later, giving 10% of their income.

Now, now, play nice on this thread.....

No, not a Sandler flick. No, neither a Sam Raimi flick nor a Bruce Campbell flick. "You do speak French don't you?" "Unfortunately no, but I do kiss that way." "Do you gamble?" "Every time I order out." "Have you noticed anything different about him?" "Well, only that he's a foot taller, and he seems to be left-handed now." "I'm single! I love being single! I haven't had this much sex since I was a Boy Scout leader! *room goes silent* "I mean, at the time I was dating a lot." "We welcome the representatives from the Society of Petroleum Industry Leaders-'SPIL', the Society for More Coal Energy-'SMOCE', and the Key Atomic Benefits Office of Mankind-'KABOoM'."

Nope.

No, neither a Sam Raimi flick nor a Bruce Campbell flick. "You do speak French don't you?" "Unfortunately no, but I do kiss that way." "Do you gamble?" "Every time I order out." "Have you noticed anything different about him?" "Well, only that he's a foot taller, and he seems to be left-handed now." "I'm single! I love being single! I haven't had this much sex since I was a Boy Scout leader! *room goes silent* "I mean, at the time I was dating a lot."

It would be fun. Did the authors specify it's public domain, or is it de facto protected by copyright?

"We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses. Also Luke 11:11, where it talks about fathers giving gifts to their children: If a child asked for bread, would the earthly father give him a stone? He just went over and over those things, used those verses in Luke hundreds of times to get that fear out of me. He just drove it home to me-God wouldn't give a lousy gift. We worked till 3pm. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn't know the language. It was like a burning light. It just cooked me on the inside. Such a flood came out. For the next half hour, Stiles had me speak and stop, just start and stop. Then he left. But I went on all night-speaking in tongues, praying in my understanding, reading from the Word. I was up all night, higher than a kite, I never ate. I couldn't sleep. I was so thrilled, so overjoyed and burning. And that has been the greatest night of my life. Father showed me things that night. Some of them have come to pass, and others not yet." ================ Skipping the last sentence-which was gratuituous-we have an interesting event. I have no difficulty believing this was EXACTLY what happened. vpw had demonstrated a "remedial" level of spiritual facility, so Stiles takes him from the very basics thru speaking in tongues. Stiles then makes sure the job is a thorough one, and that vpw is able to proceed without him. vpw is delighted and excited. So many Christians have felt on top of the world at that time. In fact, knowing how special and significant this is to Christians, it's obvious in hindsight why he tied so special an experience to his ORGANIZATION. This way, he was able to get people to connect the two events, and get them beholden to him. "Well, it was because of this class that I spoke in tongues, so without it I never would have spoken in tongues, because God is that small. Therefore, I owe the organization stuff and can come with excuses to turn a blind eye whenever they do wrong."

Templelady, please don't let crass people drag you into diverting the thread. We've been on-topic all the way until now, approximately.

Here it is from vpw himself again... "So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded, So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were all snowed in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out! Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the night. I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said, 'No, this is the first time.' "Doctor punctuates his story with a rumbling laugh. He continues his account, pointing the car squarely towards the widening patch of blue sky." ==== "The next morning, I still hadn't left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel, sat down next to a straight guy. He looked me over and recognized me. He began, 'Aren't you the Evangelical and Reformed preacher who spoke in tongues last night?'" Me, I'm still curious that one guy at a CONVENTION can spot another guy at a CONVENTION (presumably, with 1000-3000 guys in suits) and not only RECOGNIZE him, but recite his DENOMINATION. I'm also curious vpw seems to be MISSING A NAMETAG. I've yet to attend a convention where SOME kind of nametag wasn't required, and I've attended a number of them, of various types. The only time I remember recognizing someone like that at a convention, he was dressed VERY different from everyone else. (Full Klingon warrior dress AND carrying a guitar.)

"The Tulsa Tribune notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees [Fahrenheit], and the overnight low never even got down to freezing. December 1951 records in 'Climatological Data for Oklahoma' show only 5/10 an inch of snow in Dec 8 and 6/10 inch on Dec 20. NEITHER date concurs with Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near a blizzard which could stop ALL BUSSES AND TRAINS. Way Corps graduate Barries Hill later confirmed that the rally was the Divine Healing Convention, December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by 'the Voice of Healing' magazine, and that Wierwille stayed at the Hotel Tulsa (which was razed in 1973.) Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport do NOT record a snowstorm at that time. When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts by suggesting that the blizzard was "a phenomenon" or that he "spoke with angels" when he called the airport, train station and bus station. (Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for LYING to him about the weather rather than admit his fabrication!)"

Eli Wallach the Magnificent Seven James Coburn The scary thing is, I remember Eli Wallach FIRST for playing a Batman villain on the old tv show.

"You do speak French don't you?" "Unfortunately no, but I do kiss that way." "Do you gamble?" "Every time I order out." "Have you noticed anything different about him?" "Well, only that he's a foot taller, and he seems to be left-handed now."

Not a sports movie.

Nope, different witty dialog.

[WordWolf's comments in brackets and boldface like he used to have...]

"You do speak French don't you?" "Unfortunately no, but I do kiss that way." "Do you gamble?" "Every time I order out."

That certainly sounds characteristic. A typical statement of serial liars is that a truth isn't properly dressed until it wears a lie. Since the DSM-IV has no definition for "Pathological liar", I can't link to it. I CAN link to "Antisocial Personality Disorder" and "Narcissistic Personality Disorder", however. http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/apd.htm http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/npd.htm We can discuss them both for fun-I'll requote this when we get to the end of the book comments.

You guys are so predisposed to get me wrong that you do it very well. [So says the guy who always insists that we are deficient for disagreeing with him. The rest of us actually CONSIDER whether opposing points of view may be correct. But disagreements with Mike are "always" wrong. ] WW, you are continually trying to make me the subject of discussion here. [Actually, YOU were the one who was making the comparison, Senator. You keep saying that we're wrong for viewing pfal in a rational approach, and not cowering in a prostrate manner before your beliefs on the books. The truth of the matter is that your approach was deficient. You acted in desperation and lashed out frantically. This is NEVER a healthy approach. You could have reached for the Koran, Book of Morman, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, the Bhaghavad-Gita, or Kingdom Come and had the same reaction- "this book is the be-all and end-all. My anguish is over!" Of course, since this was brought up, you want the subject changed as quickly as possible. That is understandable, and even forgiveable. I can see how you reached out in pain and suffering. I don't LIKE that you were hurting. I like even LESS that you've slapped a band-aid on a festering wound, and the solution was never found. I would not wish that on you or anyone else. ] I could deal with it [No you can't. You can only draw attention away from it and change the subject as quickly as possible. ] but why bother. [REALLY dealing with it may bring you healing, that's why. ] When I explain portions of my life it's to help those who want to know the deeper truths of PFAL, not to give the definitive, complete description of my life. [And yet, it gives context to your conclusions and decisions, as would anyone's life. ] I'm not going to bother to fine tune your understanding of me and my history. You'll just take it wrong in your determined effort to discredit what I say about PFAL. ["Take it wrong", of course, for Mike, means "use direct quotes to draw conclusions I don't like." Mike has a non-standard definition of "wrong". BTW, I think you've already discredited pfal quite nicely-I just recap your material so late arrivals can be brought up to speed on the missing prologue. ] Sometimes I will fine tune subjects regarding PFAL that you botch, though. [In your opinion. The ones you skip are badly telegraphed, however. Those you lack answers to get a song-and-dance about you not deigning to answer. You may have outfoxed yourself.... ] I regard PFAL as BOTH a set of keys to understand the riddles of the ancient scriptures AND revelation itself in written form. [It is either figure OR ground. Attempts to treat it as BOTH result in rendering it NEITHER. That's why you can't even use pfal fully like it was DESIGNED to be used- to understand Scripture or even figures of speech. (I remember how badly you botched "condesencio" despite vpw spending a lot of time on it.) ] You seem to think that God cannot engage in the process of giving us keys. [I suppose I "seem" this way because it serves your posts for me to "seem" this way.] You seem to think that if there is a set of keys to the scriptures, those keys cannot be authoritative themselves. [They can be authoritative as keys-authoritative tools.] PFAL is God pointing out to us grads what's right and what's not in the scriptures antiquity has given to and translated for us, and much more. [That is your opinion. ] I'm amazed how dense an intelligent man like you can be, ["Dense", in this instance, meaning "understand Mike's position and disagree". Mike uses a non-standard definition of "dense".] but you are just determined to keep those blinders tightly in place. ["Blinders,", in this instance, means "maintaining the principles for understanding IN pfal, and using them to evaluate-and reject-Mike's thesis." Mike uses a non-standard definition of "blinders". ] You're unable to get the heart of what I say because of your bias. [Mike, I read you like a comic-book. I can even produce entire threads of Mike-speak without you ever posting on them, if I feel like. I WOULD, too, if there was any reason to. ] You are not seeking the truth, you are seeking to present yourself as an analyst of the truth. [ When I encounter information, I ANALYZE it. Otherwise, when I find truth, I would be unable to prove it is truth, and when I encounter error, I would be unable to tell it is not truth. I don't seek to "present" myself as anything. That's YOUR bag. ] Groucho, I woke up this morning with a thought. [ It spent quite some time pining in its loneliness. ] Last night I had a sentence as I wrote my post to you, but was too tired to run with it so I deleted it from my word processor before I finally posted it all. But now I feel better about posting it. [ Here it comes....] I'll admit, this special person stuff is a bit on my frontier of knowledge, so bear with me. I am a little surprised, though, that this stuff isn't well known by others. [We're almost there-we just need to get thru the disclaimer of "special knowledge"...] Here's the line I deleted, but now feel better about. Jesus Christ was NOT one of those special people. He had to learn about God just like the rest of us normal people, from the scriptures. [ For those who forgot, the "special people" Mike posited the existence of are these supergifted people God can't get diddly done without. They are thus entitled to free passes and to get away with what would land other people in jail-plagiarism, rape, etc-which are wrong, but if the felon is a "special person", then it is regrettable but FORGIVEABLE. Whereas any of US should be fired, prosecuted, and horsewhipped for that, the "special people" are entitled to operate indefinitely as spokespeople for God because they are "special people". That's Mike's position. I'm sure he really resents me being so blatant about it, but that IS where he was going with that. Where he's going with it NOW I can't predict. I'm suspecting we'll see a statement like "weakness always brings down strength" or something similar now- since we're running on a similar track now. (Private interpretation.) ] I know this doesn't sit well with many. [ You just made an audacious claim. Rather than just claim "this doesn't sit well with many", how about giving people a reason to think you may actually be RIGHT and not just be pulling this out of your donkey? Hey-if your "argument" makes sense, I might actually agree-which would surprise the HECK out of me, but I reserve the right to agree when ANYONE is talking sense. Was this just a bald assertion, or will you lay a foundation for this position? I mean, you never laid a foundation for the PREVIOUS assertion- that God NEEDS "special people" who get a blank check to sin while they serve God. Without that, this statement is founded on sand even if it's correct. ] The reason for this is our culture is so saturated with mental images of Jesus being God that we still think that way, even though we've purged ourselves of the sentence "Jesus is God" and become comfortable with the sentence "Jesus Christ is NOT God." This is another case of getting the wording correct, but not the idea. WW seems to be an expert at this. [ Mischaracterizing me again, but what else is new? Without frequent breaks to try to paint himself as superior to individuals or groups, or repeating his commercial, Mike would be lost on what he wanted to say. ] Jesus did not bring forth God's written Word, he obeyed it. [ANYONE serving God MUST begin HERE-at OBEYING God. That's one difference between the godly person and the religious person. ] He loved it from an early age and learned to become it, especially when he finally got spirit at age 30. The scriptures were his guide. The special people I've been talking about had to bring it forth, from scratch. [ So then, are you saying that Jesus was an INFERIOR servant of our Heavenly Father because he didn't pen Scripture? That his sinless walk was less impressive than that of someone who wrote some books (by cutting-and-pasting from the books of others) while drinking, smoking and raping? THIS IS A 'YES OR NO' QUESTION. Anyone want to bet Mike will avoid it, then claim later that he answered it? Or will he toss out an insult and pretend this isn't a legitimate question? I'd bet the latter. ] The kind of specialness I have been describing is related to the phrase I put in bold fonts from BTMS above where these special people were NOT schooled to revere the knowledge that comes via the 5-senses. Somehow these people are disconnected from the extreme reliance on senses input and human reasoning, and were able to accept God's point of view even when it clashed with the world surrounding them. Somehow they are willing to go along with God's direct revelation in spite of the usual biological and social inhibitions. [ "The usual social inhibitions" being "felonies are wrong" and "biological inhibitions" being "addiction to alcohol and tobacco are wrong", of course. Since Mike never stops repeating his message, let us not lose sight of it when he pretends he's not presenting it for a moment.... ] How that works I don't know. [ That was unusually candid.] How John the Baptist got spirit in the womb, I don't know. How Baalam prophesied FOR Israel when he was being paid to prophesy against them I don't know. But then again, we don't need to know. All we need to do is read God's written Word, in spite of how much it goes against cultural grains, and learn to accept it. [ Here comes the next point Mike was trying to sidle up to... ] Here's how Dr described these special people who bring forth God's Word. This is from the The May/June 1983 issue of the Way Magazine in an article titled "Peace and Revelation" : "Prophets have never been particularly popular. For example, Jesus Christ observed, as recorded in Matthew 13, “A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.” Prophets are men who dare never shrink from danger and men who hardly ever swim with the stream, the current of the times. Their path is seldom smooth or easy. "The world never looks upon these men as being successful. They never win the competition as the most outstanding citizen of the community or the most popular one. But the true measure of a prophet’s success, class, is the measure of his faithfulness before God as God’s spokesman. A prophet’s success is never measured by how graciously his testimony of speaking God’s Word is received. He neither fears man nor seeks the praise of men. A prophet is a man of God who reverences and respects God first, last, only, and always. He seeks only God’s praise and blessing." Like I said before, this is my frontier of knowledge. I've said what I know best in my best way. If anyone wants to pick it apart for contradictions, go for it. I won't bother listening to the criticism unless it's based on the written forms of PFAL, which I know few here are even close to accomplishing at this time. I'm thinking out lout here in these posts to help myself and to help those who want to know. Those who want to dwell on this area are wasting their time, but they won't be able to waste mine. I'm done with it until I learn more on it from God. [ Ok, here's what I see without even reading carefully.... Mike made an assertion that Jesus Christ was NOT in the "special people" category he invoked. Mike then said that vpw was talking about these "special people" and provided a quote from vpw. vpw said he was talking about PROPHETS. The quotation included Jesus' comments in Matthew 13 about prophets- which Jesus said when referring to HIMSELF. Jesus was getting a bad reception around where he himself grew up, and said "A prophet is not without honour, except in his own country, and in his own house." That's not an isolated statement, either. Matthew 11:9 and Luke 7:26 quotes Jesus saying that he is a prophet AND MORE than a prophet. Therefore, according to all 3 accounts, Jesus was a prophet (and more.) vpw said he was speaking of prophets. Mike said this quote-about prophets- referred to Mike's "special people". If that is true, then prophets are Mike's "special people". It that is true, then Jesus is one of Mike's "special people." Therefore, Mike has produced ANOTHER internal contradiction, since he STARTED this discussion by saying Jesus was NOT one of Mike's "special people". Mike needs to spend some more time on whatever he was working on here. (Which it sounds like he was PLANNING on doing,) but, as we see, he should either use a proof-reader for doctrinal problems or at least wait until he's checked it more closely for errors, before exposing it to the public. Of course, it's not uncommon for Mike to blame me or someone else for the weaknesses in his "argument", which means I would not be surprised when Mike fails to thank me for a 5-second proofread that exposed one major error. (That wasn't even a real proofread as I normally do them, but I'm not in the mood now. Maybe tomorrow.)]

The thing is, this coming back to PFAL, it wasnt exactly a calm period of reflection. As you described it once, I trust nobody needs me to connect the dots there.