WordWolf

Here, templelady... http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_ipolicar.htm I also clicked up an old thread about this. (Okay old wayers 1978).

Someone asked about this old topic....

In pfal, (vpw's class), it was "Believing EQUALS Receiving" that was on the chart in the syllabus and shoved down our throats. You haven't really experienced pfal until you've read it in the original Klingon. ========= Can anyone explain what "Go until you hear glass" was SUPPOSED to mean when lcm would start rambling? I know he took it from football, but I can't find the meaning there, either.

*wild guess* "Presumed Innocent"?

pg-209, vpw on the genesis of the White Book. "'Somewhere in there I wrote the first holy spirit book. I can't remember exactly what year.'" "'I'd been working those 385 scriptures and they began to all fall into place.'" "'We're having the sixth edition printed now of that book: Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. It's a great piece of research. Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit-that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then I worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn't, I dropped. Vale from Florida was the one who taught us about interpretation and prophecy. But he didn't understand the other manifestations. It took BG Leonard and others to teach us healing and believing. But in the holy spirit field, our piece of research is the most thorough and original coverage of the subject. And believe me, I've seen about everything in that field. No one really goes into it.'" "Do you know that three times in those early years people tried to kill me?" he remarks suddenly, facing me squarely. I wait, hoping for details, but Doctor relaxes his shoulders in a barely noticeable gesture, and then launches into a new theme."

No, but I'm waiting for a song I recognize- which usually means rock & roll, and otherwise means pop from the 80s onward.

=================== "The summer of 1953, our whole ministry went up-Dotsie and Donnie and some of the others from Van Wert. We took his whole trip- really learned a lot about the other manifestations of the holy spirit. But he worked from personal experiences. I worked what he taught from the accuracy of the Scriptures. When I came home, I made up my mind that I was going to tie the whole thing together from Genesis to Revelation. So I did, and in October, I had the very first 'Power for Abundant Living' Class. At that time, the Foundational Class and the Advanced Class were together-then whole thing in two weeks. But the syllabus today is basically the same. The basic principles from the Word are the same. The class has filled out. But I knew the greatness of our age-the age of holy spirit and that every truth must fit in the framework of the manifestations. I just had to teach it to somebody." "I taught without a syllabus, but the class was the same. You could throw the syllabus away now and I could still teach it. It's a burning reality in my soul." ============ Ok, here's the timetable. vpw takes Leonard's entire class (not an interrupted one) in the summer of 1953. Let's say it was the beginning of summer to allow for maximum time. 6/21 is the FIRST day of summer. So, figure he takes Leonard's "whole trip"- at least 2 weeks of concentrated material. Let's say three weeks and say he took EVERYTHING. That takes him thru the end of May and into the middle of June. vpw claims he then took Leonard's classes and "tied the whole thing together from Genesis to Revelation", and added Scripture to Leonard's class. If vpw is being truthful, that means he would need to completely deconstruct Leonard's class, then completely rebuild it. He'd need to find the Scriptures to match EVERYTHING Leonard taught. Do you know how LONG that would take? When CG attempted to take the Advanced class (1/3 the material) and improve on it, he worked on it sporadically over YEARS. It would have been at least 6 months of concentrated work- and that was TWEAKING and IMPROVING-not completely taking it apart and building a NEW CLASS. That would have taken one person over a year if working completely alone. So vpw takes Leonard's class, and a few months later, runs his first PFAL class. He has NOT had enough time to build an entirely new class. He had time to make a few cosmetic changes. He had time to memorize blocks of Leonard's class. So, realistically, this could NOT be that different a class. Further, if he rebuilt it, he would have a definite outline for doing so, between DEconstruction and REconstruction. It should have been relatively simple to take the most basic outline, add a paragraph on each session's contents, then hand it off to a secretary for typing and photocopying. That would have been a rough syllabus. Ok, so either vpw told the truth or he did not. He did not have sufficient TIME to have done this in the manner he stated. Further, the 1.0 version of anything is rather different, say, than the 4.5 version. That's because there's years of refinement and improvements over years, and the makers find better ways of doing things. vpw claims the 1.0 version of pfal is largely the same as the FINAL result. Something like saying that decades more work didn't advance it past a 1.9 version. The only reason that would be, is if the INITIAL DRAFT was a FINAL VERSION. Supposedly, he made this in a few months of complete reconstruction. This is impossible. If he was just copying a final version from LEONARD, however, it's possible it was ALREADY nearly as good as it COULD get, thus not requiring major overhauls to improve it. So, on paper, it makes sense that vpw lied and just copied over Leonard's completed class as his own "completed class". That still leaves reality. Those people who have taken both Leonard's class and vpw's class have said that Leonard's class DOES have all the Bible in it, and all of the supposed "original" material of pfal was straight out of Leonard's class. The most ridiculous example of this is that the imaginary examples-Maggie Muggins, Johnny Jumpup and Henry Belocco were ALL from Leonard and just transliterated over. (Snowball Pete may not have been mentioned. However, he only appears once in 12 episodes of pfal, so that's not significant.) In short, there is no reason to believe vpw is telling anything resembling the truth here. He took Leonard's class. He claimed to make improvements on it, then a few months later (too soon to overhaul it), he taught Leonard's class with a new name. There was no syllabus or textbook initially. Over time-and time spent with books on the Holy Spirit field- textbooks "were written" that were Bullinger and Stiles' books with a new name and cover. According to some people, God wanted him to teach "his" class. However, "his" class was LEONARD's class. The only difference for several years was the name of the class and the name of its "originator." It would have been easier to make arrangements to arrange for LEONARD's class than to spend months slapping his name on a transliteration. The only gain for that time was vpw's name added to it. So, then, that would mean God wanted Leonard's class to be taught, but vpw's name attached to it and Leonard's name removed. If you want to believe that makes sense, go ahead.

"After that trip to Tulsa lots of things fell into place. God just keeps giving it to you as you can take it. Someone in Tulsa gave me the name of B.G. Leonard, or sent my name to him, I can't remember which. Anyway, after Tulsa I began to get his monthly newsletter from Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I never read that thing. It was so badly printed, you could hardly make out a word. I never read it for two years. And then a couple of years after Tulsa, I had been working the Word about laying on of hands. I'd worked every scripture and seen how they worked together perfectly. That particular day, just after I'd worked it through, I'd gotten B.G. Leonard's newssheet. Well, I just crumpled it up and threw it in the wastebasket as usual. I did some other things, and later that day I took the wastebasket out to burn the rubbish. As I shook it out, this thing, which was on the bottom, fell out on top of the heap in the incinerator--opened. There staring me in the face was an article about laying on of hands. I read the first two lines fast, and they are perfectly accurate. So I pulled the whole thing out of the fire before it burned and read it through. The whole article was exactly what I had come up with in my months of research. So I went in and called B.G. Leonard on the telephone. He told me he loved me, but I couldn't come up to see him because he was in the middle of a class. So I took the next plane to Calgary. His place was called the Christian Training Centre." ========================== "I never read that thing. It was so badly printed, you could hardly make out a word. I never read it for two years." So, he claimed he never read it. And, he claimed it was ILLEGIBLE- "you could hardly make out a word." "I just crumpled it up and threw it in the wastebasket as usual." In the rubbish, the paper, which was CRUMPLED- OPENED. Unless he had a less-efficient manner of crumpling, he balled up the paper without looking- then it was UNBALLED. Must have been a "miraculous unballing." The article stared him in the face. He read the first 2 sentences, and they were accurate. Ok, start with a barely-legible sheet of paper. Then CRUMPLE the paper. Then uncrumple it and try to READ it. It is now LESS than barely-legible. How did he read it? He said nothing about a miraculous reading or anything. Ok, let's suppose all of that happened-somehow-exactly as reported. vpw works on something, and Leonard worked on something, and they came up with the same results. (I've had that happen before, myself.) vpw's response? He has to go from Ohio up into Canada NOW and see Leonard. Face-to-face. Why? Was it because Leonard could have saved him "months of research", or was there an entirely different reason?

A) I know what you've posted here so far, and take it as a given-unless there's evidence otherwise- that you've represented your experiences and opinions honestly. (And not, say, as an atheist posting and claiming they're a religious person who wants all atheists shot or something.) So, I know a LITTLE-and that, only what you have chosen to share. B) That wasn't 'satire'. That also wasn't 'righteous'. Whether it is BS is a matter of opinion, I suppose. C) People who don't care what I think of them usually don't hit 'reply' when I post. Perhaps you are an exception. If I can offer some unsolicited advice, I'd recommend a brisk walk around the block and not visiting this thread for at least 12 hours, to get a fresh start. Of course, you're free to completely disregard this- it's unsolicited advice. God bless you either way.

BTW, Brother Speed, vpw DID say Leonard relocated him to a decent hotel. I didnt include it because I wasnt trying to retype every word in the book- I only wanted what was germane to the discussion. I'm not sure if you meant "and vpw stayed in the Red Light District". I am a little curious how someone could be in the 'middle" of a Red Light District and not even notice. I mean, back before Times Square was "cleaned up", if you walked down the average street, you found out you were in a Red Light District of some kind. Guys would whisper stuff to passers-by. In broad daylight. I don't know what it was like at NIGHT back then. (Nor do I wish to.) Perhaps the normal "I'm scandalized" reaction of most ministers wasn't quite so hair-trigger in vpw. 'templelady': ====== And yet, you have an example RIGHT THERE to compare it with- Brother Leonard's response. He was within his rights to send vpw home, or at least out of his classroom. Yet he did not. Why? I'm thinking he decided it was more loving to let him stay even though, "technically", it would be wrong. Knowing how vpw would snap people's heads off, this just makes HIM look worse by comparison...

"The Spiritual 40." When you have a chance, please post any info you have on this mysterious group on the "Wonderland" thread. I asked if anyone had any information on them, and so far, none has been forthcoming.

A) You DID jump to conclusions. If you think I attacked you in my reply, you're unfamiliar with REALLY hostile posts on messageboards. You ARE oversensitive on the subject. That really shouldn't count as news to you-it isn't to me. Just take that into account before going on the warpath. B) You did "accuse" when you said "You are protective of the JWs". C) He didn't get "pretty defensive"- he saw an error and posted a correction. You could have said "thanks" and adjusted your complaint, or just taken it and let the subject drop. He also never defended "having their own version of the Bible". He addressed the translation of ONE word and some places where it is CORRECT. He also suggested there were places it was INcorrect. Reread his post and you may see what I mean. D) I always recommend thinking twice before making posts. I've deleted some posts unwritten that way, myself. If the sole reason is "others may disagree", then you're in for a rude awakening: in cyberspace, disagreeing is typical, and on this board, it's unavoidable.

'A la prochaine' date='Oct 7 2005, 02:48 AM' "I'm BACK..... :P "The holy spirit field-that's the field God raised me up for." There's something ABSOLUTELY fishy about this statement. It's too packaged or something...can't quite put my finger on it? OH RIGHT!!!! The smart-A$$, motor-cycle maniac...was being raised for the Holy Spirit field? How could God limit himself like this??? And to claim such a thing? WOWZA...he surely had NARCISSISTIC balls. Wonky :blink:" ======================== The part that still leaves me in amazement is that some people read that statement of his NOW, knowing what we NOW know, and say "Yes, that's correct."

[ WordWolf in brackets and boldface as of old... ]

He said, STILL not posting this nebulous "evidence".

Here is what we KNOW about the book. A) vpw name-dropped Albert Cliffe in "the Way:Living in Love". B) One chapter in "Let Go and Let God" (which, in itself, was a twi SLOGAN) was called "there is Magic in Believing". The early editions of the Blue Book included a chapter called "the Magic of Believing". C) One chapter in "Let Go and Let God" was called "the Law of Cause and Effect". vpw presented believing as if it REQUIRED the object believed for- thus being as simple as "cause" (believing) and "effect" (the object believed for). D) Albert Cliffe was nominally Christian but taught a lot of extrabiblical stuff- in short, was VERY unconventional. Usually, this was a sign vpw would copy his stuff if he found it. (That Cliffe was a spiritualist is a different subject for a different discussion.) E) The copyrights on Cliffe's books are early 1950s- which means they were available for purchase years before their material appeared in the Blue Book and in Session I. ======= That's what I KNOW on the subject. I can CONCLUDE this is pretty conclusive evidence he DID use Cliffe's book without giving him (or anyone else) credit in the Blue Book.

Branded --- Branded --- 1982 Rock and Roll --- Take It --- 1983 We’ve Got the Power --- Sam Pruyn --- 1983 Acts 29 --- Bob Stanley --- 1983 High Country Caravan Humor --- Randy Anderson --- 1984 Ready for Anything --- Acts 29 --- 1984 Athletes of the Spirit --- The Way Int. Orchestra --- 1985 It’s Hot --- Acts 29 --- 1985 Delighted in God --- Harmony --- 1985 Branded: A Lifetime --- Branded --- 1986 So Much More --- Tim Stiles --- 1987 Sing Along Favorites --- 16th & 18th WC at HQ --- 1988 The Way of Abundance and Power --- Singing Ladies of the Way --- 1996 We Are Committed --- ???? --- ???? High Country --- ???? --- ???? In This Thing Together --- Called Out --- ???? Love Always --- New York Way Prod --- ???? Spark in the Dark --- Billy Falcon --- ???? ???? --- Breakthrough --- ???? God First --- Acts 29 --- ???? ============ AFAIK, ALL the tapes you mentioned were carried in the twi Bookstore. There WERE many musicians that WEREN'T, and you could find much of THEIR work by walking around an ROA and keeping your ears open for recorded music (and your eyes for people circling an area.) "Love Always" was a NY Way Productions album, and saw a lot of play and "covers" in NY. The band "Breakthrough" started out with the song and album "Breakthrough", which listed the credits as "Southern California Way Productions". Their first album was soft rock. "A Thought Away" was harder, as was "On Track"-which came out around 1989 and was NEVER carried in the twi bookstore. "Acts 29" was listed as a "B*b Stan1ey" album. It was soft rock, and included a song by the name "Acts 29". It's sequel, "Ready for Anything" included a song called "Ready for Anything" and was credited as "Bo* S1anley and Acts 29". It wasn't a great song, but VERY catchy and I still like the chorus. "It's Hot" was "Acts 29"'s third album, and was probably their best. The title song was how exciting things were at local meetings and people getting blessed. (It had a GREAT guitar riff, for those who like guitar riffs.) "God First" was their fourth. It had a few songs I really like, and a few songs that were twi commercials. It had fewer songs than "It's Hot" did. I think they released one in the 90s, but if so, I know NOTHING about it. (A lot of people got off their duffs in 1989-1990 and produced teachings and songs and all kinds of stuff when they left and no longer could count on an organization- which is why I count that year as the most "PROSPEROUS" ministry year of the 80s.) Branded was the Country/Western group. The humour tape was a complilation. There was a "show" called "High Country Caravan" that basically was a public-access-level showcase. Occasionally there was something about God, but usually it was just entertainment, but entertainment put out by twi, which means it was the GREATEST entertainment... That tape was a compilation of all the comedy skits from the "Circuit Rider". lcm proved once again that he had to be the center of attention again by appearing on it and saying some lame jokes. That leaves "Spark in the Dark" of the tapes I know. Billy was in NY Way Productions, and this was a tape of his stuff. It was rock, and I really liked this one. Billy later released "Power Windows" commercially, which got commercial airplay and had at least one music video.

Templelady, I beg your temperance! Seek not to increase dissension! For you have egged him on and recommended fowl play. *runs*

Ok, let's see....This episode we'll see BG Leonard, what vpw admits to learning from him, what vpw says about him, and the 3 things that vpw finds quoteworthy from BG Leonard. pg-205. === "But how did you get the class started?" I asked him. "It was happening while you were here in Van Wert." "After that trip to Tulsa lots of things fell into place. God just keeps giving it to you as you can take it. Someone in Tulsa gave me the name of B.G. Leonard, or sent my name to him, I can't remember which. Anyway, after Tulsa I began to get his monthly newsletter from Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I never read that thing. It was so badly printed, you could hardly make out a word. I never read it for two years. And then a couple of years after Tulsa, I had been working the Word about laying on of hands. I'd worked every scripture and seen how they worked together perfectly. That particular day, just after I'd worked it through, I'd gotten B.G. Leonard's newssheet. Well, I just crumpled it up and threw it in the wastebasket as usual. I did some other things, and later that day I took the wastebasket out to burn the rubbish. As I shook it out, this thing, which was on the bottom, fell out on top of the heap in the incinerator--opened. There staring me in the face was an article about laying on of hands. I read the first two lines fast, and they are perfectly accurate. So I pulled the whole thing out of the fire before it burned and read it through. The whole article was exactly what I had come up with in my months of research. So I went in and called B.G. Leonard on the telephone. He told me he loved me, but I couldn't come up to see him because he was in the middle of a class. So I took the next plane to Calgary. His place was called the Christian Training Centre." Now here are ALL the direct quotes from Leonard. Please note that, like everyone else, he can ID vpw on sight. "And then he started preaching. Boy, oh, boy, was he with it! He taught his heart out for another hour and a half. Then everyone left, and I just sat there. He said, 'Hi, ya, there, Wierwille, I thought I told you, you couldn't come.' And I said, "Yeh, but I didn't hear you.' 'Well, where are you staying?' he asked me, and I told him. And he said "Why, you're in the middle of the red light district. That's all whores!' " That was ALL the direct quotes from Leonard. pg-207. "He loved me, and I learned some stuff from him. He had tremendous believing. That's why I love the guy." "The summer of 1953, our whole ministry went up-Dotsie and Donnie and some of the others from Van Wert. We took his whole trip- really learned a lot about the other manifestations of the holy spirit. But he worked from personal experiences. I worked what he taught from the accuracy of the Scriptures. When I came home, I made up my mind that I was going to tie the whole thing together from Genesis to Revelation. So I did, and in October, I had the very first 'Power for Abundant Living' Class. At that time, the Foundational Class and the Advanced Class were together-then whole thing in two weeks. But the syllabus today is basically the same. The basic principles from the Word are the same. The class has filled out. But I knew the greatness of our age-the age of holy spirit and that every truth must fit in the framework of the manifestations. I just had to teach it to somebody." "I taught without a syllabus, but the class was the same. You could throw the syllabus away now and I could still teach it. It's a burning reality in my soul." ============

And yet, nobody cares if you yell "crowded theater" in the middle of a fire. === Actually, whispering ANYTHING in a theater will go completely unnoticed. Unless it's just the theaters near me....

"when I had my experience I felt the inside of me was as warm from the light as the outside-when it was over I felt like I had been exposed to sunshine on the inside--so I don't discount this as being a vaild feeling of the manifestation, that said--there are many possibilities 1- VPW actually experiencecd the manifestation 2- VPW wanted so badly to experience SIT he thought he experienced the manifestation and had heard from others how it felt 3- VPW experienced the manifestation didn't experience the feeling that others had but said he did 4- He lied about the whole SIT experience 5- He experienced it but somewhere down the road figured out how to use the experience to make his stature in the eyes of men grow. Personally I'm for #5." I see #1 and #5 as the same option. By vpw's own doctrine, #3 would be the same as well. He said God never guaranteed a feeling. He spoke of people's expectations colouring their results. That's when he spoke about people "slain in the spirit" and so on. As to #2 and #4, I think #2 is possible. I find #4-where it differs from #2-to be too improbable for me to accept. I can believe vpw didn't experience it. I can believe vpw WANTED to experience it. So, I can believe #2. I don't think it's credible that even his desire to experience was a total lie. I think that there was SOME basis for a conviction. The man RATIONALIZED his way thru many things, but I don't think he set out with the express, premeditated purpose of lying. I think, no matter what, he WANTED the Holy Spirit. Therefore, he either experienced it, or wanted to so much he made something up. In this case, I think it is most likely he DID experience something. His story rings true, as written. It's also consistent with his positions in pfal about the Holy Spirit field. He took what WORKED for Stiles and repackaged it. If he'd wanted to fake it, there were earlier steps he could have taken and saved time. Therefore, I do not say I know for certain. My OPINION is that #5 is correct as well. He pursued a geniune experience, had one, then later decided to package and sell it.

Actually, if he had picked a good candidate, and claimed it was for blind loyalty, I would have had the SAME problem with it I have now. I consider that an improper criteria. If he had picked a good candidate, and claimed it was by revelation, I probably would have had NO PROBLEM with that. That's a proper method, and proper results suggest it was actually followed. If he had picked a bad candidate (lcm), and claimed it was by revelation, then, yes, I would have had a problem with that. Evidence would have supported the position that the choosing was NOT by revelation. (Else it would have WORKED.) You've claimed many things and the transcripts haven't borne them out.Please link to the post which supposedly claims the BOT got together and voted on this. You weren't around HQ enough to know what the scuttlebutt was. If HCW said that was the scuttlebutt, I'd say that carried weight. So, all of the leaders trained by vpw, and chosen as leaders by vpw, were all no good-in your opinion- by 1982. Also in your opinion, this has NOTHING to do with the man who trained them, chose them out, and who they believed was THE man of God, whom they followed blindly. Others may disagree.

[ Or else? Someone made YOU the arbiter of what stays and what goes? ] [Well, that's all you CAN do. Next, you see if the staff agrees with you. ] ===== [See, the original post was a joke. Perhaps it was in poor taste, perhaps not. Me, I didn't think it was worth even a full smirk, but that doesn't mean anything. You found someone's post offensive. You reported that post and cited the reasons. (I'm guessing you did that and did it correctly.) That's your part. Now the moderation staff decides if any action is warranted. See, just because one or more posters find a post offensive is no reason to suppose it will "have to" be deleted or whatever. If it DID, a LOT of posts in here would be gone. I think the majority of posts here can be considered "offensive" by SOMEBODY here. Me, I had a problem with a movie post once. I didn't report it because I judged it wasn't worth dwelling on it. If they elect to leave it up, you can ignore that and do something else, you can storm off in a huff, or you can throw a temper-tantrum that some people will find offensive. This is not your board- therefore these are not your rules.]

Mike, you seem stressed. You might want to try a stress reduction exercise. Not the one from the first post- that one you have a problem with. Maybe a slow walk around the block, or feeding the pigeons, or studying cloud formations. I once found tracing a pattern to be relaxing.