Oakspear

If you ever thought that a bench-warming ex-college football player was the "man of God"....you might be in a cult

Welcome wonder1 Make yourself at home here at the ol' cafe! Do you mind if I address your post? Thanks: Well, you are partly right. There are people here who want nothing to do with The Way International, but there is more than one reason: Hurt by another PERSON, as you stated Decided that the doctrines that were taught were incorrect Saw that the general practices of the leadership did not line up with what was taught, let alone what the bible said Were thrown out, and have no choice about having anything to do with The Way International (TWI) I'm sure there are others, but the preceding are some general catagories I invite you to visit the "My Story" forum which is about halfway down the page. Read the stories from those of us who relate why we are now "out". Oh, I wouldn't be so sure wonder. If my employer lied to me, tried to get between me and my sweetie, and verbally abused me the way leaders in TWI did, I most certainly WOULD quit. Actually, now that you bring it up, I AM divorced, in large part due to the machinations of TWI "leadership". But I get your point. If I was to remarry I would not divorce her simply over a hurt. But in a marriage you have made a lifetime committment, who made a lifetime committment to TWI? Not me. They always told us we couldn't join anyway! Perhaps you could argue that a committment to God was made. I doubt that you could make a convincing argument that a committment to TWI = a committment to God. Please feel free to make these arguments if that is where your heart is. We'll pretty much listen to you and treat you nicely as long as you don't say stuff like we're "off the Word", or "outside the walls of Zion" :D-->

I never thought that the abuse, when it came, was godly or right. But I deluded myself into thinking that TWI overall was good and godly and that the abuses were because some leader was "off the Word". Surely everything would be alright when this leader was replaced, or was reproved or whatever. I never suspected that it was top-down rot. I allowed the abuse to continue because I had seen those who fought back summarily thrown out, and I thought that I could make changes from within if I just held on. In fact, I was able to make some minor, local changes, but it never really got better for long. It wasn't until WayDale & Grease Spot Cafe that I realized that the abuse was systemic. It wasn't until WayDale & Grease Spot Cafe that I realized that they were able to manipulate and abuse me because I was IGNORANT. If I had no hope that it would ever get better, if I knew that it was the same everywhere, I would have left years earlier. Once I had seen the light, and had made the decision to get out, I felt much freer. On the afternoon that my region coordinator threw me out, I felt like a great weight was lifted from me. After he had informed me that I was no longer welcome at Way fellowships, he began giving me further instructions. I began to laugh. When he questioned me I told him that he had just removed himself from his position of power over me and that i thought it was funny that he was still trying to tell me what to do!

thanks Steve! all fixed now

Vickles, I don't remember that specific incident, but I do recall Wierwille and Vince Finnegan at Corps week 1981 discussing inter-racial marriages and telling folks that it was not "best", that it did not contribute to the furtherance of "the Word", so people shouldn't do it.

Mike, that is utter b.s.While it is true that when people are blessed they talk about those blessings, that does not preclude talking about the evil that is out there. You observed nothing about templelady's life. You made an assumption based on your own world-view.

TWI was not "officially" racist, i.e. there was nothing in writing or even verbally promulgated that minorities were to be excluded There were minorities involved in TWI, including in leadership positions There were outreach efforts directed at minorities and follow up in the way of available fellowships None of this proves that Wierwille wasn't a racist. A racist can observe all the outward societal conventions but still hold hatred or contempt in his heart for those who are different. Often a racist will have a neighbor or co-worker who is a minority, but who he deems "different" than the rest. Wierwille admits in The Way, Living in Love that he had a problem with blacks since his brother died as a result of a car crash involving a black man. IMHO it is not realistic to maintain that Wierwille was not prejudiced against Jews. It would have been enough to cite Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe as an academic point, but what was the point about constantly bringing up modern Jews' lack of connection to the biblical Jews? So what?

Simple. The Bible doesn't say that. Well, it does say that Jesus is our passover (lamb) and in Exodus 12:5 it says that the lamb shall be without blemish. Some trintarians view this as an indication that Jesus was God: no blemish.

And you know this...how? You can state without a doubt that what was alleged to have been said to Sunesis' friend was not said? Usually you drape your denial of others' experiences and memories with "I don't remember it that way", or "that didn't happen to me". Decided to just get honest this time? Maybe you just want to sign your posts "I think those who I disagree with are full of crap"

From what I've heard, participants aren't hassled about any other groups they might support and associate with. Also, CFF isn't as aggressive about collecting funds. (I'd be interested to hear what their take is on "Christians Should Be Prosperous"). Otherwise I think it's sort of like twi in the early 70's. But since I've never gone to any of their fellowships, I could be mistaken. OM...I think you misunderstand...I wasn't asking for indications of how CFF was kinder & gentler than TWI, but indications of how TWI now was kinder & gentler than it was under Martindale.

Oops...yeah, I shoulda known that :(-->All fixed :)-->

Okay dmiller, well said, makes sense. Here's some follow-up: Despite the advantage that you refer to, why could not a "pre-existant" man have the capacity to be tempted and therefore to sin? Also, how would you address the argument by some trinitarians that only an incarnate God could have been the perfect, unblemished sacrifice?

Rascal: I can't find any posts where johniam blatantly defends the actions of abusers. I just skimmed the whole thread. Minimizing culpability is pretty much rampant to my eye though. Johniam: Why is it relevant what the mindset of the women was? A woman who believes (or has been convinced) that it is okay to "service" the MOG is just easier to abuse. Redirecting the attention away from the abuser to the abused may not seem like defending the abusers to you, but it is excusing them to a certain extent. Whatever your intentions, what you are actually communicating is a callous indifference to the victims and an identification with the abusers.

What evidence indicates that they are "kinder & gentler"? Why do you think doctrinal changes have been reversed and followers have been treated better?

Hey, just rejoice that she was healed! :D--> We can spend a lot of time wondering whether it was God, or coincidence, or George Aar telling her to get back to work ;)-->, or lighting a fire to the goddess Bridget, or Reiki, or what-have-you, but the important thing IMHO is that someone is no longer sick!

Pretty good quickie trailer...Maryjane & Peter having a heart-to-heart at a coffee shop when a car comes flying through the window; next we see Doc Ock at the broken store front. The actor does resemble the comic book Otto Octavius, much more than the movie Norman Osborne resembled comic Osborne. I'm looking forward to the release on June 30th. I've started hitting up salesfolk who call on my store for promotional material to add to the Spidey posters, watches, and action figures decorating my office :D-->

Isn't modern Greek considerably different than Classical and Biblical Greek?

ah...the "kinder, gentler" TWI

dmiller: What you presented was that Jesus was called a man. You then define a man in such a way that it eliminates God being incarnated as a man, or him being pre-existant. But does it say anywhere in the bible that your definition of man is the correct one? What definition in the bible eliminates the possibility that the messiah could have been a man who pre-existed? Or was an avatar of God? Just for the record, I don't think that the bible teaches that Jesus was God in any way shape or form, but there are a lot of verses that don't fit well into the "Jesus didn't exist before his birth in Bethlehem" mold. Another point that has been brought up by others is the fact that Jesus was, according to what we were taught, of perfect blood, and therefore without a "sin nature". In other words, while theoretically capable of sin, and tempted to engage in it, it was not in his nature to do so. So on one hand we have your opinion that the perfect blood and sinless nature did not disqualify him from being fully a "man", and on the other your opinion that being pre-existant did. (I would agree that being God disqualifies him as being a man, although one trinitarian formula describes him as "fully God and fully man".) But can you document your opinion? I don't think Weirwille did when he said "if Jesus Christ is God then we are not redeemed".

I saw the trailer, I saw the trailer! Do I really have to wait until next month?

Fred G was also in Way Prod in the mid-nineties. There was a regular group consisting of Dave L, Fred G (bass), Anthony H (long-haired drummer), and the current Vice Prez (guitar). Michael Martin played sometimes and the choir leadin' guy also played keyboards. Fred was tall, sandy-haired and bearded. Nice deep voice. I believe he ended up with CFF.

Where does the bible say that Christ had to be "one of us" in all particulars in order to have been our redeemer? I mean, say it to the extent that God or a pre-existant spirit being incarnated would not have fit the bill.

I just now got it after reading that three or four times :D-->

At this point, I doubt it would make a difference. IMHO TWI is run by an oligarchy, not by one supreme leader