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Masterfully knee-slappingly articulated T-Bone!!!!!!

Will listen ASAP, thank you Charlene et al!

WOW!!! This fellow is a Truth Teller! The first 8 minutes are worth listening to IMHO- 1 Timothy 5:20 "...rebuke in the presence of all"=all who honored, were associated with him. "So what if he is dead (as of 5/20/20)? What in the world is the Holocaust Museum about? Hitler died (but his victims still suffered and some still suffer)."

Thank you T-bone! I read and re-read your post, and am very grateful for your insights, truth-telling, and kindness. Switching from believing I was the failure to seeing that the counterfeit teachings and practices failed me/us is still taking some time... So good to be coming out the other end of the tunnel tho! Blessings to you and yours!!

OMG, love your last re-titling!!! Even tho my years in twi (14), and in geer-land (18, rather absent-geer-land - where even WAS the dude?? I know in Maine, but writing from afar...) had many positive aspects, the abasements and powerlessness were very inter-woven. And tragically, so was the absence of Jesus, along with the absence of vpw following the basic Biblical principals he taught, as John J shares in the video. I know this is awkwardly expressed, but oh well, am feeling some more emotional upheaval... Thank you!!

If you might indulge me- At least with the #MeToo and #TimesUp movements, criminal charges and jail times are Finally Happening for Predators and Abusers!! It does me good with my recovery to know that vpw absolutely deserved and hopefully would have gotten a Whole Lot of jail time had he been operating in "this day and time and hour"! Lcm too. I can imagine all of their victims filing into the court room, sitting down, and witnessing vpw enter the courtroom. He would have been smart enough to not testify for himself and then be grilled by the prosecuting attorney, but it would have been soooo good to see him squirm as witnesses gave their testimony... Wonder what his legal team would have cooked up??? I know that hurting ppl hurt ppl, and that God's justice is balanced with His mercy. But right now, I say that a Lifetime prison sentence for the sexual and power abuses, the plagarism, and the extreme damage to many marriages and families is totally in order. Am very glad that some powerful ppl are not getting away with the crimes that he did.

I really appreciate those replies! It's the PTSD I am still recovering from (relating to twi and also other traumatic experiences) that keeps my nervous system on high alert at times... But am doing better and not so afraid of triggering; I may trigger but can handle it better now. It WOULD be great to connect w/ one friend to begin with. One male leader in particular I shared a lot of confidences re: marital and personal struggles with, and am not ready to connect w/ him. I did extend an invite to the old friend, and hope to get together via zoom or phone :-) Gotta practice my deep breathing, and take what feels like a plunge; that's what trauma recovering is like tho. Cheers!

Thank you and WOW! And Damn and #$%@& and WT#$%@!!!

Picking up here re: some emptiness... Any thoughts??- So here's my story- old friends, Branch coordinators (w/ twi and w/ Chris Geer) who left town around '93, have returned, and have finally moved out of Chris Geer mode (and into Gerald Wren's sphere apparently). They had married my h and me in '86; us believers here were a very close knit bunch until things began to fall apart a few years later. Several other folks who moved away (geographically or from my fellowship group) are back too and are joining the above folks around GW. One of them connected w/ me, and invited me to fellowship w/ them / listen to GW phone hook-up. Not going to as I mentioned in another post, BUT! There are still attachments from back then that were unceremoniously severed amidst trauma, and I want to reconnect, heal, and re-establish things on present day Realities. But am NERVOUS! Part of me knows that it could be like going to one's 50th highschool reunion- the emotional ties just won't be there any more. But that would be good to process. Plus I think it could be really good to catch up with them; an awful lot of H2O has gone under our bridges! And maybe later, I would want to find out where they are at doctrinally, and enjoy what we do have in common, and allow gracious room for what we don't... IF they can, and do not become dogmatic etc. Guess that is what I am most nervous about... We were all buddy-buddy and kind to each other when we were "like-minded" around vpw-ianism, but what about now? Well, Covid would only permit phone calls for me, so actually going out for coffee won't happen for awhile... Maybe sooner than later tho... Anyone have similar situations? Thanks!

Well. Gerald Wren and wife made their way to Bloomington IN a few months ago. Got invited to listen to a phone hook-up on Weds... Reading DWBH's thoughts here again clarified things for me; nope, not going to fellowship w/ those folks, even though I would really like to reconnect with old friends that have moved back to town, or who are emerging from Cris Geer land and coming into GW's ministry apparently. Altho Who Knows what things may have changed in GW's thinking since 2016 when DWBH last posted I think? Still don't feel led to join old friends around him. Anyway, thank you for being here GSC-ers! Best in 2021!!

Soon enough in the organic processing of healing, naming, finding true safety and Godliness.

Damn, still need to let that sink in further... You are CORRECT I believe. Best logical explanation for ALL of the abuse, narcissism, tunnel vision, and total disregard for the destructive consequences of his actions- that hurt us young ppl he supposedly sacrificed so much for in the All Noble Mission of W O W... Well, just feel like puking it all up which I will soon. Thank you WW.

Perhaps extreme denial also resulted in him being delusional, and believing himself to be persecuted when way corps folks did not revolve their vocations or vacations around his programs...

Whoa HO! T-Bone!! HI HO Silver!! Excellent info re: counterfactual thinking, etc, AND Hell yeah!! re: below. Rippin'!!! Ripping up the enslavement, conscience-dulling strategies, idolatrous holds, etc. You have inspired me to come up with my own "Ride em cowgirl" scenario. It's wrong to not get angry at the stuff VPW did! Putting my conscience on the back burner is wrong on my part! It is a sin of omission! I don't know - is there such a thing as hijacking someone's moral compass? Agreed re: sin of omission, thank you; something to be repented of. And also good Q. I can trace the gradual hijacking of mine no doubt. Amen, excellent re-framing I'd say. Ah! "re-framing" as in carpentry, and as in rebuilding our spiritual, mental, emotional houses upon the foundation of Truth and Love, with the precision and care of skillful kind workers in the true House of God, the Body of Christ, and helping others to do so as well. I have definitely used counterfactual thinking a great deal to restructure broken places, and to bring life into deadened and immature parts. Your post was so rich T-Bone! Gotta move on, but thank you for it all!!

Hey, catching up here, and wondering about something that is healing and fun to envision, I think with some Reality to it anyway - how a small but effective #MeToo movement might have influenced twi starting at corps week/ROA in '80? I can envision myself having recently been seduced by Pa#l Virgil#o, hearing him be excused by vpw from the front stage during the public confrontation at that big top corpse meeting. (Hence this thread.) Huh! So at that point, I could have sought and kept seeking doctrinal and emotional support from ppl like the two women leaders (one a limb leader, the other a large branch leader) that I heard upholding Biblical morality saying that fornication and adultery are wrong, (one earlier in '80; the other in '83 when she accusingly confronted me about having sex with my limb leader, which incidents I had reported myself... Oh well.) Maybe sound clear sexual doctrine could have had some influence; maybe some ppl tempted to follow vpw's example/teachings/inferrences would have received the doctrine/reproof/correction and controlled their libidos; maybe some ppl would not have been sexually abused and avoided that suffering. Maybe folks would have come back to following Jesus, and His oh-so-clear teachings on self-control, the sanctity of marriage, etc... And Paul's teachings too!!! Of course, one way or another we most likely would have had to leave the organization; Jo#n Schoenh#eit was fired less than 6 years later... But I think much good could have come out of declaring and living The Truth, and looking back, such a splinter group could have provided many Godly benefits that Christian movements did give young ppl during the '70s and '80s. My fantasy(?) continues - Maybe some faithful brothers would have joined... Maybe more and more women would have come on board... Maybe a Top Leader or two or three would have repented or spoken out for the voiceless, and begun teaching sound doctrine?? The End. Blessings to you Cafe bro's and sis's.

Oh yes, I am getting very good professional support Grace, thanks. So glad you are doing well too!

I appreciate your coming alongside Grace and sharing. <3 Am very glad you are recovering, and YES, it is a LIFETIME process for many of us. Often only those who have experienced it can truly understand, eh? Best to you!

Hey, am trying to post this in a relevant recovery thread... So! Review- What is it that attracts some ppl to the claims of a cult leader especially in uncertain times? And what are some better paths? My thoughts for starters: 1) Do NOT Look for safety in an uncertain world without tools to discern con artist leaders with their abusive practices. Recommended: GET TOOLS! Look Only to God, or do what grounds You if you need that. 2) Do NOT Latch on to the idealistic idea that ONE human leader or system (theology, culture, political group, denomination, etc) can have THE corner on Truth or Best Practices, etc. DO- Enjoy exploring, debating, allowing for nuances, differences in experiences, cultural backgrounds, etc. Look to the Bible if so inclined, for a look at how the early church enjoyed diversity yet stayed faithful to Jesus teachings and sound doctrine. 3) Do NOT Buy into the idea that sacrificing to/for these idealistic, black-and-white-Truth-carriers is logical and good. Let yourself get burned out, stay in co-dependence. DO find your own balance re: giving and healthy self-care, etcc. Thank you again for providing a good place to process these things!

INteresting, I agree T-bone, and Yes! Twinky.

Wow, JJ, well done! I so ID with the highlighted sections above!! Pretty amazing what we can endure sometimes... So glad you have reconnected well with families, and thank you for processing/telling your amazing Life Story here!

Last post for now! Re: the fear factor for some who stayed in twi into the 2000's (that I know of), and another contrasting person: I may have shared before... When I visited HQ in '09 and had my car tires about 3 inches onto the property, the Security guy told me to leave. I engaged him a little, told him I just wanted to pray there for a bit as I had not been back in 21 years. Got no where of course. Then I asked "What if I don't leave?" The paranoia was very apparent- his eyes just kind of glazed over and he appeared to dissociate; the terror of not doing his job well enough? Outer darkness awaited!! I left. The second time I visited 3-4 years ago around Sunday afternoon service time, and couldn't resist taking pix of some of my favorite places, and got a security fellow who was more feisty; when I explained that this had been my home and I'd been in the ministry for 14 years, etc, it got competitive! He had been involved for 30+ years! I tried to establish that we wre bro and sis in Christ, but to no avail. Oh well, such were my adventures upon returning to HQ!

Food for thought? Hope of interest to some... Am processing a little/lot more, heh heh: from an article based on the book ‘Terror, Love and Brainwashing: Attachment in Cults and Totalitarian Systems’ by Alexandra Stein © 2016 (She quotes other authors from time to time); "There are five features of a totalist system I had identified based on Arendt and Lifton’s work." - 1) "... the leader is both charismatic and authoritarian. ... "Not all leaders want to get rich, gain sexual favours, or grab political power. But all want utter control over others." [Yep] 2a) "‘In the centre sits the Leader, separated by an inner circle who spread around him an aura of impenetrable mystery’. These leaders rule over isolating, steeply hierarchical and closed structures, some with front groups serving as transmission belts to the outside world." [Loyal wow's and way corps were promoters? The early power grabs and reassigning way corps often without their needs/requests being considered; sending out wow's by "revelation"..." Maybe sometimes, I really don't know... 2b) "...followers [way corps in residence, ppl at on staff at root locations], face a triple isolation: from the outside world, from each other within the closed system, and from their own internal dialogue, where clear thinking about the group might arise." [Lock box, Chris Geer's role, other virtual pimps, fire hosing repetition of PFAL and other classes, etc] 3) "The third element of totalism is the total ideology:... The exclusive belief system is controlled entirely by the leader, empowering him or her through the creation of a fictional world of secrets and lies." [Yeah, the dispensationalism IMHO, hidden plagiarizing, vp's perverted sexualized stuff...] "‘After a while, things that seemed preposterous seem normal’ The fictional, invented quality of the total ideology reinforces the confusion and eventual dissociation experienced by followers." Damn! "...no questions or doubts are allowed. Should you voice your concerns, a network of monitors will turn you in for reeducation. Should that reeducation fail, then you are cut from the group, never to speak with your former compatriots again." [I definitely experienced that in Sept '88 when I and others were not going to be loyal to LCM; best friends M&A-ed us...] 4) Here's where it gets pretty deep and psychological; not all in the way were/are thusly trapped I think, but I was...] "For a totalist system to wield complete control, the leader must tap fear. The process of brainwashing that totalist systems engage in is one of psychological, coercive manipulation where the leader or group alternates terror with ‘love’. Bowlby said that when we are frightened, we don’t simply run away from the fear, but run to a safe haven, ‘to someone…’ – and that someone is usually a person to whom we feel attached. But when the supposed safe haven is also the source of the fear, then running to that person is a failing strategy, causing the frightened person to freeze, trapped between approach and avoidance." [Again, obviously some experienced this more than others. I had experienced lots of trauma with my parents and in a first marriage, and had no where else to go... Until I finally recovered enough from the traumas to Look Only to God, begin to question the spiritual emptiness in the Chris Geer fold, and begin to explore other Christian groups.] 5) "Having disabled logical thinking about the traumatic relationship, the leader can then introduce even more of the fictitious ideology to explain away and redirect the follower’s terror. It’s a positive feedback loop with a biochemical element: physiologically, the victim is engaged in an effort to manage their cortisol or anxiety levels by seeking proximity to a safe haven, but never succeeding in attaining adequate comfort. It is for this reason that we can predict that cultic systems will attempt to interfere with and control any alternative attachment relationships a person might have. To fail to do so would allow the follower to find a safe haven elsewhere and potentially escape the emotional and cognitive control of the group. This is the same thing we see in controlling relationships such as in cases of domestic violence, of the Stockholm Syndrome or, frequently, with pimps and prostitutes, as well as in human trafficking." [I did not stick around long enough to experience this, but a few folks I knew did.]

Ah, gotcha T-bone, Rocky, and Galene And thank you waysider for the colorful table-stabilizing idea! Seriously, I suppose some ppl who have never known any Bible whatsoever would benefit from learning about Romans 10:9-10 e.g., SITing, and various other Bible verses. Maybe they could benefit from some truths, and then SPLIT! when the pressure starts being applied. (I know about a friend's son who was being pressured to give up his epilepsy medications and save $$ for their foundational class, and who finally stopped attending local fellowships...) So I will resist the temptation to respond to a request for materials by sending em my ripped up pages with lots of cross outs and comments in the margins!

Well, I connected w/ John Schoenheit et al for a bit about 3-4 years ago, and was talking with a very respected leader in S&TF who teaches/counsels on recovery from various spiritual and sexual abuses. She clearly intimated that for a good while up til rather recently(??) JAL had enough of that "helping himself" mind set that S&TF would not have anything to do with him or his ministry. Of course JAL has had serious health issues, and I pray for him, BUT just sayin... She (am protecting her anonymity), also shared the statistic that 1/4 - 1/3 of all pastors/priests have been sexually abusive of atleast one congregant (had an affair, etc, etc). Not sure of the time frame for that; maybe it has changed?? Just like Drs being in a pressured vocation and being addicted to drugs, church pastors are susceptible to the trusting put-you-on-a-pedestal young women or children, and to porn which can be a gateway to sexual abuse. Am NOT excusing the abuse, believe you me. Just saying that the way is not alone in this... Duh. Also, I encountered an older "believer" my age about 5 years ago who often taught at an ex-way-type fellowship, who would have gladly carried on with me if he could have, and who was simultaneously "witnessing" to someone with whom, yep, he began a sexual relationship. (They finally did get married... He's a good guy in many ways, and maybe he IS changing or has been convicted in a healthy way.) I am just saying that the influence of that deceptive mind set is still alive. And as DWBH has already said, re: the many men who participated in the culture's Help Yourself abuses, If you have NOT APOLOGIZED AND MADE AMENDS, THEN YOU ARE STILL GUILTY OF THE ABUSES.