Raf

Can you forgive you? No, I cannot. As far as I'm concerned, I can just go to hell for all I care. :)-->

John, Thanks for your reply. Yes, it's a very big "if." One might even say "uttermost." "From our flesh point of view" you are correct. But I didn't think we were looking at this from a flesh point of view. Biblically, doesn't it make sense to you that Jesus was speaking of people who never turn to him, that this is the unforgivable sin (namely, rejecting him)? Regarding the usage of fruit and trees in Matthew 12:33, Jesus is talking about behavior and speech, not eternal life (or life in the age to come, to put it literally). In none of the verses which follow does Jesus state or imply that he's talking about salvation. Note the verse: "EITHER MAKE THE TREE GOOD, AND HIS FRUIT GOOD..." How can you "make" a tree good? Literally, you can't. But if it's a figure of speech and not literal, then the figure calls attention to itself, doesn't it? You can't literally change a tree. But you can literally change you. If you insist on the meaning of trees and fruit as unchangeable seed, you will always, hands down, miss the point of this verse. This has become a doctrinal discussion. If anyone objects to that, I'll stop.

Good question. I believe I've already answered it: Let me turn the tables on you: If someone who was once "born of the wrong seed" recognizes his error and turns to Christ and confesses Romans 10:9,10, SHALT he be saved or not? Using the principle of difficult verses being interpreted in light of the clear: it is clear in the Bible that ANYONE who comes to Christ will be saved by him (would you like me to list the verses?). This one verse, which you cite, is the difficult one to be interpreted in light of those clear ones. I'd like to spend some more time studying that verse before delving into a satisfactory answer. In the meantime, please consider my question.

I would agree with you if someone actually got hurt in all of this. No one did. I think it's more in poor taste for this to have happened than it is for me to mock conspiracy theorists. Oh, by the way, HI ZIX!

I think everyone knew I was kidding. :)-->

I do not hold the view that in order to have seed, the devil must be equal to God. I do hold to the belief that there is no category of human beings that God cannot save. There is no class of people who "sold out" to the devil in a way that makes true repentance and salvation unavailable to them. They may not take advantage of it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't available.

Folks, I have nothing to say but see this movie. Forthwith. Now. Straightway. Jamie Foxx is absolutely amazing. You forget it's him. GO SEE THIS MOVIE.

Return of the Living dead was hilarious. It's funny that Shaun of the Dead gets so much attention as a parody when Return already served that function so well (my personal favorite is when the zombies get on the ambulance radio and request more paramedics). I haven't seen Shaun of the Dead, but I've heard there's some pretty funny scenes there too.

I agree that it's more meaningful. I think the question at hand is whether it's more literal. I don't believe in an incorruptible "seed of the devil" in the same vein as Christ in you. I think people are the children of the devil when they follow his example. I don't think it was ever intended to be viewed as unchangable seed, and it is never presented as the "unforgivable sin" of the gospels. The connection is only made by extrapolation, in my view.

First of all, the Abraham's seed reference I made was not the same as the one that you made. I just wanted that noted for the record. Second, there is plenty to suggest that Jesus took their literal lineage, denied it, and replaced it with a figurative lineage. In fact, it makes PERFECT sense. These people REALLY WERE Abraham's seed, but Jesus looks at them and says "No you're not? IF YOU WERE ABRAHAM'S SEED YOU WOULD BELIEVE ME." Now let's look at that: are they, literally, Abraham's seed? Yes. But Jesus says "IF IF IF IF you were Abraham's seed..." Why is he denying what he knows to be true? Because he's not addressing a literal lineage. He's addressing a figurative one, one borne of their failure/refusal to believe him. They are of their father, the devil. Literal father? No. Figurative father, just like Abraham is figuratively not their father. I'm just saying, WTH, that I disagree with you. But I have no difficulty with you continuing to believe what you do. (Yes, I know he acknowledged their physical lineage. But in denying it, he was showing that he was not being literal. Just my opinion).

It had to be intentional. They wanted to up the civilian casualty rate in the states to justify the war on terror.

But WTH, there ARE figurative usages of "child" in the Bible that don't mean "offspring." Best example: Abraham is the father of all who believe. It's not literal. I don't have Abraham's seed in me. It's saying that those who believe take after him. Just like those who are children of the devil take after him: it doesn't mean they have seed that cannot be removed.

That is ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS! Almost as funny as the Church of Scientology running the Cult Awareness Network... BAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The Bible, SRTS.

Schatzenfrazzle.

I've got no desire to pursue that argument SRS. Everyone here knows what I meant by scripture. I'm not talking about the Way Magazine. If you meant "verses," then note that I said examinations, plural, of scripture. I did not mean just one verse.

Ohhhhhh kay then. I'll just wish you a happy birthday. From afar. ;)-->

Now, now... you're supposed to be gracious in victory. Otherwise I would have to say that because of their victory, the Red Sox are now just another team, and when they play the Cubs everyone will be rootin fer Chicahguh.

Satori, I've been trying to figure out how to say that for years and years. Thank you for your post. On the difference between forgiveness and absolution, I agree with it wholeheartedly.

Manny Ramirez got the Series MVP. I think the whole team deserves it. This was history. AWESOME!

The Cards look like they're imploding, although they DID manage to get out of that eighth inning jam (bases loaded, no outs, but in the end no runs scored).

There are safeguards in place. The names of absentee voters are recorded before they're counted. If someone votes early, or on election day, their absentee ballot will be thrown away. Once you've voted, the computer system has you down. If I tried to vote again, I would be stopped as soon as I tried to check in.

Go SOX! 3-0 in the 6th. Meanwhile, South Park is a RIOT!!!

GeorgeStGeorge: Please check your private topics.

Any registered voter in Florida may vote early. The advantages: 1. You don't have to make sure you vote at the right precinct. You precinct comes to you, so to speak. The technology is there so that when you arrive at the polling place, you are given a ballot that matches the one you would have received at your proper precinct. For folks like me, who do not KNOW the correct precinct, this is handy. You DO have to show up in the right county, though. 2. Ostensibly, its purpose is to cut the lines on election day. I don't quite understand this, as the lines on early voting days are longer. But c'est la guerre. 3. It makes it easier for those who will not be in town on Election Day but don't want to deal with the hassle of an absentee ballot (which, it turns out, has been QUITE the hassle here in Broward County). 4. Fewer and fewer states and municipalities recognize election day as a "day off," and the number is even lower for private businesses. On one day, you may not find the time to vote. But over a two week period, it might be easier. One major drawback: Once you've voted, it's just like casting the ballot on Election Day. You cannot change your mind.