Raf

I second that. Thank you see me, for this thread and your courage for facing your convictions, and following through with them. Well, I guess I'll have to be third then, or fourth, or... See Me: you're an inspiration. Thank you for posting.

Oh my, I almost forgot! WordWolf and I (and three others) saw the stage production once from the front row! You could actually see the Phantom spit as he sang (ewwww). But there was no swordfight. The Scarlet Pimpernel had a swordfight. Dang cool one, too. Now THAT musical should be made into a movie.

Hees berfday ees on Triking Day? Kool! Appy Berfday! And Appy Triking Day!

I believe someone requested this. I swiped it from a web site, but I've gotten it by e-mail many times too...

It's not even good enough to be on THAT list. I exaggerate. Its one redeeming quality is the guy who plays Raoul. He's very good, very charismatic. Raoul, and Christine... Its TWO redeeming qualities are Raoul and Christine, or more to the point, Christine's legs, which are cute. They would be more than cute, but she was underage at the time. The Phantom himself, get this, could not sing. By this I mean he wasn't very good. The score had to be dropped an octave at certain points to accomodate his low voice: if you're going to immortalize Phantom of the Opera on film, for Pete's sake get someone who can sing the part! There's a not-half-bad sword fight that ends SO RIDICULOUSLY that you want to just walk out on the movie right then and there.

Oh... my... God... I liked the stage production. Didn't LOVE it. Just LIKED it. It was okay. Very, very classy ending. This movie... how do I put this delicately? ... SUCKED!

Even if she had shot everyone and then herself, no one would have gotten hurt. Has to actually have happened to hurt someone. This, alas, is an urban legend. And if, like me, you've seen a few episodes of Judging Amy, you might recognize this as something that happened to Tyne Daly's character.

It's not Jeff. Do a whois search.

OneLove One God. One post. Welcome!

Jim, He's heading to you in a couple of days. Sorry it took so long. Raf

If this Mal George "prophecy" is to be refuted, it must be done on TWI's terms. Hypothesis: Mal George's prophecy proves nothing. Evidence: Prophecy, assuming it to be real, can be interfered with by the understanding of the person speaking (which is why I Corinthians actually tells the prophets to check each other). Evidence: The Intermediate Class not only taught, but SHOWED how a person's understanding can interfere with inspired utterances (remember the "muck and mire of the world"?) THEORY BASED ON EVIDENCE: Mal George COULD have been speaking for God when he said what he did. THEORY EQUALLY BASED ON THE EVIDENCE: Mal George's understanding, combined with grief and reverence for Wierwille, led him to (innocently and with sincerity) inject his opinion into this "prophecy." Conclusion: Since the two theories are equally plausible, the statement Mal George made, in and of itself, proves NOTHING, and shame on anyone who suggests that refusal to accept Mal George's comment is a refusal to accept prophecy. It is no such thing.

I think the real question of dispensationalism comes in its end, so to speak. The issue is not whether God dealt with different people in different ways throughout history. He did. Everyone knows that. And if we were to agree, say, that those different ways of dealing with man should not be called dispensations or administrations, the central controversy would be far from over. Let's settle some things up front: 1. Before the fall of Adam, God dealt with man one way. 2. After the fall of Adam but before Noah, there didn't seem to be much of anything. "The Word in the stars" may be alluded to, but let's be honest, this time period was rather chaotic. Who was in charge, of anything, anywhere? Right. No one. 3. After Noah but before Moses, we see the concept of civil government instituted by God Himself. Seems to be His idea that men should actually have to answer to each other for the things they do. (2) and (3) are referred to by Wierwille as the "Patriarchal Administration," but even if that's wrong, I think we can all agree that there are differences in the Divine relationship with man between this period and period (1), not to mention the periods which follow. During these pre-Law periods, God can't very well accuse someone of, say, violating the Sabbath or failing to keep Passover, right? There's a distinction. The distinction is not defined by time, but it is marked by it. 4. The Law is given. We all agree that after the law was given, Israel was "under" the Law. Administration? Covenant? Ignore that question for now: it's irrelevant. It was the Law, either way, right? Even when Israel became a kingdom, the kingdom was under and subject to the Law, so the kingdom didn't affect the Law's pre-eminence in their society. 5. Christ is on earth. One year, three, whatever the length of time was. The Law, incidentally, is still in effect during this time period. Is it a separate "administration" or not. I don't know. I don't care. I know, and I think all will agree, that Christ was on earth and the Law was still in effect. At some point at or soon after Christ's crucifixion, the pre-eminence of the Law is gone. Was it when he said "It is finished?" Was it Pentecost? Don't know. But all will agree that the next time period, following the ascension, has different rules from the former. Is it a new dispensation/administration? A new covenant. Don't know. Don't care. We can all agree that it's a new something, because none of us are killing lambs on Nisan 14. 6. And now this post-Christ on earth period begins, and continues until... WHAM! Here's our stumbling block. While most Christians will pretty much agree with everything that's been written thus far (save that which was intentionally left ambiguous), Christians vehemently disagree on what happens next. For many (not all) dispensationalists, this current time period ends with the rapture of the church. We're gone, bye-bye, seeya. Revelation, you may now begin. But other dispensationalists, and covenant theologians, say "not so fast." There is no pre-Revelation (or pre-tribulation) rapture of the church (or "catching up," to use the proper Biblical term). No, we who live in this current age are an extension of what came before, not a "mystery" separate and apart from it. We are grafted onto Israel, not a different animal. The pre-tribulation rapture rests squarely on the validity of dispensationalism. If dispensationalism should be disproven, there is no basis for a pre-tribulation rapture. And there's the conflict. Never mind the thousands of years of common ground: the future is where the division is. The past is academic, almost, because we agree so much more often than not. But the possibility of being misled into accepting an anti-Christ doesn't exist for the pre-trib dispensationalist. The covenant believer is keenly aware of it (and is therefore vigilant, or paranoid, depending on your view. ;)--> ). I'll say this: I don't know with absolute certainty whether dispensationalism is right or wrong. I don't know with absolute certainty whether there will be a pre-trib, post-trib, or mid-trib "catching up." I do know that I would rather be vigilant and wrong than be NOT vigilant and wrong. I don't know if I've contributed to this discussion or needlessly prolonged it, but thanks for letting me say my peace.

I can't think of an example. A journalist who reads an article in one newspaper and "cribs" the idea for his own has not done anything wrong, provided that he does his own research, verifies the contents, writes in his own words, etc. In a case like that, it's only plagiarism if the reporter actually copies all or even part of the other article. Example: I wrote about a man who killed a cop. I learned that the killer was once head of a minor political organization in Texas. I wrote about it. The following day, the Miami Herald wrote an article about the suspect and included the bit about the political organization, which was missing from their previous day's article. There's no question at all that they lifted the idea from my article. But it wasn't plagiarism. They called Texas, verified the fact, got their own quotes, and wrote about it in their own words. That's not only "not wrong," it's absolutely expected. Two writers of Biblical issues discussing the same subject will write similar things. The CES book "One God and One Lord" was undeniably and irrefutably inspired by JCING and probably lifted many themes, but as a research work it was independent, and relied on sources well beyond Wierwille to make its case (in fact, if I recall correctly, JCING isn't even in the bibliography, which I consider a failing on the authors' part). Point is, One God and One Lord is not plagiarism, nor is the Herald's decision to verify what was in my article. Scholars have been reprimanded publicly for lifting as little as one line without attribution (Doris Kearns Goodwin, for example). Wierwille did far more than that. But when we think about plagiarism, we should not be thinking along the lines of "Bullinger wrote about four crucified and Wierwille stole that from him." We should be thinking, rather, "Bullinger wrote ABDFGTZ and Wierwille wrote ABDFGTZ without noting that he was quoting Bullinger." As I said, Wierwille wrote plenty that was not plagiarism. He also wrote plenty that was. In terms of the content of what's written, it makes no difference to me. In terms of Wierwille's integrity, I put it, in my mind, where I think it belongs. I've never contended with anyone who doesn't care that Wierwille resorted to plagiarism. I only contend with those who deny it. It's not deniable.

It's posts she wants... It's posts she shall have...

That's a great tale, Oak. "Brought a tear to me eye" ("Oh shut up"). :)-->

The only grammar book you'll ever need is called... The Only Grammar Book You'll Ever Need. And every writer I know has at least one copy of The Elements of Style.

:D--> I wrote that because I've seen plagiarism denied most often by those who have no idea what plagiarism is, then get criticized (indirectly) for believing that Wierwille was nothing but a plagiarist, which I have never, ever said. I think Wierwille wrote plenty that was not plagiarism, and he wrote some that was. He lifted ideas from others, but by itself, that's not plagiarism. Plagiarism is reserved for when he was so lazy he didn't even muster the energy to hide the fact that he was lifting someone else's work without credit. In the end, the question for us is "so what?" And the answer varies according to the value you place on the CONTENT. Plagiarism does not affect the content of the plagiarized material. It only reflects on the integrity of the writer. Def, Your question is valid, and as someone who has criticized the plagiarism, I appreciate the opportunity to make some points a bit more clear (if they were not already).

THIS IS A FALSE ACCUSATION. Understand? A FALSE ACCUSATION. For the life of me, I can't figure out why Alan Keyes is so admired. He's a crackpot who uses false logic in favor of a predetermined conclusion. YOU CAN REVERE GOD ALL YOU WANT. GOVERNMENT CAN'T. Why is this so hard? I wonder if Keyes has the Ten Commandments up in HIS living room.

I should add that I have no idea how to handle the judge at the beginning of this thread. His reasoning is completely off base, and his support of Roy Moore, while within his rights, leads me to question his suitability for office. But no one would stop him from wearing a cross under his robes. What's the deal with judicial robes? Is it considered a uniform? Is there a code somewhere? What if he came in dressed as a rabbi one day, or an imam? Or a white hood? I mean, something's wrong here, no?

This thread is an awesome thread Its themes run around in my head I ponder it when I'm in bed This thread is an awesome thread. This thread (this thread) is an awesome thread Its themes (its themes)run around in my head I pon- (pon)der it when I'm in bed This thread is an awesome thread.

That was last year's resolution, Hairy. What's this year's?

Well, I guess you already broke that one. :)-->

JCOPS is heavily footnoted, right there in the book, so I think it would be hard to accuse him of plagiarism for it (and even if there was plagiarism in that book, I'd argue it's a minor, minor quibble). Same goes for the Passover book. I want to make something clear, something that I don't think has been made clear before: Getting your idea from somewhere else is not plagiarism. There's a big difference between, say, a. crediting Ernest Martin with coming up with the star information and the birthdate of Christ while writing your own book on the subject; b. Writing about the holy spirit and failing to mention you're lifting whole passages from someone else's book.

Ridiculous. The "slippery slope" argument works both ways: How would you like it if government REQUIRED you to put the Ten Commandments up in your own house, hmmm? Silly? Only as silly as your argument. I have no blinders on regarding this subject, but it's okay that you think I do. (I do have the Ten Commandments up in my house). I love how in the grace administration you want government (the law of the U.S.) to post the Ten Commandments (the Law of Israel), and those who oppose it are guilty of bigotry (!) when you don't even see the need to put it up in your own house? Why do (we) Christians keep expecting government to do our job for us? We want a Nativity scene at City Hall, but won't put one up in front of our churches or homes. We want The Ten Commandments in a courthouse, but not in our living rooms. We want prayer in schools, but neglect it at the breakfast table (if, heaven forbid, we even eat breakfast together). As for private businesses, I think it's hypocritical as all get out to commercialize the Christmas season while eliminating references to the first six letters. If you don't want to be a part of Christmas, then don't have a sale.