Patriot

Freedom of expression.......now, ladies & gentlemen, that is truly PATRIOTIC!

DJS, You are in our hearts and prayers! Keep in mind that, if fear is what honestly keeps you in twi (fear of leaving the "only" true household, of calamity for leaving the walls of protection, of losing friends, being wrong, etc.) then fear is always the wrong motive. Do whatever you believe is God's will, but not due to fear.

Will the last one to leave twi, please turn out the lights?

The Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry. We need to get the knowledge of the word believe what it has to say and leave the leaders out of it. I would say start in Romans and end in Thessalonians and see what we learn just from that . Then after that start a fellowship and teach what you know to everyone God Bless, ckmckeon A hearty and sincere welcome to CkMkeon! You'll find that the range of folks here is as wide as "I don't believe in God, His Word, or that anything good came out of twi" all the way to those who are thankful for some of what they experienced, and dont' totally hate LCM or VPW. Its a wide range, but glad to have you a part of it! Actually, Mrs. Patriot and I do run a loving, growing, hot Bible fellowship in our home. We are still committed to spreading the Word to the world, so it may be presumptuous to assume no one on GSC does. And yes, I also agree that the Bible is bigger than any one man or ministry. Unfortunately, The Way International does not subscribe to that thinking, nor has it. Maybe direct that line to them Where do you think we got this concept of "Man of God for Our Time?" You may laugh, but I saw VERY close up that what LCM said, was considered "Present Truth" and therefore "The Word to our Time." Don't think so? Then ask those still in: 1. Was there actually a holocost in WWII? Or was this "the myth of the 6 million?" as VPW and LCM taught? 2. The first Gulf War (Desert Storm), what was the real reason we went? Was it "To Protect Israel." as LCM (MOGFOT) taught at the AC Special in NC? How many still in still automatically believe that? 3. How many Staff pulled their kids out of the local little league because LCM demanded they do so since his son was picked by a former TWI clergyman's team? Answer - all but one! 4. How many Staff and Way Corps immediately changed their investments because one lunch LCM shared about how you should invest with companies that you believe in, and who are local, and who help the ministry. How many sold their mutual funds since they couldn't guarantee "they believed" in all the companies the fund owned? Don't get me started. Why would people think and take these actions? Because their LEADER told them, and therefore it was the Word to obey. Yeah, I too would rather have it from Romans. If the current BOD would have come outright and said openly, that what was done, and how LCM did it was wrong, I doubt there would be as much wind in the sails of the good ship GSC. Kinder & gentler without intrusiveness? Then they should say it publicly! That would be revolutionary! Since they will never apologize or admit to the evil that happened, I thank God for freedom of the Press, to assemble, and of speech! So we do agree....sort of. Welcome aboard!

Correct me if I am wrong, but..... Even with the 250 mile radius people coming in for the STS, isn't the auditorium still pretty empty (from what I've heard)?? :unsure: Although I was not in that radius, I hated them putting that burden on the people, just to have warm bodies in the audience! If the Word of God they are teaching is so hot, energized of God, and the present truth for that specific week, why do they even need to bring up the 250 radius? Innies reading this....think about it! :blink: People came from all over to hear Jesus Christ and Paul share the Word. They saw when, at those events, hundreds of signs and wonders, healings and spirits being cast out! Hello! But twi has to make an attendance rule. Any healings there lately? Can someone really say that they are redeeming the time, when driving 6+ hours in a day for a tape they will get later that week? :unsure:

STL - I am glad that you felt no ill will toward those twi'ers, nor attacked that which is still dear to them. It's like twi is like a person's momma (a limited comparison) -you don't win anyone's heart by attacking their momma with accusations. Even if 100% of those accusations are true, they don't want to hear them and will not believe them over what momma's side of the story is. I think you handled it right! BTW - just because those folks are in, doesn't make them evil or bad. Actually, those folks who are the Limb contacts for MT were a nice couple when I new them. Wish them all the best, but just not their momma. Not insulting someone else's momma....truly a patriotic gesture! :)

So the rumor has it that twi pulled Uncle Harry due to it showing he utilized debt, and benefitted himself and twi. :blink: Is it true or rumor? Anyone? Buller? :unsure:

Other things that bothered me "Our goal".......whose goal? "The class will allow each candidate".....the class 'allows'. Shouldn't it be the class enables or instructs? "Allowing...allows...our goal....you the privilege...the opportunity..." - it just drips with the air of permission given by us, and twi. "attain the goal (whose goal?) of becoming an Advanced Class graduate" - how about a spiritual can of whoopa$$, who can operate the power of God and bring deliverance to His people? Sounds better than achieving graduate status, eh? Then 17 monthly updates as to your checklist? Heck, even the deadline is a year away! Again, why is it that they didn't put on the checklist being out of debt? Thanks Bagpipes! This is a good example of where things are now, and why not to be involved. Very unspiritual letter, and....unpatriotic?

Oh my, with this candidate letter, where do I start???? First of all, did they send this "candidate" letter to everyone who "should" be a candidate by that time (new grads, etc.), or only to those who actually asked to be one? VERY presumptuous if not requested to be a candidate. I also noticed that the DEBT requirements were not listed here, but "snacks" is. Have they changed their punitive measure? Or did they just leave it out because the people getting this letter haven't been instructed on that punitive measure yet? One glaringly obvious point is, that this letter just seems so unspiritual! No scriputures, no Biblical references to why they actually should take this class and learn about the other 6 manifestations. It was so secular, and so......ick. Just so unpatroitic!

More Quotes on Uncle Harry's Debt "And it seemed from that day on, when I got the papers to the business, that God and I agreed and everything began to blossom and proper (sp?). It was successful every hour and every day. It seemed God was guiding and directing me to succeed, and He was... By that time (1938) I had paid off the $30,000 debt and I did not need my dad's signature anymore because I was on what is called the success road where everybody thoughy I was wealthy - WHICH I WAS." (pg 28 - Need I say anything? God actually directed him, even though he was in sin for going into debt? He was wealthy but had to go into debt to do it? God would bless him and twi by his debt? He never repented of his loans either.) "Monthly I would have an interest payment to meet. Let's say that interest came due on Tuesday night at 5 o'clock. I never missed an interest date. The people I borrowed from were not concerned about my paying back the principle, but they did want their interest on time. IT WAS A DEBT." (pg 28 - no regrets, no repenting, no problem! ) "What's the purpose of having a set time to met my needs? I learned to trust God in a specific way. When Monday night before the payment was due came, maybe I still didn't have the $50 or whatever the figure was supposed to be...that He (God) would see fit to prosper me so I could pay my HONEST DEBT...He never failed me...I had the interest money together right down to the penny." (pg 29 - Debt is HONEST. God helped him pay it off. God prospered him and twi because of Uncle Harry's HONEST debt). *Velly Interesting - twi's guidance today would be for him to sell off his business regardless, so that he could pay off ALL the debt at once...and be a Way Disciple! "I remember the house that this young couple I mentioned was living in. They bought it for $850. Just recently I saw the very same house, which makes it forty years older, sell for $15,000 on auction. Tremendous change of dollar-power." (pg 30 - Again, no condemnation for the mortgages, but noticed that home values appreciate over time.)

I understand that many people may not like VPW, or Uncle Harry, and therefore not his own autobiography. Fine. That being said, I did want to focus from his book on his own debts, and inquire from those in twi how they justify that. TWI's "biblical" stand is that all, all, all, debt is wrong, and deliberate debt is sin. Therefore they have the punishments against those who are by not allowing: -to take the AC to learn 6 of 9 manifestations (so much for the whole armor of God) -To attend any AC Specials (so they can rehash & review) -To hold ANY leadership roles (fellowship coordinators, Way Corps, etc.) -Browbeat any non-leaders into guilty submission, and future financial risks. Uncle Harry's autobiography: "He said I would have to pay him back his $150 because it was sort of a German custom at that time - whatever was spent on your children in education and college, they were to pay back." (pg 20 -student loans so he could attend a business school - probably a good / profitable thing for his life, and beneficial for the future twi, eh? His bookkeeping got him his start in the furniture business where he made millions.) "I talked to my dad about the idea of going into the upholstery business. He agreed that it would be all right to try it. So I asked how much money he could loan me. He said he hadn't any to loan but that he would co-sign a bank note for me.....we must have borrowed around five thousand dollars." (pg 26 - business loans. How did this loan affect his, and twi's future?) "The date was then June 1929. So we three went into partnership and borrowed some money, mortgaged the building and everything else involved...The business was doing well.... I had a million dollars a year turnover. Everything was geared pretty high in the financial realm...I wanted to make money- make it fast and honest." (pg 27 - He used the "M" word! He called it honest! Because of his debts, he was financially successful in 1929, and twi benefitted from it later). "Well, that struck me wrong, because I was taught by my dad that anybody who ever backs you in your debts you must pay back even if it takes the rest of your life. You pay your bills." (pg 28 - Can't help but respecting this ethic about debt. He didn't say they were wrong, but that you should pay them). "Finally, as it wound up, I went to New Knoxville and borrowed $5,000 more. That was at a time when everybody said you couldn't get money...my dad would sign the note with me... In fact, I had his signature on notes valued at three times more than he was worth. But he would never refuse me, his son." (pg 28 - admire his dad's ongoing support for Harry) OK - that is enough for now. We've seen how higher education and business loans can be profitable and beneficial for both the individual and his ministry or church. Where would twi have been without Harry's unreserved giving? Would Harry have prospered as such with a "no debt" stance? Probably would have retired fom Hoge Lumber in his 60's.

Belle, I'm glad that you brought up the Uncle Harry accounts. Those bothered me to no end. Probably a good place to start another thread. Not sure if true, but a friend told me that twi WAS removing all the Uncle Harry books for just that reason. And, by the way, I heard of some BC's wouldn't teach the stuff from HQ on debt because they themselves were so unconvinced about twi's perspective on the debt issue, that Moneyhands actually were suprised to find out that topic wasn't covered To stand against tyranical standards......pretty patriotic!

So the question is, has TWI II really changed..... Kinda hard to say, being on the outside. Maybe it would be best if others still with contacts on the inside had some "red meat" for the rest of us. Personally, for me not being out too long, the answer is both "yes" and "no." :blink: In general and vague terms, the things that I found extremely attractive about twi (the love for people, passion for truth, excitement, joy, freshness, etc.), then the answer is YES - and therefore we left. In relating to the extreme boringness of the teachings, research meaning rehash and review, considering people expendable and like a comodity, having no life outside of twi with the Way Corps being exasperated people who no one wants to be like, etc. - the answer is NO - and therefore we left. Maybe some people changed, which hopefully is a good thing for those still in. However, ask the question why people change? Because something is not working, results are not evident (yet desired) and one acknowledges this. Until twi and the individuals who are in it acknowledge that things are not working, and there are no results (joy, power, dynamic outreach, etc.), then they will not change.

Similar to others, I also am personally concerned that others who are in twi will be looking for someone to confirm the questions and conflicts with twi they are having internally. Because of my background, my involvement, what I was exposed to, and the relative recentness of our exodus from twi (yeah, the WayGB are probably putting all these details together to discover who Patriot is - so what!), I believe that I have much to offer others who will be leaving now or in the future. As I have said to many of my friends (in and out), Mrs. Patriot and I have been in the process of leaving twi for years. It's kind of like how the sun comes up - gradual and not from night to noon in a second. There are people inside who are also in that gradual process. Maybe now it is the debt issue. Later it may be the "exclusiveness" they live in (i.e.believers are in twi and everyone else is an unbeliever). Then the boredom, repetitiveness, micro management, etc. All along the way, they may be "looking at the forbidden" websites, and, POOF - there is someone thoughtfully articulating exactly what they think and feel. How many of you, and I have been there? Well, it is my turn to help. Helping and serving others......that seems pretty patriotic to me!

[ left]First of all, thanks to all those who contributed to this thread. I personally believe that it is one of those topics that those inside are still very very concerned about. Many of them may not base their decision to stand in twi on whether or not VPW received revelation, or stole someone else's writings. To them, they appreciate his teachings and will defend his reputation as if someone called their momma a bad name. However, when the conversation moves to something that directly affects daily life decisions, and what THEY themselves can and cannot do in twi, they will be more apt to reading / considering. Those are the people that I pray will have it on their hearts to "google" search "The Way" and find us here to confirm for them what they have silently been thinking. :) For them, let's keep brewing up some fresh coffee, OK? To those who are still in, and yet searching for some clarity, I pray that God is opening your eyes. Ask yourselves what keeps me in twi? If it is because you are just thrilled with the Word twi teaches, see signs and wonders daily, blessed abundantly and seeing prayers answered....well, the proof is in the pudding, eh? If not....... If it is fearing a lies like "there is just nothing outside of twi" or that you are "turning your back on God" and "you are vulnerable to attack," then keep visiting us here until you realize those were lies of the adversary to keep you where you are. Why not at least check into other groups - like CFF, or a local church. Worst case is you check, and found nothing satisfying. Better, you realize life more than abundant isn't exclusive to those in "the household" of twi. Freedom of fearless thought and of bold choice....that, ladies and gentlemen, is extremely patriotic!

Pretty funny Chef! Here's one - I personally know several Way Corps who ARE actually in debt, and yet still have never told twi's upper leaders for fear of being dropped. So if it is so wrong, why isn't God revealing this to the BOD? Here is an idea - if twi was serious about finding out if their Corps or hfc's were in debt, they should make them get a 3x5 card (flashbacks anyone?) and write: I am in debt I am not in debt, in any way, and have not exploited loopholes, etc. (Loopholes would be like having a brother take out the loan for you, but you still pay on it, etc. Kind of like having just 2 long island iced teas, and or 40oz beers, and saying you were still within the 2 drink limit.) I am in no wise trying to help twi, but this would probably end the debt policy punishment since they would have so many gaps to fill. If the holy BOD wouldn't do this, they should just drop the whole debt punitive measures. So much for their 'spiritual unity' on this topic. Keeping their noses out of other's finances? Now that would be patriotic!

I realize that the debt topic has been covered directly and comes up in so much. That being said, for the sake of the newly out, or reluctantly in people, I believe it is worth bringing up again, and again, and again. It is a topic of considerable contention for those within, because it ACTUALLY has an impact on how twi people live their lives. This is not presented to rant, but to provoke thoughtful consideration (and that is patriotic!). Even when we were in and not sure regarding the debt topic, Mrs. Patriot and I never agreed with punishments for being in debt. [by the way, the BOD wrote the Corps a letter back when regarding all the Corps calling "the financial qualifications" for the A/C, leadership, etc. "Punitive." Boy, they didn't like that at all! So I use the phrase often Most of the Corps that I spoke to, at every level, didn't wholeheartedly agree with it, but couldn't say so.] . Initially I could sort of understand the policy toward Way Corps, since ideally (from twi's point of view), they were to be free to move as their ministries in the Body of Christ were needed elsewhere (foxes have holes, birds have nests...). But when they "punished" even non-Corps and non-leaders in debt by not letting them take the Advanced Class, well, that was just sooo way out! Ephesians 6:11-13 tell the Christian to put on ALLLL the armor of God, in order to stand against the devil. Well (a question to those still in), then why would twi withhold training you in 6 of 9 manifestations until, and only if, you were out of debt? :unsure: I see no conditions (ifs ands or buts) regarding a Christian's personal finances. They themselves teach that it takes ALL the armor / equipment / resources in order to stand. So why hold it back? A minister's job, and a ministry's job is "teaching every man in all wisdom (practical application); that we may present every man perfect (fully mature / instructed) in Christ Jesus." [Colossians 1:28] How can they accomplish this if they withhold practical teaching which followers of twi earnestly believe (as do I) is essential and not optional? Punish people for debt. Why pick on this one category of what they call sin? What about other categories of so called sin? (Divorce? Adultery? Pre-marital sex? Abortion [oh yeah, that's OK with them.] etc?) Let's exercise our Constitutionally-provided freedom of speech, and of religion, which is, dare I say, very patriotic! . What speak ye?

Belle, You sure are right...again! :) Right before Mrs. Patriot and I declared our independence, I still remember the look on one woman's face (we both know her) when she said the oh-too-familiar line "there is just nothing outside of the ministry." I do dearly love her and her hubby, but honestly it just seemed so "Stepford Wife" ish. Soon after me and another young man started talking about the great stuff we heard on a Joyce Myers teaching. She smiled, but was stunned that anything could be learned from outside twi. I do so love many of those people dearly, but I just feel so sorry for them. :(

Ah yes, Uncle Harry! When I was still in twi, I earnestly (pardon the pun) went to his book (which to be honest, I had not read yet) to see how he stood against going into debt, etc. First - he went to school in Lima in debt to his own father. After which, he went into more debts for his businesses. He even goes into detail explaining how lenders wanted their interest, etc. Finally...to top it all off, Uncle Harry said that God had given him revelation to actually GO INTO DEBT in order to remodel the Wierwille family home, and gave an amount he did it for. According to twi's own teaching (again, not to dispute doctrine too much), God gives revelation that NEVER contradicts the written Word, but rather only supercedes it. If debt is wrong Biblically and is the terrible sin that twi makes it out to be, then why is the original treasurer of twi stating in his own autobiography that it was God who gave him revelation to go into debt. That seems like contradiction, and not superceding to me. I would just LOVE an answer on that one from twi. For those still in, consider this and see if you can come up with an answer. Can you all just imagine if dozens....hundreds...thousands of people started asking about that? My prediction is that the book Uncle Harry would then be pulled from twi's bookstore, and eventually those sections would be edited out in a new, "Prevailing Word" edition. Freedom to think free....now that is patriotic, eh?

Another thread to begin on finances later, but...... One thing that I noticed is they never taught "HOW" to financially prosper and live outside of debt. They still, to this day, just teach that it is wrong, and punish people for being in debt (no Advanced Class, leadership roles, etc.) Even VPW (whether you like him or not) shared in his PFAL class about the alcoholic that came to church to find out HOW to get out of what he was in, rather than just hearing about what he was in is wrong. It's been YEARS since they started this standard to adhere to - yet they have not loved their people enough to teach them HOW to prosper in their way. Unloving, unwise, unkind, and unconcerned. Why not inspire their people with thousands of victory sharings in The Way Rag with others who "believed" and now own houses debt free. Another thing (again, I was saving much of this up for a new thread)...again, not to get into a doctrinal dispute per se, but if they so loved and cared about their people why not help them to set up the next generations with financial abundance so that the next generation doesn't have to live like gypsies, bedouins, and nomads? Since the people who seem to be well off are due to inheritance, why not teach about leaving an inheritance? Proverbs 13:22 "A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just." Now that would be prudent....and patriotic!

To this day, I still hate hearing "Happy Ho Ho." It still sounds like a gardening or prostitution convention!

They have been teaching these in the past as "The 5 Vital Signs of a Believer." Not that I particularly disagree with anyone of these from a principle point of view, but what I noticed they left out was "Speaking in Tongues" from their list of the 5....now only listing 4. Wonder if it was just an oversight, or a change in doctrinal emphasis. I vonder vhy? Velly Intelesting......

In light of twi trying to "attract new people".... How many of their foundational classes are only "legal" because of their children turning 12? They may want to try like some banks - open a new account, keep it open for 90 days, and they give you an American Express gift check. If new people will attend their meetings on time for 90 days, give them a new toaster....or something.

Velly Interesting. I've spoken to several Muslims and Jews, who cannot ever consider becoming a Christian because they are so offended with trying to make Jesus actually God. I can still remember this one Muslim woman's eyes open so wide when I told her that I also didn't believe that Jesus was God, but rather the son of God. She actually listened to me, and told me that I was the first Christian she ever heard say that, and that she wanted to know more. Not sure about every Muslim and Jew, but the ones I talked to in the past believed that it was idolatry to make anyone God except just one God (not in 3 parts). As I said, velly interesting......

Does anyone know where they are? If so, are they in or out? They were great folks, and I sincerely wish them all the best! :)