Patriot

Hey Belle, Please pass on our deepest love and best wishes for your friend who finally declared independence from TWI. On behalf of Mrs. Patriot and myself, let him/her know there will be real friends outside who will love them still for who they are, not who they "are with." Please let them know that they are not alone - and I just know that God will do some very special things for him/her to let them know He is still there, still loves them, and has supported them beyond TWI. God did many miracles for us SINCE our independence. We became totally debt free, saw one of my family get totally, and medically delivered from a major accident, and has prospered us wonderfully. For some, leaving TWI is like a balloon deflating (in a good way). All that pressure within just slowly dissipates. The challenge is not feeling guilty or wrong for it. Unnecessary pressure and stress was the norm...yet no loving Father wants unnnessary pressure on their children on a constant basis. Once they realize that, they can begin to unwind, enjoy, and move forward, onward, upward in life with God. Onward & upward....sounds like the Marines on Mt. Suribachi (sp) on Iwo Jima. Hey, those guys were definitely Patriotic!!!!!!!!!!

Once again, twi shows that they have not a shred of concern for their people :( I know one clergyman who, he and his wife served TWI as staff employees for many years. Long story short, they get dropped, kicked to the curb, and have NOTHING....NOTHING....NOTHING....for their retirements. Not sure of their ages, but he is well into his 60's, and unless a big miracle happens, will be working for rent, for the rest of his life. They're still loyal and will refuse ever to go into debt for a house or condo. It's really sad.

Dear S.V., I can imagine how this could be a sore spot :( I sincerely do appreciate you sharing what you went through in this matter. I really hope others who were wronged in this will also speak up for those "innies" who are still searching for truth. My first question is, will the ministry take moral responsibility if and when their followers who obeyed this "sell your house to get out of debt" command from twi's leadership, can never retire, because rent must ALWAYS be paid? That is, of course, unless the elderly live with their children....providing the children will take them....provided they had children, etc. Will they take moral responsibility then? Assuredly not. They will say something to the effect of "you are where you are because of your believing, or lack thereof.....so be an 86-year-old greeter at WalMart." It just sets these people up for condemnation, saying it was their fault due to not believing.

CK- Are you serious???? :blink: You're saying that God closed his eyes to sin in the OT?????? So what was the law about then? God absolutely did NOT close His eyes to sin in the OT. If he did, we never would have heard of prophets like Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. God sent those guys for a reason - because He DIDN'T close them. May want to rethink your answer, because, not to be critical, but it's wrong. You may have chosen for yourself to close your eyes to evil. Do you then think that everyone should also? If so, what if everyone actually did close their eyes to the evil (as you say God did in the OT). LCM would still be president, marriages would still be violated by TMOG, etc. Heck, why stop there! Let's have the police and the criminal court systems also "close their eyes" (since you think it is a good practice) to evil - and let it run unchecked. How would even society be. Maybe your intention was better, meaning let's look at the best regarding people, but how you said it, and attributed it to God was wrong. May want to clarify your answer.

DJS You've got to admit, it is pretty confusing and pathetic :blink: (not picking on you, but rather their flip flop attitude) Debt - it is definitely NOT God's will, but it is not sin either :blink: Isn't the "definition" of sin "to miss the mark."? If it is NOT God's will, then aren't those in debt "missing the mark" of what God would have them to do / be? My guess (for what it is worth) is that they wish they never drew the line in this category. If the people who were (and they definitely were) stomping their foot, and boldly pronouncing that debt was sin in ANY form, and that everyone should sell their houses, etc....if they are now shifting to "debt isn't sin, but is not God's will" there is trouble brewing. How does TWI now say to people, we were wrong, or even "we are changing policies" after hundreds, if not thousands of their people SOLD THEIR HOUSES years ago in order to not be living in sin? :blink: How do they keep those folks on the reservation, yet changing their standard? Finally, if debt is not sin, but "not God's will" either, then why do they still maintain the NO DEBT punishments for people wanting to take the AC, AC Specials, be Twig coordinators, etc.? :blink: Sounds like punitive measures to me (by the way Rosie HATES when people refer to those measures as punitive - even wrote a stingy letter to the Corps about not calling them punitive). Flip Flop, flip flop......not very patriotic IMHO.

G.Tech - Yes, you are correct. The Credit Union does owe the TWI depositor its money with interest. LCM years ago stopped the Credit Union from making any loans. So, if they have no means (the credit union is a separate legal entity from the ministry) to make money via the interest from loaning money, then the only other way to make that money is by reinvesting it in other ways. Since it is a credit union, and employees are required to have direct deposit from TWI into their credit union, the $ must be FDIC insured also. The CU's money is put into debt instruments from other banks & such. That is how they get the $ for the dividends that they pay to the staff's depositors in the CU. And yes, dmiller, I agree. It is GREAT to be out of debt, and encourage (not force) people to live within their means, be thrifty, and prosper. My big beef is against the whole stigma against those who decide to buy a home, etc. How does one put on "the whole armor of God" if teachings on 6 of 9 manifestations are withheld from their people for being in debt? And to date, I am not aware of any 'practical' guidance that twi has given to their people for effectively purchasing a home w/o credit, still saving for retirement while renting, having a home where to live in retirement but not paying for one in your working years, etc. They just have no care or concern for their people. Tell them what not to do, but not what to do.

Exxie, there is no lesser calling. We were ALL called to be royalty - sons and daughters of the King of Kings! You and your family, regardless of any outward notariety, are God's elite....not by your works, but because He made you that way in Christ! I really, really, really believe it!

PS - And to go further, if they really felt that all debt was sin, then, if they were patriotic, they should encourage their people NEVER to purchase US Savings Bonds, since they would be "enabling" the US Government by lending it money for interest. Hey, if all debt is sin, and therefore wrong, then none of them should have any type of bonds, including bond funds in their 401(k)'s and other retirement accounts. I know how their logic will go (I already heard LCM say it before): "The Word says you can lend, but not borrow." Lend to other nations, which in wayspeak means "unbelievers." So, in wayspeak, what is an unbeliever? ANYONE NOT IN TWI - including Christians right in their communities, etc. A cult sees everyone on the outside of their group as "unbelievers." So it is OK to loan to them for profit.

I realize that there has been much discussed regarding the topic of TWI's no debt policy. That being said, there will always be those inside who will be looking for validation to what they already know is wrong in TWI. TWI's NO DEBT POLICY - Debt is wrong, is off God's Word, is therefore sin if it was intentional (regardless of how many times Uncle Harry was in it, and therefore twi benefitted from it). For those who are not yet Advanced Class graduates yet, they need to get out of ALL debt before they can take it (home, credit cards, auto, etc.). AC graduates must stay out of debt, or they are not fit to run a home fellowship for TWI, go Way Disciple or Way Corps, and may not go to any AC Specials (to hear a rehash of old material again). Pretty much sums it up, eh? HYPOCRISY: Unless things have changed, TWI's credit union still pays dividends on their savings accounts, although they do not issue loans. My question is, where does the Credit Union get the dividend $ from??? They get it from banks (2 local ones) that LOAN out the money to their communities! So in summary, twi people are allowed to benefit from the sins of others in their own communities. That's like saying, prostitution is off the Word, and sin, but...if you can pimp and make a profit, go for it . Years ago LCM bragged to the HQ staff that he was changing much of twi's investments away from stocks (which are ownership and not debt instruments) to less risky stuff (in my opinion, he meant bonds, and bank accounts are based on debts to others). Unless they've changed their investment styles, they are profiting on others sins! Pretty unpatriotic if you ask me!

Johnny Lingo - I agree. There were some absolutely terrific clergymen and women who really did make a difference! I remember a clergyman who coordinated Military Outreach named P#%l N*rcr*ss, when I was very new to TWI. I met some wonderful folks prior, but that man changed my life and gave me such great vision as to what I could be and do for God! :) To me, it seems like being clergy is similar to being a politician in a way. Yes, they are in positions of higharchy and authority, but they are supposed to be in those positions for the good of their people.....God's people! I know that some sought the position because they were an "alpha" type person who wanted the control, honor, and respect. For those people, as Jesus Christ said, they already have their reward. Then there were others, like politicians, who came from humble positions, who wanted so much to just give and serve. For those folks, the FUNCTION meant more than the POSITION. They were the ones who didn't want people cleaning their homes, washing their cars, etc. They were the ones who were just so passionate about having the opportunities to be in the Word and help others with it. Yes, many of you indeed had some awful experiences with some ego-maniac clergy. Yet let's remember that there were those who did look at their positions as solemn responsibilities before God, and gave of their lives. People like Wayne Cl*pp, J*hn Shr*yer, P**l Norcr*ss, etc. I think that is fair. :)

Now, LCM was adamantly anti-Israel I've personally heard him (and I would never intentionally bear false witness against anyone, even LCM) rag all over Israel in many ways. Comments like (not exact, but close in content): "We (the US) should cut off foreign aid, starting with Israel." "How would they defend themselves without us....throw bagels?" (kind of a racial slur, eh?) Since he never thought for himself originally (if he did, he probably would have encouraged others to do so), then more than likely he got this anti-Israel adamacy from his father, VPW, or both. And that whole incident when God gave him revelation, during the AC Special while the first Gulf War was on, why George Bush Sr, had us go to war with Iraq. It had nothing to do with Saddam invading a very important oil producing nation for the US, nor his stated quests of taking over the entire territory that produced the oil we need, nor the UN's declarations against him, etc. No no, it was only to protect Israel. Yeah, that may have been part of the plan, but is that the ONLY reason? And why is protecting Israel so bad? Would he rather see the only democracy in the middle east, our best friend there, wiped out? What a moron! And to think I actually regarded him and his rantings! :( Oh, by the way, I also heard LCM once say that VPW said (regarding WWII) that history would have shown that we were on the wrong side, and that Hitler was not bad trying to overthrow the Jewish control of Europe. Whether VPW ever said that or not, I definitely heard LCM vocalize that. Wouldn't that be a heck of a comment to quote him on in the newspapers! Even if the modern day Jews are not descendants of the OT Jews, he really had his ax to grind.

Interesting point - Can't guarantee 100% accuracy, but someone close to the source told me that Dr. S*mm*rv*ll* (retired Marine - who is married to VPW's daughter, Mary) and VPW's contention, and the subsequent non-involvement with twi was due to VPW's / LCM's anti-Israel determination. I remember hearing his Marine sharings of the past. He seemed like a high-quality man, with integrity, who served his country well in the Marines. It must have been quite contentious since he actually married a daughter of VPW's.

My dearest Belle, Of course there will be a next time....and it will be a better time!!! I have yet to hear a good word about Boob and Dooty from anyone....just useless I guess. Wonder if jolly ol' England is better with them? Hope Mrs. Patriot and I can "partake" of the bubbly with you at the next one...the real one! Stay positive - you deserve it!!

I remember LCM's reasonings that the holocaust was fake (similar to the current president of Iran) because of two books: The Hoax of the 20th Century The Myth of the 6 Million Never read them, but I've seen reviews that made both of them seem like wives fables. Love ya Belle!

A tough topic for me. A few months before we declared our independence, Mrs. Patriot and I witnessed one of the most cruel twi weddings. What a nightmare, that haunts me still!!! Maybe you've seen ones like this, but I never would have imagined.... :( A sweet local believer (a real southern belle) was going to get married. They asked one of twi's clergy to officiate. They were told that for it to be a twi wedding, it was 100% a ministry event, and the final say-so was the clergy. I think the line was "A ministry wedding isn't a sonship right." They treated the bride's family like, since it was a ministry event, they had no role in planning their daughter's wedding, but could attend anyway if they would mind their own business. Long story short, the bride's father was so infuriated, he and his wife threatened to hold back the money he promised to fund the large wedding. Much of it had to do with (as someone involved told me) where the clergy was to sit during the reception. The couple had them at the center of the head table, and then the best man and matron of honor next to each of them. It was a large rectangle head table. They did a lot of pre-research into etiquette books to make sure things were done right, and that special consideration was given to the clergyman and his wife. They had a special table of honor for the clergy & his wife up in the front. Was this good enough?? OOOOhhhhh noooo! The clergyman insisted, because it was how he was instructed, that he and his wife were to flank the couple at the rectangle head table, then others in their parties. It became soo contentious!!! Unkindly contentious and combative with the couple and their families. From what my local twig coordinator (who was involved in the whole event), said, HQ and the Trunk were deeply involved in this local event. This huge conflict just tore this bride up something fierce! I remember my own local leadership (a good guy) was out consoling the destroyed and tearful bride, late at night, the night before her own wedding. What a way to spend the night, which should have been such a happy occasion. IMO, if I were that couple, I would recommit their vows in the future to put a better memory in mind (and pictures) just to put a happy commencement on their marriage.

Thanks Belle for stomaching the Way Rag to remind us that we are not missing anything! I wonder if boring people is a sin? They call themselves a "research" ministry, yet it is completely "rehash" and "review." There is absolutely nothing "fresh" or invigorating to the minds of the readers. My young daughter (Miss Patriot) has gone through different screenings at her school because she is handling the material (reading, math, etc.) so easily (yeah, I'm bragging :)). Why? Because, if she stays at a level too basic for her, she would be bored, not push herself to be better. I read these articles, and the same old trite sayings (e.g. "Sincerity is no guarantee for truth" quotes from the same old Blue Book, etc.), covering the same old topics taught in every class, in the exact same, dummed-down manner, ....and you just have to believe that it is having a negative impact on their people (especially the advanced ones). No growth, no challenge, nothing specific, fresh, or deep thought provoking. Boring, boring, boring!

Some have erroneously taught that righteousness may be earned by performing good works. Reading the scriptures for ourselves enlightens us on the difference between God’s righteousness and man’s opinions of righteousness. Sincerity is no guarantee for truth. Deuteronomy 6:25 "And it shall be our righteousness, IF we observe to DO (works) ALL (not missing even 1, even one time) these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us." Righteousness by "good works" which Jesus Christ did, so we do not have to. If someone kept EVERY commandment of God, every time and never missed, that person wouldn't have any conciousness of sin, guilt or condemnation. The problem was, although it was "possible" God knew no one ever would, except Jesus. My point being, by Robin not being specific as to who erroneously taught, she was wrong. If she would have said "Christians," then she would have been right. Either way the whole thing was just so boring, boring, boring, boring.........

(Warning - this is sarcastic) Hold the presses! Just when you thought TWI was out of the "research" field after LCM lost that job, in 2004 they found some "hidden" gem regarding sex from the Bible! In their newest family and sex class (J*e & L*nd* C*-lter taught it), on page 32, finally TWI comes out with: "Sex outside of marriage is not a part of God's plan." and follows up further on regarding adultery in segment 5. Talk about your deep research, eh? I'm sure if VPW, LCM or any of the other past leaders would have been around for that research discovery, things would have been so different for them! Too bad that truth was so deeply hidden! TWI's official start was October 3, 1942. The class came out in 2004 (for argument, let's say October 3). It took them 62 years to actually teach this publicly. Yes, some may say, "I heard VPW teach it verbally back in 1957." Maybe, but the ministry never had a very clear standard wherewith people out of control could be confronted to keep the evil out. And let's face it, the adultery was very evil...period. LCM's big thing was to veil "fornication" and "adultery" by saying it was figurative sexual terminology to describe the idolatry. Why did God needed to say "no other gods" in the 10 commandments, then repeat Himself regarding idolatry by saying "Thou shalt not commit adultery" and "Covet not thy neighbors wife"??? Were all these figures of speech indicating idolatry? Yet no one ever called him on it publicly. As J*n G*&rge used to say, "We teach that which we allow." By the way, I do think the C*<ers did do a good job on what they taught. Calling them fairly as I see them -credit to where it is due, blame where it is due. I just am amazed, how TWI can get the birth of Jesus down to the exact day, year, and within a few hours, but never came up with this Biblical gem that impacts every life, every marriage, etc. Fellow countrymen! What say ye? Speak freely...it is your right, and patriotic duty!

Do I consider myself a minister? Yes. Do I still minister? Yes. Romans 11:29 For the gifts (charismata) and calling of God are without repentance. I believe within the deepest depths of my soul, that God called me to be a minister. Regardless of what twi has done to me or anyone else, if the call was genuine, then He doesn't take it back later. Being a minister doesn't make me any better than anyone else in the body of Christ, nor does it entitle me to anything more than any other faithful Christian. It is about what I do to help and bless others according to the Word of God. For me and Mrs. Patriot, we plan to minister for the rest of our lives. For us, it really really really isn't the title or the position, but rather what we do. It's about serving and ministering - taking care of people. As some of you who know me personally, you know that I'm not perfect, nor have done it flawlessly. Don't need the recognition from twi - it is a God thing. And God has blessed our family beyond words! :) :) :)

Here's my take- Too often "I got them in the Word" is synonymous to "I got them into TWI." "He / She is a believer" means "He / She is involved with TWI" "He / She is an unbeliever" means "...Not involved with TWI, so have no fellowship with them." "Unbelieving Believer" is someone not adhering to TWI doctrines, but is still involved for now. These statements, and the assumptions behind them, IMO have the stench of arrogance. It is assumed that if someone is with TWI, then of course they are "in the Word" and a "believer." It is also assumed that, if they are not, then it is impossible to be "a believer," especially if they left TWI. :( This makes no provisions for devout Christians who are involved with Joyce Meyer, other ministries or denominations...those are all unbelievers due to not being with TWI. The whole morphing of "God (A) is His Word (B)" and "The Word (B) is the ministry (C)" and "The Ministry © is the Word (B)" ....you can see where I am going. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C. Subtle, but a formula for idolatry at its worst.

Yeah, he probably shouldn't have incorporated himself with.....the Christian churches? Then if not with them, then with who? So what would be the alternative? To isolate yourselves off in a little cornfield in Ohio, telling the few that will listen to you that they are the "true household" and "remnant" and that they should join too, then isolate themselves from other Christians, family, etc.? Also, please tell me where your research has found Billy Graham saying that "he has something new?" As a man with the gift ministry of an evangelist, his crusades have been very focused on getting people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. What is so new about that? The same old stuff? At age 19, how far back have you heard Billy Graham's messages to conclude it is "the same old stuff"? :blink: Sincerely, I do not mean to seem to be attacking you, but I do hope you really take to heart what others have been encouraging you - to research for yourself, to be skeptical, not always voicing what others may say (no matter how great they are, parents, teachers, respected ministers, etc.) until it is a clear belief you hold for discernable reasons. I close by giving my apology if I seemed abrupt or critical. I do wish you the best!

T-Bone, you are SOO right! The evil cannot be swept under the carpet! For those still "in" (I would only use the word "innie" respectfully), doesn't it just make sense that nothing resolves itself (how many times have you heard that in twi)? Can you even begin to imagine the scores and scores of women (and maybe men) who had their lives so smashed? How about all those husbands of the wives who were seduced into sexual acts with LCM? And their children who were affected in all this? They say that they just want to move on with the things of God, and not look back. Rosalie said, in her "clear the air" meeting with the Corps at a past AC Special, that LCM had to list out all the names of the women he had "messed" with, and those were then followed up on. If I were her (and if she was sincere and godly), it would be pretty clear to me that there were a whole lotta people who's lives were deeply damaged, and that something should be done to address the evil. I understand that she (from her point of view) couldn't say too much due to giving ammo to others for lawsuits. That being said, maybe a blanket apology, something to the effect of "We know that many people were hurt by inappropriate conduct of LCM, (or of leaders connected with TWI). Since we cannot possibly investigate each situation to its completion, we do want to express our sincere sorrow at any hurt anyone has endured. We are sincere, and committed to fixing the bad thinking and conduct, so that nothing like this comes up in the future. Thank you for your love and support as we....." well, you get the idea. Who would not respect them for at least doing that? It would have shown they actually care about the people that follow TWI. Those of you still in (there are not many), at least admit to yourself, you would have appreciated hearing that. But since they didn't, IMO, it is not about taking care of the people....God's own children who He treasures. Just about protecting the ministry. If it is swept under the carpet, it is still there......and you "move on" with the evil never removed, just covered up.

OK - I've learned my lesson! I started at the last posting on the thread and was going to come in and help CKMKEON in reading a few responses. Reading from back to front, I finally figured it out......sorry. :( That criticism of Billy Graham, at 87, after decades and decades of faithful service the best he knew, is just beyond the pail for me. As Mark & WW (and others I'm sure) did, I also wasted a bunch of time looking at those websites to see their reasonings on why Billy Graham is as evil as any TWI leader. OMG! CKMKEON, is that the best you could come up with? Do you actually believe those accusations that were unsubstantiated? Billy Graham "Disbelief in a literal hell [which we are in now...]" "As a programmed multiple who participates in Satanic Ritual, Billy Graham has deceived everyone." "Billy Graham is a 33rd degree Mason." [Once again, no evidence, just wild accusation ] And one I take offence to is "Billy Graham is still receiving a salary, even though he is retired! [$189,385]...working less than 10% of the time!". After a man serves decades and decades, how much do you think he should get? Should he be poor? Is $60k OK? Maybe $30K? Maybe only Social Security, so he can be admitted into a nursing home under Medicare when his ministry won't take care of him? It is offensive to me that anyone has a problem with him receiving any retirement money after all he did. Personally, I don't think he is getting enough. Hey, as an AMERICAN patriot, I also love capitalism How about the ball players, doctors, lawyers, rappers, even successful car salesmen who make more than he does? Is he required to be poor before he can be "OK" as a minister. Maybe you don't agree with all that weird stuff those websites said, but then you shouldn't have used them to justify lumping in Billy Graham with LCM! And tell me, how many anti-Graham sites have ongoing discussions from people who were severely hurt by him and his conduct? Keep searching for a site that has the participation that GSC has on TWI...good luck! Boy, I'm usually much more mello than than this. Anyone have a cup of decaf?

Personally, I understand the importance of "thinking" and "speaking" the same thing. Hold on, let me explain... Any group, whether it be a religious organization, an army, or even our nation's founding fathers, have to get like-minded and say / think the same thing. That is how they will be successful in their collective endeavor. It is HOW you get to that end result where TWI is deficient. Ronald Reagan said something to the effect of, laws are like hotdogs (or was it sausages), you like the end product, but you would hate to see the process of making it. When the men who signed the Declaration of Independence signed it, do you think that those men were speaking / thinking the same thing? Absolutely. But what went into that? PLENTY of open, honest, discourse, debate, and even arguments. They didn't just move on because one person said, I'm in charge, I said so....so sign. Kind of like LCM's imfamous "well, maybe you don't see that. Well, I do." comments in his foundational class regarding the first sin of mankind. TWI has NEVER been good at banging things out until everyone is likeminded, and thus thinking and speaking the same thing. In their apparent arrogance (like in the topic of debt), they simply come down with their edict, and now everyone is to get likeminded and speak the same thing. They assume likemindedness rather than work hard to achieve it. That is arrogant, like King George! And definitely not patriotic!

Hey, did I hear it right? I thought that RFR said that "research" was only going over what was already? Wonder if its the research, rehash, or review department?