Juan Cruz

I pity the fool who wouldn't jump at the chance to collect dumpsters in Manhattan at 3am. Well, maybe you wouldn't have to be a fool to turn it down.. but I couldn't. A guy who comes to our church does it and he invited me. He drove 75 mph in Manhattan in a big truck in the snow and ignored all traffic safety indicators... you know, like red lights and such. I discovered it was a surprising intellectual exercise. He had to plan carefully to be most efficient. He would leave dumpsters places temporarily and strategically to come back for them later - depending on many other factors -E.g. what Clubs close at what hour & when forklift operators are busiest at South Seaport etc. He was on the phone constantly asking an older, more experienced guy's advice. He took a big plastic crouching lion from in front of a restaurant (it was in his truck's way) and threw it into a dumpster in front of about a dozen bar patrons and employeess who watched, like me, in disbelief. There's a whole world of gentlemen who push garbage around with front-end loaders at dumps and transfer stations all night surrounding NYC. I saw a mountain of Hefties Draw-tite bags at the Essex County (Newark, NJ) Incinerator that rendered me speechless. They've got a grappling-hook-like-thing that picks up enough trash with every bite to fill a big truck. Get the picture of the scale of these operations? More people are handling the Big Apple's trash on any night (7 nights a week) than live in a small city. It's Dante-esque. "I had not known that death had undone so many." Picture those underground-dweller-guys in Lord of the Rings movies. Jealous now? HE: - drank bottled water - knew the lyrics to every song in 107.2 WNEW's mix, - peed outdoors, but out of the wind. -was pretty stressed about other vehicles not giving him the right of way in every situation, rightly or wrongly. -was able to "parallel park" a big dumpster into a parking space on 19th street by tapping and pushing it with the truck in the space of about 3 minutes. -wished he had a nicer truck -got home to his cat about 8am. (started at 10pm. things went wrong) -communicated by hand signals with dump workers. -took cares not to track garbage juice into his truck cab (pieces of cardboard to wipe our feet on) -told me his life story (every disadvantage you can think of, practically) -comes to church every Sunday (after spending his night off, Sat., in bars lookng for real love)

Mike, that is indeed a beautiful tribute. I'm so sorry for your loss. Juan

"1) Does the group have wierd beliefs but doesn't bother other people? If so they are benine (level 1) and should not be of concern." Patrick, a "friendly ammendment".. spell "benign" thusly and your editor will consider you a creme puff to proofread also, "weird" weirdly is spelled 'weird' I get it wrong all the time. Keep up the good work. I oft betimes agree with you. oft betimes don't but enjoy your attitude all betimes. :)-->

Yes, JAL, we know, we were all thrilled to have all those easy answers once ourselves. And now, alas, we have to trudge through daily life like all those other peons... seeking what little light God grants to people without the "keys" to the perfect uninterpreted Word. You know, I wouldn't trade in reality for all the illusions in Hollywood. Actually, I AM thrilled to be in a relationship with The One Who IS based on honesty and intellectual integrity rather than scriptural parlor tricks. I know you wish you could show me how thrilling it is; that's the first step to getting into my life and wallet. No, thanks. Your Way is not my way. Why can't fundamentalists leave the rest of us alone? What bug is up their butt? I know what they think it is. (love) but they have no self-knowledge... it's fear. If they can convince us, that's one more proof that their house of cards will stand (it won't). If they are lucky it will stand till they die..then they will learn what the rest of us already know. There is no 'system' of truth wrapped up in brown paper (or India paper) with thin little red ribbons. Ah, after all these years do I still need to express anger that these false teachers left me with? Or am I righteously angry, like my Lord was at the Pharisees? Is there a difference?

I like Uncle Hairy's "transference by implication" and Imbus' comparison to the Bible School Prez. Didn't Carl Jung teach that our dark thoughts will find a way to express themselves, either in a sound or unsound way? This may well be an example of Vic's 'mental leakage."

I like it when TWI gets lumped in with other cults. It reminds me that I chose only one of the many, many package tours to hell.* Heck, I'm just about dumb enough, I could have gone to TWI on Monday night and Scientology another night - but I didn't, and for that I'm truly proud. I was faithful to just one erroneous way. That counts for something, doesn't it? *(Well, it felt like hell to me. Or, it sure felt like escape from hell when I left.)

I'm sorry... I can't even read this. and the part about Dr. Wierwille would be proud" (!) I do declare, it makes my head spin. Long letters are often a sign of neuroticism... and that's what this is.... fundamentalist neuroticism. "the keys" work as well as they ever did, John, ..fine, for those who wish to remain in a biblicist fog I just read Marcus Borg's "Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time"...now there's a biblical scholar actually worth spending some time with. Warning, not for spiritually emaciated, no-fruit-of-the-spirit, nous in the sand Christians (New Knoxville style).

If my memory serves me right, this was a recording by Pat Boone played over loud speakers, early mornings during the 1971 N.K. Advanced Class -.

Their literalist, "scientific precision" schtick is just so far away from the real content of the Bible that... they ought to just all quit and join a real church -one that may not be so 'magical' about the Bible - but does a h**l of a lot better at obeying it (that's where the magic really is - not in the 'noninterpretation' ha!) . -one that has a structure that safeguards sheep from wolves instead of just handing out pre-filled-in bank deposit slips.

ckeer, Thanks for your story. Unfortunately, similar records of abusive stupidity are all too common -- if 10% of what we read here at GS is true. Of course, we know, anything that finally drives a believer out of TWI and into God's good sunlight is actually good, not evil -- still, it pains one to hear of good people treated badly. It's anarchy, I tell you -- your children are unsafe, and you are responsible - especially now that you've been told. Don't worry about God's faithfulness. God's never failed yet - there's plenty of good light from God's Word rightly divided outside TWI -- believe me. Is there any believer here, who's been out a year or two, and feels God-forsaken because they left TWI? Speaking for myself, I experienced some confusion, sure. But within a short time, I realized how exciting it was to learn NEW things (imagine) about God, God's Word, and God's world. Especially profitable to me was an opening up to fellow Christians outside TWI - this was key to my release from my TWI’s prisons of the unrenewed mind.

AUTHORITY: What organization with more than 10 members and a sizable budget does not have by-laws for all to read? Kids with a tree-house club know enough to make rules -- "no girls allowed" etc.. Otherwise anarchy. "Let all things be done decently and in order." unless you despise authority

2 Peter 2:10 and who despise authority. What authority do TWI leaders recognize other than themselves? Who has oversight over them? Do they recognize the authority of: -The Association of Evangelicals, and their code of ethics? Here is something they could do today - if they had the least bit of shepherding concern for their sheep - but they don’t -an independent Board with power and authority and oversight performing reviews regularly as most churches do for the protection of their members? -each other? -- clergy colleagues commonly perform oversight of each other. -membership? - is anything is democratic? - are the givers of the money represented among those who spend it?(!) This neat trick started the American revolution. Is anyone voted into positions of authority and power - even (especially) over money? -tradition and their sources? They like to think and teach everything came from them. Thus the authority of attribution (copyright?, law?) is ignored. -common decency and honesty? - when someone crosses their nefarious ways, they spread vicious lies about that person. -God? For thousands of years Jews and Christians have publicly glorified God and God's sovereignty over them, when they gather... but TWI threw that all out. To worship and give public glorification to God apparently would draw away from the glory due to the Word (and its teachers). However, they are very religious: (they worship themselves). This all started with Vic who despised all authority but his own -that authority he reveled in and had hissy fits when challenged or crossed. What happens to anyone in TWI who questions authority? 2 Peter 2:10 describes TWI's teachers and prophets - they despise authority... how can they receive the fruits of the spirit much less share them?

2 Peter 2:10 especially those who indulge their flesh in depraved lust, While I am tempted to detail what believers have said regarding Vic and Loy's "depraved lusts" I fear alienating some of the weak-hearted. What has been consistently and independently reported (some under oath) regarding Vic's adulterous methods is base beyond words. Young sisters would be sent to the back of the motor coach only to find Vic. ready to be blessed (with some weird blue light bulb shining). I guess details of Loy's perversions were revealed in Ms. January's court case. They weren't denied, right? I'd change my name if I were he. An ounce of genuine Christianity would issue in public repentance - but alas are they bound in their punishment until the day of judgement? Is anything divine punishment but graceless living? Is a film of a woman trying to make it with a reluctant dog what you expect from your Bible teacher? I was 15 when this was shown. Of course, sex isn't the only depraved lust... but it will do for now, OK?

2 Peter 2:9 the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment Ok, Class, break's over, let’s move on. After some parentheticals containing much traditional information regarding Old Testament stories (that isn’t IN the OT!), Pete goes on to say God knows how to keep the sheep from the wolfies with their sheepish garb. Well, as usual the Lord’s time is not our time. He often seems rather, shall we say LATE! E.g. couldn’t Jesus have stilled the storm BEFORE IT BEGAN? Healed the little girls before she died? etc…. ...showed me how 'off' TWI was before I invested 7 years? In the Lord’s prayer “lead us not into temptation” probably means more like “deliver us during times of trial.” Participation in TWI is a time of trial. Granted lots of people have been delivered and here we are participating in a divine greasy spotty effort to deliver the rest (isn’t that what we’re doing? -oh, that’s another thread) until just one false teacher is sitting on top of the money all alone and welcome to it. Who do you vote for? The unrighteous are kept under punishment until the day of judgement. So Vic and the rest don’t get to really enjoy the spirit and the trip until justice has been done for all the misleading teaching that’s gone down. This might take awhile. You notice how few go back to TWI once out? - TWI doesn’t have the spirituality to appeal to those who’ve been delivered from the trial.

2 Peter 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced against them long ago, has not been idle, and their destruction is not asleep. Deceptive words fueling greed. Oh my, let's see, how about "Christians Should be Prosperous"? which really meant to them (VERY deceptive!) that Christian (i.e. TWI only) leaders should receive well in excess of 10% of your hard earned income basically for doing nothing but figuring out new ways to get more of your money and more of your effort to get more people in to give more money. You can't do that without some pretty deceptive words. Speaking for myself, I was deceived for about 7 years. "God will bless you." These deceptive words were used for other purposes as well.] "If you don't God will abandon you." So desperate to hold onto our giving they were...resorting to using God as a threatening goon! "Their condemnation - that was pronounced long ago against them - that is now not asleep -"seems to me (PI) might refer to the old Edenic condemnation "In that day thou shalt surely die" This might be why, in a ministry, so focused on the holy spirit, that so few if any, are reaping any of the fruits of the sprit. That "condemnation is not asleep." They are spiritually dormant (or dead) - despite all those manifestations - whew! That's a heavy one, Pete. You're saying that they are acting exactly like 'natural men' (and women). Wow! It fits like a hand in a glove. It just goes to show that I Corinthians 13 is the most important of those three chapters (12,13.14). Evil communications corrupt good manners. Since I'm not a Donatist, I'll say that such ill effects accrue to leaders only - but I fear on those who follow, after 6 months say, as well. Real churches don' t have the falloff in joy and enthusiasm that TWIers experience. "Still sweeter every day" can be a reality except for where false prophets hold sway.

2a “Even so, many will follow their licentious ways, “ Thesaurus results: dissolute, immoral, shameless, profligate, wicked Miriam-Webster dictionary: Main Entry: li·cen·tious Function: adjective Etymology: Latin licentious, from licentia Date: 1535 1 : lacking legal or moral restraints; especially : disregarding sexual restraints 2 : marked by disregard for strict rules of correctness KJV: pernicious” apoleia -genitive of destruction “way of destruction” but there is a strong textual variant with a stronger emphasis on “wanton or lascivious”. Well Vic sure fits this, huh? And he taught others to do so. And he never taught not to do so. And many were hurt badly (not the abundant life for victims..but Vic’s idea for himself of the abundant life, I guess). It’s one thing to follow a destructive path for oneself but the false teachers the author refers to teach others also. It was a CULTURE of abusive lasciviousness in TWI. The followers emulated the chief and were not discouraged from doing so. The Bible says plenty about sinners who teach others to follow their example and it ain’t good. Desperate for followers he was. The more followers the better. "World over The World." All this..was it because Vic had such big heart for "Jesus and His love"? Given that we'll all be judged, one can only hope his motivation for gathering such large numbers of followers had nothing to do with power, money (flowing to New Knoxville coffers), pride, or lust. Lasciviousness does not just refer to sex. Behind the beautiful exterior of HQ (a “whited sepulcure”) was a crass materialism and “the pride of the eyes.”

OM, all the same, I'm glad I got out so that I could learn what the rest of Christianity knows. That the gospels are essential to a faithful disciples' mindset. It was a "secret destructive opinion." No one came out and said to us "neglect the gospels." But we did.

destructive opinions continued: I was taught that all Roman Catholicism (past, present and future) is satanic. I was taught that gratuitous pornography is OK. That crudeness is godliness. That pimping for the man of God is righteous service. That the kingdom of God needs its accomplishments to be exaggerated. That community service is a waste of time. That children should be hit with wooden spoons. And teh number one destructive opoinion (toundermine Christain d iscipleshlip royally...) is...... That all charity begins and ends at home. “Home” meaning TWI. All else is "second best." In other words, “don't give a minute to helping those in need.” How's that for undermining the Bible's message !?! But "he taught more true than false." I don't think so. Note how none of these were spelled out in public teachings. It's secretive. Part of LCM's downfall is that he really didn't understand how false teaching and secrecy go hand in hand. How accurate 2 Peter 2 is. Aw Peepull, don't cha see it?!? It just sits there like a diamond!

Let’s back up a bit here. 2 Peter 2:1 “there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions." I was taught that Rock Music was a communist plot. I was taught that Jews today do not really qualify as Jews. I was taught that some people are unredeemable. I was taught the Holocaust was exaggerated. I was taught that unbelievers are “just so much hamburger meat.” I was taught that all other churches were less than truly Christian. I was taught that homosexuals were worthy of death. I was taught I was only safe as long as I was faithful to one ministry. I was taught that adultery, gambling, dope, and abusive drinking could all be parts of a legitimate unrepentant Christian leader’s life. I was taught that only we understood the Bible. I was taught that only we had the genuine “first century church in the twentieth.” I was taught that debt was unacceptable in a Christian’s life. Abortion was encouraged as a standard birth control technique for nefarious reasons. I was taught that a woman’s primary objective is to please her man. I was taught: bullying, ostentatious display, self-aggrandizement, slander, exploitation, money-grubbing, grace-selling These are “destructive opinions.” We’ve only begun. I’m sure those who stayed in longer heard others.

OM, Your ideological stance is revealed in such argumentative techniques as 'knocking down a straw man.' i.e. my introductory parenthetical phrase. Imagine: knocking down one straw man to keep another standing. Please comment on the substantive denial of the Master I DID address.

While some might say Vic denied the Master by publishing "Jesus Christ is not God..." many others of us would site his foolish designation of the gospels as "someone else's mail" This denigration through designation denies the Master His due in readers' lives. The Master's life, teachings, stories, example, sufferings, death and resurrection are the foundation for a Christian mindset. "They will even deny the Master" 2 Peter 2:1 "bringing swift destruction upon themselves" ["In that day ye shall surely die."] I don't think there's a single Christian out there who makes this stupid, stupid spiritual error except Wierwille's' followers.

The purpose of my post was to give space for anyone who sincerely would like to discuss this biblical portrait of a false prophet -who to me, resembled someone I once adored. OK? But now let's just say ANY unnamed "false prophet" OK? ;)--> Then no one needs to exercise their ministry of policing the indignant. For those who agree that someone we once knew was not a true teacher or prophet and would like some biblically based insight into how such a one might have created an awful bondage-filled mess of a cult, 2 Peter probably has something to say to you. OK? Better? For instance: a false teacher often has terrible pastoral skills. They just don't really care about people other than themselves. also, their followers might tend to be sincere and yet quite fearful. After all they are latched on to a wolf in sheep's clothing. ..can be both scary and confusing. In my experience...a faithful high school kid in a real church can understand the Bible better than a 20 year veteran who's been trying hard to grow spiritually under the direction of a false teacher. Now, I'm not saying who, when or where but I've seen this with my own eyes.

Ironically, the chapter of II Peter immediately following one of Wierwille's core pericopes (I Peter 1:21-22) describes his ministry to a tee. Here is a link to the version I read (New Revised Standard Version) : http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=2+Peter+2...es&version=nrsv Anyone else see it? Whoa! Heav-eeee. The parts about angel-denying may need a bit more work than many are willing to do -- but HEY! We're grads! --> On one level.. we do know that Vic DID deny angel help. In the Advanced Class I took way back when, He said, "Since it's "Christ in you," angels no longer have a role in believers' lives." But I think we can do better than that. And that's just one point the author of 2 Peter is making. Does it paint Vic as gnostic? Maybe. (His whole sex thing was gnostic IMHO.)

Unk, thanks for the informative post. That whole mindset of "MOG" is so foreign to mainline denominations that, at this early point in his faithless career, it was probably still just inchoate pridefulness and outsized needyness (rather than his latter meglomania). These, I speculate were the seeds of his faux-Mogiosity. Post-hoc psychoanalysis!! Yippee! Fun and so easy!

Alas, no. But would gladly serve as Deep Throat to whomever if they wish to attempt to uncover the truth regarding this episode of MOGFODAT-gate..